Is Toyota failing to adapt to what customers want?

[tcbaklash]

I don't think Toyota has missed the mark with the current-gen Tacoma at all. I did a lot of looking-into between it and the Colorado/Canyon when I was in the market (bought a hot hatch instead lol) and read that the Tacoma acts and feels more truck-ish...which is exactly why it's not ever coming close to the top on girly man publications like Motor Trend, Car & Driver, etc. while still outselling its competitors. It's more off-road oriented. It's also styled more similarly to American trucks while the GM twins and the upcoming Ranger are thinly-veiled international market trucks.

Though as the Tacoma is now very pricey for a "small" truck, so are all "small" trucks. That's why you rarely see them as fleet vehicles. Why buy a base Tacoma or Colorado when you could get a base F-150 for $25k out the door and carry more stuff?

On the other hand, and I know I'm going to catch flak for this, the Tundra offers nothing above its Big Three competitors for the price point, prove me wrong. Aesthetics are relative. And don't you dare say reliability either because I've seen GM and Ford gasser trucks achieve stratospheric mileage as poorly-maintained fleet vehicles. I don't see Toyota or Nissan even making an effort to get in with the work/fleet/towing crowd. The Big Three half ton pickups have more bed/cab configurations, better power and fuel economy, cheaper base prices, better towing capabilities, higher quality interiors, and more engine and drivetrain options. Brand-engineering seems a bit harsh a term for the Tundra, and I really don't want to come off like a jerk and insult anyone's intelligence, but what does it do differently?

 

[WNY PAT]

I don't think Toyota has missed the mark with the current-gen Tacoma at all. I did a lot of looking-into between it and the Colorado/Canyon when I was in the market (bought a hot hatch instead lol) and read that the Tacoma acts and feels more truck-ish...which is exactly why it's not ever coming close to the top on girly man publications like Motor Trend, Car & Driver, etc. while still outselling its competitors. It's more off-road oriented. It's also styled more similarly to American trucks while the GM twins and the upcoming Ranger are thinly-veiled international market trucks.

Though as the Tacoma is now very pricey for a "small" truck, so are all "small" trucks. That's why you rarely see them as fleet vehicles. Why buy a base Tacoma or Colorado when you could get a base F-150 for $25k out the door and carry more stuff?

On the other hand, and I know I'm going to catch flak for this, the Tundra offers nothing above its Big Three competitors for the price point, prove me wrong. Aesthetics are relative. And don't you dare say reliability either because I've seen GM and Ford gasser trucks achieve stratospheric mileage as poorly-maintained fleet vehicles. I don't see Toyota or Nissan even making an effort to get in with the work/fleet/towing crowd. The Big Three half ton pickups have more bed/cab configurations, better power and fuel economy, cheaper base prices, better towing capabilities, higher quality interiors, and more engine and drivetrain options. Brand-engineering seems a bit harsh a term for the Tundra, and I really don't want to come off like a jerk and insult anyone's intelligence, but what does it do differently?

I’m a former owner of a big 3 truck. I’d say that any prospective buyer needs to look at any reputable publication that tracks long term reliability (durability) of full size trucks and you will find your answers. It may be that the big 3 JD Powers initial quality ratings are equal, but long term, the big 3 trucks simply don’t hold up as well. That was my experience in the 9.5 years and 135,000 miles I owned my 2007 GMC. Having just shopped trucks within the past year, any higher trim F-150 generally gets you an unproven turbo charged 6, aluminum body panels (those just don’t work for people who work their trucks IMO) and shocking depreciation (thanks to fleet sales and huge discounts when inventory builds up on lots). The GM products were off my list because of my own personal experience with my 2007 Sierra, especially GM’s unwillingness to address my oil consumption that was common with the 5.3 (type GM 5.3 oil consumption in to the google search and read for hours). If almost all the 5.3s become oil burners at some point, well that’s just a poorly engineered motor IMO. As for Dodge, even their ZF sourced transmission has issues (see the TSBs and consumer reports), and the Ram shares the shocking depreciation of each of the big 3 trucks. As for MPG, do some reading on the real world numbers people are getting in the domestics, especially when towing, which I do my fair share of (see pic below, that’s a 7500# trailer full of machines and gear, my trucks earn their keep and the Tundra tows a lot better than my old generation Sierra). I buy and keep my vehicles for a long time. I am hopeful to run the Tundra for at least 10 years and/or 200,000+ miles and don’t expect any major issues. I suppose only time with tell. That my opinion anyway.

