Lift with good handling? - Mountain driving

[jhguth]

Unless the KDSS works some miracle

it does, it doesn't feel like the same vehicle. i actually made myself carsick driving a non-kdss through the tail of the dragon. i haven't taken my kdss through the tail of the dragon but it's been on the diamondback and other similar roads and it felt perfectly stable and confident with none of the porpoising that made me want to puke on the dragon.

I could be wrong, but my understanding is you only add clearance by increasing tire size, which shifts CG, which affects handling.

If you're adding weight, you'll definitely want stiffer springs, but I can't guess what else you should do. At some point it seems like you're going to have to decide what you actually want out of your rig.

that's the only way to increase the clearance of the rear axle, which usually isn't the limiting factor. lifting increases most everything else.

 

[IanB]

But the better handing is due to the better suspension, which can be had at stock height as well, which should offer better handling than the same suspension lifted?

Sure, but often accompanying a suspension lift is larger, stiffer sidewall tires, which also make a big difference in lateral stability when cornering. When you can keep bodyroll in check, the increased COG doesn't make as big a difference.

The stock 20" tires on my '15 Ltd. HOWL through cloverleafs, they are definitely the weakest link I'm dealing with right now. We'll see how some 255/75/17 Duratracs do, I have a lot of experience with them in C and E load sidewalls, but this size only comes in SL (P-rated) load so I don't expect them to be as stiff as the ones I've run in the past.

 

[Toffees]

Sure, but often accompanying a suspension lift is larger, stiffer sidewall tires, which also make a big difference in lateral stability when cornering. When you can keep bodyroll in check, the increased COG doesn't make as big a difference.

The stock 20" tires on my '15 Ltd. HOWL through cloverleafs, they are definitely the weakest link I'm dealing with right now. We'll see how some 255/75/17 Duratracs do, I have a lot of experience with them in C and E load sidewalls, but this size only comes in SL (P-rated) load so I don't expect them to be as stiff as the ones I've run in the past.

maybe it doesn't matter on a cloverleaf, but slaloming through mountain passes surely is the test of small differences? you and OP do what you want, but he's asking a different question than "can you feel a difference motoring along the streets of XYZ"

 

[IanB]

maybe it doesn't matter on a cloverleaf, but slaloming through mountain passes surely is the test of small differences? you and OP do what you want, but he's asking a different question than "can you feel a difference motoring along the streets of XYZ"

He's not asking how to build a 4Runner for AutoX either though...I didn't get the impression he was interested in leaving it at stock height, but Dobinsons has some spring options that provide as little as 1" lift if that's what he's after, or coilovers could be tuned to keep it low as well.

 

[willo]

To be fair, the jeep has very little weight up top. I have a rack up there but it helps keep the center of gravity low. Tires wear nicely too thanks to the double solid axles.

I'll argue the point of tires vs suspension and clearance on the 4runner. When I mention clearance, I'm not only referring to the ground to axle distance.
With just a suspension lift on a 4runner...
Up front with the IFS you are going to get more center clearance.
In the back with the solid axle? nope.

That said, the body and frame will be higher so we get:
Increased approach angle
Increased breakover angle
Increased departure angle

These long wheelbase vehicles truly benefit from getting the center up higher when we're talking about hitting the trails.
In addition, with coil lift springs and proper length shocks we'll see improved articulation as well.

While I'll certainly up the tires a bit at some point, i'm holding off as winter is coming and the dealer just put brand new tires on.

 

[Rightside Up]

Another vote for Dobinsons.
Less body roll and nose dive.

 

[JET4]

The TRD/Bilstein lift from Sonoran Steel has the progressive rate springs that you said you liked on your Jeep.

 

[tacoyota]

If i were you, I would run King/Fox/Icon adjustable coilovers with compression adjusters. Can adjust as high or low and stiff or soft to your liking. Then you just have to choose tire size, tire rating and how stiff a lift spring you want in the front/rear (based on aftermarket mods.) Done.

