Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers' Prison Terms

[willbgood]

We've all seen the photos of him with a shotgun across his lap so it's obvious he carried more than a pistol. Combined with him saying that if they tried to take him by force, he would fight back, using his gun if necessary.

Remember him saying "There were "more important things than life" and he was "prepared to die in the name of "freedom".

I will conclude that he was a man of his word.

I'm done with this thread.

If you do not understand that I was speaking of sidearm, you should be done with this thread.

Slow this video down to .25 in the you tube settings, and it is clear, his hands were up, he was back shot, turned reached for the wound, then put his hands back up, and was then shot again from the rear, before he turned and went down.

https://youtu.be/aAGxDWKrjPQ?t=9m26s

Of course, if you have presuppositions, nothing will sway them, and we all have presuppositions.

I am attempting to get a copy of the video, so I can run a thoroughly analysis it, at even lower speed, but from an evidentiary standpoint, as a prior leo, it looks very clear to me.

Its clear enough to get warrant, and call a grand jury, something that will not happen in this case.

 

[Wingsuit]

With all due respect for the former constable, dude, you define presuppositions. Even in the face of incontrovertible video evidence, you weakly try to spin it your way. Over and out and on to the next big thread.

 

[willbgood]

With all due respect for the former constable, dude, you define presuppositions. Even in the face of incontrovertible video evidence, you weakly try to spin it your way. Over and out and on to the next big thread.

We all have presuppositions. But, in this case, while the evidence is not incontrovertible, it is in fact, enough for me to think what I do.

I believe the autopsy will indicate an entrance wound in the posterior right lower quadrant of the abdomen, anterior, left lower quadrant abdomen...the first shot.

He clearly is facing and recognizes the man in the woods with hands up, but then turns toward the road as he grabs his side. Then he puts his hand back up and faces the shooter in woods.

Unfortunately I am unable to download the video from youtube, but at the speed of .25 it is clearer. When I get it can zoom in, I believe the evidence will support my presuppositions, and will be abundantly clear. I also believe the MSM will never reveal the actual facts, and the folks who believe one way now, will never be convinced of any other fact picture than the one they now believe.

I would really love to see additional angles, but I doubt we will ever see body cam or vehicle video, because the federal agencies, as a rule, make the state agencies supporting them, either turn them off, or leave them behind.

 

[Planetölogy]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PA5HRW4DWz0

 

[willbgood]

Oregon Town Torn Apart by Protest at Wildlife Refuge

 

[Boyswithtoys]

I seen your picture. Ain't you one of them Bigfoot hunters on TV?

 

[willbgood]

I seen your picture. Ain't you one of them Bigfoot hunters on TV?

nah, I am a duck dynasty stand in...keeps me to busy...

 

[Waterman2112]

We all have presuppositions. But, in this case, while the evidence is not incontrovertible, it is in fact, enough for me to think what I do.

I believe the autopsy will indicate an entrance wound in the posterior right lower quadrant of the abdomen, anterior, left lower quadrant abdomen...the first shot.

He clearly is facing and recognizes the man in the woods with hands up, but then turns toward the road as he grabs his side. Then he puts his hand back up and faces the shooter in woods.

Unfortunately I am unable to download the video from youtube, but at the speed of .25 it is clearer. When I get it can zoom in, I believe the evidence will support my presuppositions, and will be abundantly clear. I also believe the MSM will never reveal the actual facts, and the folks who believe one way now, will never be convinced of any other fact picture than the one they now believe.

I would really love to see additional angles, but I doubt we will ever see body cam or vehicle video, because the federal agencies, as a rule, make the state agencies supporting them, either turn them off, or leave them behind.

Well I will add this with regards to Abdominal Subdivisions and subsequent gun shot wounds... His reaction - if in fact shot at the time you say - was the most nonplused reaction to having his kidney and renal arteries blow apart that I've ever seen. Even a simple but devastating kidney punch will drop a full grown man to his knees. A standard Glock 9mm has a muzzle velocity of 1200 ft/s and would impact the organs and blood circulating tissue in a violent manner causing immediate shock... there was no buckling of the knees, no taking a few steps to steady himself from the blow... I don't see it and I've double-clicked-stop-action every frame of the video to try and ascertain some understanding of the events.

I wasn't there... didn't witness it first hand, and there's no sound. But visually from the video I can review... I don't see that back shot you speak of.
Just my opinion.

 

[willbgood]

Well I will add this with regards to Abdominal Subdivisions and subsequent gun shot wounds... His reaction - if in fact shot at the time you say - was the most nonplused reaction to having his kidney and renal arteries blow apart that I've ever seen. Even a simple but devastating kidney punch will drop a full grown man to his knees. A standard Glock 9mm has a muzzle velocity of 1200 ft/s and would impact the organs and blood circulating tissue in a violent manner causing immediate shock... there was no buckling of the knees, no taking a few steps to steady himself from the blow... I don't see it and I've double-clicked-stop-action every frame of the video to try and ascertain some understanding of the events.

I wasn't there... didn't witness it first hand, and there's no sound. But visually from the video I can review... I don't see that back shot you speak of.
Just my opinion.

Have you ever been in a fire fight? Ever seen someone shot multiple times and continue to fight? I have. Only in Hollywood do rounds knock people about. There is no such thing as knockdown power in any sidearm or standard rifle. Even deer run after being shot.

In fact, it takes allot to drop a man, even with a Glock 9 and hydro shock rounds, depending on the location, a person can continue to fight, and they do. Although Lavoy was not fighting, I can see him being by several rounds, and so can other experience men.

I have seen a man take several AK rounds and fight for hours before he succumbed. As well, he lived.

I have a friend who was shot once, lost an arm, part of his face, and was burned by WP. He fought on for hours and in fact refused to be medevacked until his men were. He wears the medal.