As for the 4 Runner, the more I read about it, the more confident I am that it will provide us many, many years of reliable service given it’s my wife’s car and it’ll spend 99% of it’s life as a commuter vehicle / grocery grabber. She loves it, and that all that matters to me.

 

[Jetboy]

I don't think Toyota has missed the mark with the current-gen Tacoma at all. I did a lot of looking-into between it and the Colorado/Canyon when I was in the market (bought a hot hatch instead lol) and read that the Tacoma acts and feels more truck-ish...which is exactly why it's not ever coming close to the top on girly man publications like Motor Trend, Car & Driver, etc. while still outselling its competitors. It's more off-road oriented. It's also styled more similarly to American trucks while the GM twins and the upcoming Ranger are thinly-veiled international market trucks.

Though as the Tacoma is now very pricey for a "small" truck, so are all "small" trucks. That's why you rarely see them as fleet vehicles. Why buy a base Tacoma or Colorado when you could get a base F-150 for $25k out the door and carry more stuff?

On the other hand, and I know I'm going to catch flak for this, the Tundra offers nothing above its Big Three competitors for the price point, prove me wrong. Aesthetics are relative. And don't you dare say reliability either because I've seen GM and Ford gasser trucks achieve stratospheric mileage as poorly-maintained fleet vehicles. I don't see Toyota or Nissan even making an effort to get in with the work/fleet/towing crowd. The Big Three half ton pickups have more bed/cab configurations, better power and fuel economy, cheaper base prices, better towing capabilities, higher quality interiors, and more engine and drivetrain options. Brand-engineering seems a bit harsh a term for the Tundra, and I really don't want to come off like a jerk and insult anyone's intelligence, but what does it do differently?

The tundra last a long time. The big 3 do not. It's not even close. It's like comparing a craftsman mower with a Honda. Or a Walmart coat with a Marmot one. Yeah - they do a lot of the same things, but they're not the same. And the reality is that they don't share the same consumer base either. Just spend 10 minutes in a chevy dealer and then in a Toyota dealership. Apples and oranges in terms of customers.

Oh - and the tundra rear window rolls down. The whole thing.

 

[tcbaklash]

For the record, people make fun of Ford for using aluminum bodies but GM and RAM will be throwing lightweight materials in their trucks for their new models and I'm willing to bet that Toyota will follow. Ford might even abandon aluminum beds like they did with the Super Duty. And I don't get where you're coming from saying that the 3.5L Ecoboost is "unproven", it's been available on the F-150 since the 2011 model year. If you don't like forced induction, the 5.0L Coyote exists and it's very robust. As for the Chevy 5.3L Vortec, there are likely 10 million of those engines, common issues are inevitable. One of my past employers (an agricultural operation where trucks go to die) had a few with over 300k miles and no rebuilds on engines or transmissions. The 4.8L Vortec is far more reliable though, hence why it's a popular swap for drag racing.

In my experience, I've owned a few vehicles that were supposed to be "bad" and "unreliable" that have lasted a great deal of time and punishment. And from this, I've found that reliability is relative to carelessness. For instance, I had a 1986 BMW 635CSi with 290k on the ticker when I sold it. One of my favorites was a 1990 Ford Ranger 4x4 with the Mazda 5spd manual transmission, the infamous Dana 28 TTB front end, and a 4.0L V6 swapped from a '94 Explorer. Engine had over 250k miles and the whole truck ran like new except for the inevitable pushrod ticking. Got a lot of compliments on how well it drove, especially off-road. In fact, because of it, I actually like the old school Ford Rangers a lot.

So this is where my statement comes full-circle. It doesn't matter whether a car company has a bad reputation or not, or if they produce legitimately bad vehicles or very good vehicles, repeat buyers will always exist. Look at the die-hard Dodge fans, middle-class Mercedes-Benz fans, Alfa Romeo fans, and I even know a of a couple KIA repeat buyers. People will swear on their favored brand's quality because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not saying that Toyota makes bad cars, but I just don't buy into the "this brand is good; this brand is bad" crap. People who want a reliable car will generally take care of their cars better, and I judge a used car more on the condition of the driver seat than the brand and model.

And now I'm going to get off my soapbox because I'm making less and less sense as this glass of gin gets lower.

 

[WVhillbilly]

On the other hand, and I know I'm going to catch flak for this, the Tundra offers nothing above its Big Three competitors for the price point, prove me wrong.

This is pretty funny.
I looked at new trucks several years ago.
Didn't need fancy, just wanted a truck.

Looked at an extended cab F150. Base, not much of anything in it.
Underpowered, made a lot of noise when you stepped on the gas, everything inside felt cheap. Vinyl seats, rubber floor, no power locks/windows.
$34K, no wiggle room, that was the price.

Then drove a Tundra, any option you could want in a truck and it was an SR5.
Comfortable, plenty of power even with the little V8, double cab.
Price? $34K. Off the lot just under $30K
Traded 7 years later for $27K.

New F150 I saw on the lot a couple weeks ago, $40K.
Vinyl seats, steel wheels, hardly any options.
Diesel F250? $54K and it didn't even have a center console.

I have a company truck, usually some flavor of 3/4 ton Chevy or Ford.
New Chevy Silverado in 2010. By 8K miles all of the body mounts squeaked when you flexed the frame a little, silicone spray would quiet them until the next rain.
By 15K the "chrome" had started peeling off of the grille and had wrinkled on the (plastic) front bumper.
A/C box used to sweat so bad that it would drip on your feet.
By 40K miles the door would groan when you opened them.
Uncomfortable, lots of road noise. Front end was so noisy in 4WD that I thought the bearings were coming out of it.
My current F250 work truck? In the shop again, nearly $10K in repairs in the lat 3 years.
Third set of rear calipers/rotors/pads in 40K miles. Calipers leaking, rear transfer case seal leaking, axle seal leaking (axle rebuilt 2 years ago)
Front end rebuilt every 30K miles.
Highway driven truck, not abused, doesn't haul heavy loads, rarely tows.

Tell me again how awesome them Big 3 trucks are.

 

[TrDpRo_J]

As has been mentioned, latest tech, bells and whistles at some point will get everyone to bite, but reliability usually wins out in the end. Toyota doesn't become the giant it is without putting reliability over the flashy stuff.

I totally agree, I sold my BMW X5M because it was for a lack of better words a POS - further more it cost 90k off the lot, I went on to selling it for 28k 4years later. In that time it racked up 6 recalls which were on going.

I can honestly say its hard to call Toyota overpriced with my last SUV experience and given that you can by an SUV for 200k these days which is proposturous. My T4R cost me less that 50% of my X and after 5 months of ownership I don't feel like I've got 50% less vehicle. This is also my first Toyota btw, I've always had Audi's, BM's and other European cars because in the UK that is what we generally drive.

 

[WNY PAT]

For the record, people make fun of Ford for using aluminum bodies but GM and RAM will be throwing lightweight materials in their trucks for their new models and I'm willing to bet that Toyota will follow. Ford might even abandon aluminum beds like they did with the Super Duty. And I don't get where you're coming from saying that the 3.5L Ecoboost is "unproven", it's been available on the F-150 since the 2011 model year. If you don't like forced induction, the 5.0L Coyote exists and it's very robust. As for the Chevy 5.3L Vortec, there are likely 10 million of those engines, common issues are inevitable. One of my past employers (an agricultural operation where trucks go to die) had a few with over 300k miles and no rebuilds on engines or transmissions. The 4.8L Vortec is far more reliable though, hence why it's a popular swap for drag racing.