 

[Jetboy]

Every lift will make handling worse. Accept that as a given. With IFS as you lift the control arms will increase in angle and the COG will go up. IT will also end up inherently with a mismatch in roll angle front to rear that will make it unbalanced. The roll center goes up in the front disproportionately to the rear. A longer track bar doesn't fix it. The track bar correction bracket is better although not a perfect fix because the front is still not ideal.

So you'll need to start by accepting that it's going to be worse than stock no matter what you do if you lift it. And the higher you go, the worse it gets.

Fortunately you have KDSS and it really does a great job. If you keep the lift limited to around 1 or 2 inches, you can still have a great ride quality, good handling, and good performance. I personally have KDSS with Fox 2.5 Factory Series RR's up front and Fox 2.0 Performance in the rear along with 2" lift rear springs from Dobinsons. My general take is that the ride was unquestionably better sitting at ~1.5" lift than somthing like 3" lift in the front. I've cranked up the height for the purpose of offroad clearance. It's a trade off. And it does make it worse. The nice thing about the more expensive suspension options up front is the adjustability in height.

I will also say that the rear shocks are valved too firmly. The size of a 2.0 rear shock is great to match with a 2.5 front because the leverage ratio is 2:1 up front and about 1:1 in the back. It's not an issue with a smaller shock - but there is a valving issue. I think they are too stiff for a comfortable ride in the rear. I intend at some point to re-valve them with a flutter stack and a softer low and mid speed compression valving. Rebound is probably just fine.

So - that's my general opinion from my experience. Keep the lift height low. With KDSS a softer tune in the shock valving is ideal for comfort. KDSS will handle body roll better than any shock setup you could install. Keep the geometry in check and it'll corner well and drive well.

 

[mrblah]

Well buying a 4runner w/ KDSS is a good start if you want a stable on-road platform to begin with.

My 4runner is lifted w/ kdss, and I drive pretty aggressively in the twisties, enough to get everyone in the vehicle car sick...... There is very little body roll.

I wouldn't do that with a 4runner without KDSS, not saying you can't do it...just don't expect confidence inspiring handling w/o KDSS.

As everyone has already mentioned, lifting your vehicle is all about tradeoffs.... and then adding weight complicates things......

I would do the following:

Drive the vehicle stock, then add weight, then choose your suspension setup based on the weight of your vehicle. Replacing and tuning suspension components gets expensive real quick.

I heart KDSS

 

[skinny420]

I am also a BIG fan of KDSS. I went w/ Toytec Boss. HD springs in rear b/c of my everyday 150 lbs of stuff in the back. Went ahead and did UCAs as well. Some say you can get away w/ 2.5" lift w/o doing them but will def. be better alignment -> driving experience. Seems to me Toytec Boss is best bang for your buck. Link to pics in sig.

 

[willo]

Yeah I haven't dug into the IFS much. I did find that doing lower control arms and a track bar made a world of difference(on my jeep). I shall research the IFS lift a bit more. I've found that manufacturers tend to put together the minimum amount of parts to keep costs down. In doing so, they miss out on that little extra that makes the mod sing.

Meanwhile, it turns out that the dealer put new tires on my 4runner, sadly they are IMO crappy - midrange kelly HTs. Ah well, I suppose they'll make decent craigslist fodder. They are LT tires, I suppose I can toss them into storage as spares for my F250.

 

[Dubiousatbest]

KDSS w/ Icon digressives, rides on rails. I ride Berthoud pass every weekend all through winter on stock size snow's and it doesn't disappoint. Also A line plenty of trails all summer on 33.8"s. Expensive for sure but worth it IMO

 

[MasonCO]

We have a 2016 TEP with KDSS. It gets driven from Littleton to South Park 2-3 times a month on 285. That commute is probably very similar to what you tackle in the Nederland area.

We have stock sized AT tires for now. In my experience so far (36,000 miles), I've noticed no perceptible nosediving on braking, and the minimal, if any, body roll around corners. It actually handles pretty damn well and I can drive pretty 'aggressively' on that drive.

Get ready for a bit of disappointment in the clearance department, though. That front sway bar, combined with a skid plate (I have a Hefty Fab aluminum skid) takes away a bunch of ground clearance in the front end. I occasionally scrape on cement parking barriers at the store. :frusty: