limited slip vs locker

[SS_Syndicate]

No, not all electric....the first few years of Rubicon used pneumatic...and had lots of problems. The electrics haven't been good either....but somewhat better than the pneumatics.

Agreed...OX sucked when it first came out....I'm still not a fan but there are people who swear by them now. I lost interest in them after their initial release and haven't kept up with reliability since.

If you're hosting events, and watching closely enough to be apparently spotting and needing the locker to lock specifically to grab one line on the trail, why aren't you having the person lock their diff before they actually get to that point?

Mobil 1 full synth 75W-90 gear oil doesn't have friction modifiers....Redline and other more exotic full synth gear oils don't either you just have to spec if out before ordering....you shouldn't have much trouble finding a GL4 or 5 rated gear oil for an ARB.

That looks more like the D60 version but regardless....even with 4 pins, that's 90º of motion before lock....again, user error if people are waiting to engage their locker until they have a problem.

The JK lockers are ALL Electric. You are mixing the electric over pneumatics that were on TJs.

The JK D44s actually have a lot of similarities to D60s. Especially the semi-float ones. In fact, the pinion bearings are the same size. They also accept the ~1.5" dia 35 spline shafts (with the right carrier).

Since slip is needed to lock, it doesn't matter when you engage it. It could've been turned on for 1/4 mile before it was needed and it would still slip some.

I'm not in the habit of locking everything up right away. We give everything a try open. The only time I automatically lock or have someone lock is if I know a tire will be carried.

...anyway, it's sounding like this operation doesn't pertain to Toys, and since this ins't a Jeep forum I will shut up.

 

[SpidermanGeek]

E-lockers also fail. A lot of members have posted issues. A good air locker is pretty damn reliable.

Yup, mine's been broken ever since I bought the rig, but according to the previous owner, it worked the last time he needed it.

In my 2.5 years of ownership of my T4R, I have yet to even take it into a trail (my avatar pic is from the previous owner).

I love that my Runner has a lift, oversized M/T tires and an OEM e-locker... but honestly.. I have no practical use or reason for any of it.

I feel like a giant fraud, lol.

 

[nevada]

I should have said, "most e-lockers I've dealt with". I didn't mean to claim this is how the Toyota ones work... I had/have no idea. The factory Jeep lockers don't need the rotation either but have other weaknesses that still makes the ARB more desirable.

The Eaton E-Lockers do require this rotation (at least the ones I've installed). It's for this reason I tend not to like them so it's good to know this isn't the case in Toy-land.

that is only on the early versions. to my knowledge, they are now updated, and do NOT unlock when changing directions.

Are you sure you're not talking about Eaton's Gov-Loks? The regular e-locker from Eaton may take a small amount of rotation to lock, just like Toyota's can.....but once they lock, they are spooled until you unlock them (which can also take a few rotations). What neither does is continue to lock and unlock once you press the button and the unit engages.

Ya, the Jeep air lockers have been problematic....and most get replaced with ARBs/Zips.

Eaton ELocker Differentials, Electric Locker Differential - Vehicle - Eaton

About the 2:20 mark the video shows how the dowels line up to the drive cog....it would only take enough "slippage" to allow those dowels to align to their respective holes once the electro magnet is activated.

the early version did unlock when going from forward to reverse.

they updated the D60 version first, and im pretty sure the D44 now as well. I cant speak to the others.

 

[T4R2014]

I love that my Runner has a lift, oversized M/T tires and an OEM e-locker... but honestly.. I have no practical use or reason for any of it.

I feel like a giant fraud, lol.

Just quit sipping the forum kool aid lol. It's amazing how well these can drive with stock suspension and some well-balanced Michelins. Just use the locker when you feel like doing something super stupid... like driving up a staircase.

 

[ajordan1975]

All that stuff is usually user error because they don't maintain there rig. Many issues on e-lockers across all Toyota platforms.

Doubtful. Rock crawling folks tend to waaaaaay more anal about upkeep than the weekend warrior types. Trust me

 

[Sean K.]

The JK lockers are ALL Electric. You are mixing the electric over pneumatics that were on TJs.

The JK D44s actually have a lot of similarities to D60s. Especially the semi-float ones. In fact, the pinion bearings are the same size. They also accept the ~1.5" dia 35 spline shafts (with the right carrier).