In my experience, I've owned a few vehicles that were supposed to be "bad" and "unreliable" that have lasted a great deal of time and punishment. And from this, I've found that reliability is relative to carelessness. For instance, I had a 1986 BMW 635CSi with 290k on the ticker when I sold it. One of my favorites was a 1990 Ford Ranger 4x4 with the Mazda 5spd manual transmission, the infamous Dana 28 TTB front end, and a 4.0L V6 swapped from a '94 Explorer. Engine had over 250k miles and the whole truck ran like new except for the inevitable pushrod ticking. Got a lot of compliments on how well it drove, especially off-road. In fact, because of it, I actually like the old school Ford Rangers a lot.

So this is where my statement comes full-circle. It doesn't matter whether a car company has a bad reputation or not, or if they produce legitimately bad vehicles or very good vehicles, repeat buyers will always exist. Look at the die-hard Dodge fans, middle-class Mercedes-Benz fans, Alfa Romeo fans, and I even know a of a couple KIA repeat buyers. People will swear on their favored brand's quality because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Not saying that Toyota makes bad cars, but I just don't buy into the "this brand is good; this brand is bad" crap. People who want a reliable car will generally take care of their cars better, and I judge a used car more on the condition of the driver seat than the brand and model.

And now I'm going to get off my soapbox because I'm making less and less sense as this glass of gin gets lower.

Not bashing Ford, but the eco boost motor has only been around for going on 8 years. That’s doesnt seem long to this old guy. The 5.0 Coyote motor puts down some power (more than the Tundra IIRC). I was told to get the best towing package, I would have needed the 3.5. Maybe that’s true, maybe it’s not. And the new F150 has an even newer 10 speed automatic which worries me too. Those are things that gave me pause about the F150. Ram just can’t seem to get the transmission issues straightened out, and IIRC, it’s a ZF sourced transmission. Rambdoesnt have a great record when it comes to long term reliability either, although I think the 5.7 Hemi is a solid motor and no one has a nicer interior. Either way, I hope to have this Tundra a good long time and for a lot of miles. By 2028, I hope I still have some old school choices, but as you said, maybe all the manufacturers will follow suit with lightweight materials. I’ll be approaching granddaddy age at that point and will probably feel even more uncomfortable with all that new fangled technology that’s on the horizon. My glass of whiskey is getting low, so cheers!

 

[Jetboy]

Fortunately for us - someone keeps track of hundreds of thousands of vehicles and repairs for decades. So we have real reliable data. And... the results are what we expect from experience.

Compared to Ford

 

[WVhillbilly]

Facts have no place here, we are arguing about vehicles. :bounce:

 

[Toffees]

I totally agree, I sold my BMW X5M because it was for a lack of better words a POS - further more it cost 90k off the lot, I went on to selling it for 28k 4years later. In that time it racked up 6 recalls which were on going.

I can honestly say its hard to call Toyota overpriced with my last SUV experience and given that you can by an SUV for 200k these days which is proposturous. My T4R cost me less that 50% of my X and after 5 months of ownership I don't feel like I've got 50% less vehicle. This is also my first Toyota btw, I've always had Audi's, BM's and other European cars because in the UK that is what we generally drive.

Great balls, that's $18K depreciation a year! That's even higher than the service costs on an out of warranty BMW!

 

[Toffees]

hey, at least they're improving?

 

[TrDpRo_J]

Great balls, that's $18K depreciation a year! That's even higher than the service costs on an out of warranty BMW!

Quite honestly I moved to the US and opted for a platform that I knew, I really wanted a RS6 wagon but you guys don't get any decent wagons. Being more of a performance car guy I made the assumption that BMW's were all as reliable as the popular 35i N55/ platform. Lesson learned :wof:

Taking into account resale and type of driving that can be done stateside I won't bother dailying anything like that again, Toyota really seems to have that down.