Since slip is needed to lock, it doesn't matter when you engage it. It could've been turned on for 1/4 mile before it was needed and it would still slip some.

I'm not in the habit of locking everything up right away. We give everything a try open. The only time I automatically lock or have someone lock is if I know a tire will be carried.

...anyway, it's sounding like this operation doesn't pertain to Toys, and since this ins't a Jeep forum I will shut up.

I'm not mixing anything....I said "Rubicons".....The Rubicon debuted in the TJ...with pneumatic lockers. You're the one bouncing around from Toyotas to Eatons to factory Jeep, etc.

"Slip" is not needed to lock....rotation is needed to align the pins and that rotation is slight.



1/4 mile first?....if your locker is slipping (not the tires due to a low traction situation).....it's broken.

 

[Sean K.]

that is only on the early versions. to my knowledge, they are now updated, and do NOT unlock when changing directions.


the early version did unlock when going from forward to reverse.

they updated the D60 version first, and im pretty sure the D44 now as well. I cant speak to the others.

Did they unlock when "changing direction"....left/right? If so, they were never actually "lockers" in the first place. Someone needs to explain just how the early version Eaton's determined when to unlock....

 

[Sean K.]

I owe SS and apology....

From Pirate circa 2010:

"I run E-lockers front and rear. They are the original pin design (vs the collar design used on Dana axles) in a 14bsf and a 10b. I have never had a single problem with them, but you have to understand how they function in order to not use them incorrectly. With ARB's, once there is enough air pressure and teh splines line up, they lock and stay locked until the air pressure is released. Eaton's design uses a magnetic drag clutch to operate a ball ramp assembly, which forces the pins/collar into engagement with the side gear. The thing is, it takes approx. 120 degrees of carrier rotation to lock the pins/collar. If you try to thrash on it before it is locked you risk damaging the pins or collar. Likewise, trying to engage it during a wheelspin situation is bad. Also, any time you reverse the carriers rotation (either going from forward to reverse or vice versa) while locked, the locker will unlock and then relock, with the whole cycle taking approx. 240 degrees of carrier rotation. Once again, wheelspin or hammering on it before it is completely relocked can break shit."

Consensus on Pirate is Eatons are garbage....based on this write up, I'd agree.

Apologies SS.

***EDIT** Updates to the same thread all the way into 2015 say the same problems exist. http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-4x4-discussion/857702-eaton-e-locker-vs-arb-air-locker.html

 

[kolelt]

A locker is so useless compared to an LSD if you drive your 4Runner like a normal human being and don't drive around with lifts and huge knobby tires to make elementary school kids think you're going to drive up Everest. I usually just use my locker to get myself into dumb situations. I'd much prefer an LSD so I don't look like an idiot pulling into traffic because I have a single tire spinning away after a drizzle.

A locker is not useless.

But both are opinions.

 

[T4R2014]

A locker is not useless.

But both are opinions.

Alright, something like a G80 in a GM truck offers function in day-to-day usage and comes in handy for low speed off-roading. From what I've heard, they don't hold up to larger tires as well as a Toyota e-locker, but I don't dick around with 250 lb Goodyear Wrangler MTR Wilderness Open Country Duratrac Hybrid Mud Terrains w/ DuPont Kevlar Reinforcement TM's at each corner, and I've seen plenty of those diffs holding up with 200k+ miles.

That e-locker on the other hand... on a drizzly morning trying to turn onto a busy main access road can be quite scary with that unlocked diff. Unless I stop to engage 4LO and lock the diff just for this minor task I've gotta deal with it. Oh, and I ain't got no time to be screwing around with some wires to do that blue/grey/magenta/imperial jade wire mod to accompany that totally rad hole with a deck plate I cut into my air box to make loud raspy V6 noises while I spin my tires even faster with an increase of 1.7 horsepower at 4700 RPM.

Pretty sure the Hilux Surfs came with a limited slip option. Much more convenient IMO since I don't plan off road trips months in advance to get the previously mentioned set of tires dirty for the first time after 15k of wear. But yeah, once that trip happens the locker definitely outshines the limited slip.

Just joking btw, don't take it as aimed at you. Just my take from reading these forums for 10+ years.

 

[SpidermanGeek]

Just quit sipping the forum kool aid lol. It's amazing how well these can drive with stock suspension and some well-balanced Michelins. Just use the locker when you feel like doing something super stupid... like driving up a staircase.

I bought mine the pretty much the way it sits now (with Lift, etc.) from this guy. All I've done to it is maintenance (UBJs, LBJs, OTREs, ITREs, Front CVs, Front Sway Bar, Drive Belts, etc.) and added a Trans Cooler and Trans Temp Gauge.

The intention, when I bought it, was to join a local Off-Road group and get into that, but life has gotten in the way and I'm way to paranoid of breaking something that'll put my 4Runner out of commission.

You gotta pay to play and I have other financial priorities.

I don't even own any basic recovery gear yet. I at least need to get myself a manual come-along and some straps.

 

[nevada]

Did they unlock when "changing direction"....left/right? If so, they were never actually "lockers" in the first place. Someone needs to explain just how the early version Eaton's determined when to unlock....

you misunderstand, "changing directions" was meaning going from forward to reverse.

I owe SS and apology....

From Pirate circa 2010:

"I run E-lockers front and rear. They are the original pin design (vs the collar design used on Dana axles) in a 14bsf and a 10b. I have never had a single problem with them, but you have to understand how they function in order to not use them incorrectly. With ARB's, once there is enough air pressure and teh splines line up, they lock and stay locked until the air pressure is released. Eaton's design uses a magnetic drag clutch to operate a ball ramp assembly, which forces the pins/collar into engagement with the side gear. The thing is, it takes approx. 120 degrees of carrier rotation to lock the pins/collar. If you try to thrash on it before it is locked you risk damaging the pins or collar. Likewise, trying to engage it during a wheelspin situation is bad. Also, any time you reverse the carriers rotation (either going from forward to reverse or vice versa) while locked, the locker will unlock and then relock, with the whole cycle taking approx. 240 degrees of carrier rotation. Once again, wheelspin or hammering on it before it is completely relocked can break shit."

Consensus on Pirate is Eatons are garbage....based on this write up, I'd agree.

Apologies SS.

***EDIT** Updates to the same thread all the way into 2015 say the same problems exist. EATON E-Locker vs ARB Air locker - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum

they were recently redesigned. they no longer work this way. for sure on the d60 stuff, as I said above.

I believe also with the d44. mostly because a buddy just had one installed, and when asked, he said it didn't seem to ever unlock.

i hope they aren't "garbage" as i plan to install one in my d70 in the somewhat near future.

 

[3bears]

thanks for all the input.
I'm going with a locker now.

thanks again

 

[Sean K.]

you misunderstand, "changing directions" was meaning going from forward to reverse.

they were recently redesigned. they no longer work this way. for sure on the d60 stuff, as I said above.

I believe also with the d44. mostly because a buddy just had one installed, and when asked, he said it didn't seem to ever unlock.

i hope they aren't "garbage" as i plan to install one in my d70 in the somewhat near future.

I was referring to what SS said, not your later clarification of forward/reverse.

Meh....I've pretty much decided against owning any more selectables (unless I start competing again). After reading how poorly the Eaton's perform, I wouldn't even consider it when ARB and Zip are available. YMMV.

 

[SS_Syndicate]

[SNIP]I owe SS and apology.... Apologies SS.

No worries at all! I wasn't being overly clear and you are right about me mixing some things together (that never really should've been posted here).


I see you are in AZ. Whereabouts? The wife and I LOVE AZ... in fact we are visiting again at the end of the month to celebrate our 20th anniversary.

 

[Sean K.]

No worries at all! I wasn't being overly clear and you are right about me mixing some things together (that never really should've been posted here).


I see you are in AZ. Whereabouts? The wife and I LOVE AZ... in fact we are visiting again at the end of the month to celebrate our 20th anniversary.

Well, I was flat ass wrong about the early editions of the Eaton E-Locker....so again, sorry.

I'm in the Phoenix area.....TONS of great wheeling around the valley...within 30 minutes to an hour and 15 minutes from my place.....but season runs from 3rd week in October to generally May. If you want to wheel outside that time frame, you can head up north, get up on the Mogollan or head up to Moab, Telluride, Ouray/Silverton, Big Bear, etc.....all 5-9 hour drives.