Bottom line, all the bells and whistles are fine but when you can't enjoy a drive in movie without your car crying about battery drain what is the point? maybe I'm just getting old :dizzy:

 

[TacoRunn0517]

Fortunately for us - someone keeps track of hundreds of thousands of vehicles and repairs for decades. So we have real reliable data. And... the results are what we expect from experience.

The people who complain about Toyota probably know this stuff and just ignore it just to make their point. Every top brand digs out a niche to differentiate itself from the rest the of the market. For Toyota, it has always been reliability first. Does it mean that they get right every single time? No. But as you have shown, they seems to have the "reliability" thing down pat. No company is going to be good at EVERYTHING. You don't make money doing that.

 

[Frederick1]

I went over to Toyota because of the reliability and the way they hold their value. Too many times I paid big bucks for a GM or Ford and when trade-in time came they were worthless! I went to the local Toyota dealer and found many used vehicles selling for just a little less than new.

 

[TwoMile]

The people who complain about Toyota probably know this stuff and just ignore it just to make their point. Every top brand digs out a niche to differentiate itself from the rest the of the market. For Toyota, it has always been reliability first. Does it mean that they get right every single time? No. But as you have shown, they seems to have the "reliability" thing down pat. No company is going to be good at EVERYTHING. You don't make money doing that.

Well said. My old man had one Toyota pickup for 3 three years and the brakes never worked right causing 2 accidents and they could never fix it. Last Toy he ever had, won't ever have another, and took me awhile to finally try one again. The 16 Rav4 the wive had was ok other than it was a noisy econobox of a car. Seemed over priced for what it was. Got decent MPG's and wife put 37K on it in 18 months but she decided it was too small (which I told her that when she bought it. )

I went over to Toyota because of the reliability and the way they hold their value. Too many times I paid big bucks for a GM or Ford and when trade-in time came they were worthless! I went to the local Toyota dealer and found many used vehicles selling for just a little less than new.

I don't trade in rigs as I usually keep them for a long time, take care of them and have always received top dollar through private party sales. Trading a rig in is always a lose/lose in my book.

As someone who has owned a lot of different vehicles I don't see the extraordinary reliability of a Toyota over anything else I've ever had. Toyota has that reputation for sure and I guess I'll find out for myself if that holds true. Maybe a Toyota can take more abuse when it comes to lazy maintenance practices vs some of the others? I'm pretty meticulous about maintenance no matter what it is and I've had rigs that go well into the mid to upper 100K miles with no issues other than normal wear items. I thought when we had jeeps I was stepping back into time. I feel the same way with the 4R. Things that are common on modern rigs of today are not so common on the 4R. Makes me laugh but I'll get used to it.

When I bought a new truck I looked at Tundra's as lots of folks say how good they are. They are nice but not that much nicer than a comparable GM or Ford imo. But until the Tundra has some payload and the ability to do real work truck stuff, there is little choice other than the big 3. It would be interesting to see Toyota offer a 2500-3500 type truck with a diesel or capable gasser.

My 2 cents...

 

[WNY PAT]

When I bought a new truck I looked at Tundra's as lots of folks say how good they are. They are nice but not that much nicer than a comparable GM or Ford imo. But until the Tundra has some payload and the ability to do real work truck stuff, there is little choice other than the big 3. It would be interesting to see Toyota offer a 2500-3500 type truck with a diesel or capable gasser.

My 2 cents...

My ‘17 Tundra pulls better than my friend’s 2016 2500HD. All day. All conditions. When we go to the hunting camp, he pulls the 16’ ATV trailer and since I got the Tundra I pull the open trailer with the tractor and implements on it. I had a GMC 1/2 ton for 5 years and about 140K miles. Before you compare payloads and such, make sure you’re comparing apples to apples and dollar per dollar. Pulled a lot with that too. Also found out the market value when I got rid of it. I’m taking my chances with the Tundra and will see how she holds up. I keep mine until they need to go due to issues or too much of an investment to keep them going. YMMV.