The feds use 40's, I do not know what the state boys use, but I cannot agree with what you say, because I know it is not true.

A LEO friend of mine has pointed out that it may not have been a shot he took at first. He thinks it was a tazer gun, the guy in the woods, from the rear. He says enhanced and at low speed you can see it clearly and you can see him pulling the wires and clearly out once the shooting started in front of him.

At this point I do not know, but I am pretty sure the facts surrounding this will come out. I am especially hopeful, that all the facts will be made clear, because LEO's are speaking out and saying that judging by the video, it does not appear to be a clean shoot.

No matter what, the stop, the shoot was not clean. It now appears that the they did not even have proper paper for the stop. So the stop itself may have been an illegal stop. I will never be convinced it was justified and if I authority, I would be seeking arrest warrants, and trying to get the prosecutor to bring them before the grand jury.

 

[Waterman2112]

Listen - I appreciate your knowledge here, which seems to be manifold. Got it.

IMO - it did not seem as if his reactions were due to being shot.

Fire fights, yes. Not the type detailed here. 1980-1986 USN Persian Gulf. Adams class destroyer Mk V 5" forward gun controller splashing Iranian gun boats. Total Hollywood.

 

[spencenasty]

Have you ever been in a fire fight? Ever seen someone shot multiple times and continue to fight? I have. Only in Hollywood do rounds knock people about. There is no such thing as knockdown power in any sidearm or standard rifle. Even deer run after being shot.

In fact, it takes allot to drop a man, even with a Glock 9 and hydro shock rounds, depending on the location, a person can continue to fight, and they do. Although Lavoy was not fighting, I can see him being by several rounds, and so can other experience men.

I have seen a man take several AK rounds and fight for hours before he succumbed. As well, he lived.

I came in this conversation late, but that line there, is incorrect.

 

[BrianSD_42]

In all seriousness, what is an illegal stop?

Don't the feds have the right to pull anyone over for questioning on a public highway, especially given the circumstances.

If these guys were some ISIS cult supporters everyone would be fine with the feds pulling their car over talking with them.

I haven't heard of any court case or law that blocks LEO from pulling over a suspect when they have probable cause. The driver has given press conferences and they knew who he was. There definitely seems to be probable cause he was part of the occupation of federal lands in violation of several laws.

I'm sorry to see him shot like that but it looks clean from the (long distance) video.

 

[Wingsuit]

In all seriousness, what is an illegal stop?

Don't the feds have the right to pull anyone over for questioning on a public highway, especially given the circumstances.

If these guys were some ISIS cult supporters everyone would be fine with the feds pulling their car over talking with them.

I haven't heard of any court case or law that blocks LEO from pulling over a suspect when they have probable cause. The driver has given press conferences and they knew who he was. There definitely seems to be probable cause he was part of the occupation of federal lands in violation of several laws.

I'm sorry to see him shot like that but it looks clean from the (long distance) video.

If the police needed a warrant every time they arrested someone hardly anyone would be arrested. You don't not arrest a robber or a guy beating his wife because you haven't gone down to court and filed for a paper warrant yet. In this case, the FBI in consultation with the US Attorney determined that probable cause existed to believe that a federal crime had been committed. So the car stop was done to effect a federal arrest. Once arrested, Bundy and his co-conspirators are required to be taken without delay to the nearest available federal judge, which I think was clear up in Portland since Oregon is a big state with no people. at that time, an affidavit for complaint is filed detailing why the FBI believes that a federal crime has been committed, and that the people arrested committed the crime. So it's all legal. And by the way, Bigfoot Hunter/Duck Dynasty, you are a pleasure to "forum" with, even if we all don't agree on things....

 

[willbgood]

Listen - I appreciate your knowledge here, which seems to be manifold. Got it.

IMO - it did not seem as if his reactions were due to being shot.

Fire fights, yes. Not the type detailed here. 1980-1986 USN Persian Gulf. Adams class destroyer Mk V 5" forward gun controller splashing Iranian gun boats. Total Hollywood.

Thank you for your service. I was a Navy aspirin pusher, a corpsman, and I understand what it means to be a gunners mate on tin can.

The 80's were a very dangerous time and our country did not recognize it, or your valuable service.

I understand that I can not fully evaluate what happened in Oregon, and in fact, my view is based on experience and my perceptions of what I see in the video. My experience does come into play, but without autopsies, interviews, and other evidence, judging the manner in which this transpired is of limited utility.

My argument should be, and in fact is, that this event should never have occurred. Without proper paper, a carload of Americans were ambushed on American highway by state police and FBI agents.

These men were not heavily armed, as is being spun, and they were not looking for a fight. The may have been excising there First amendment right, and carrying arms, but I do not know even that for sure, as they had been seen around Harney county traveling unarmed, or at least with no arms visible.

These were not hardened felons, or terrorists, on a murderous rampage.

They were traveling to a meeting where could have easily been served and arrested, if the officials had the proper paper. As well, they could have been contained at the refuge, by a small number of men and vehicles, and waited out. Lack of supplies, cold, sickness, and negative public opinion, would have ended this with no deaths.

When officer safety, trumps citizens rights, it is just a small step, before the citizen has no rights. It is due process of law that protects us all from the state.

 

[willbgood]

In all seriousness, what is an illegal stop?

Don't the feds have the right to pull anyone over for questioning on a public highway, especially given the circumstances.

If these guys were some ISIS cult supporters everyone would be fine with the feds pulling their car over talking with them.

I haven't heard of any court case or law that blocks LEO from pulling over a suspect when they have probable cause. The driver has given press conferences and they knew who he was. There definitely seems to be probable cause he was part of the occupation of federal lands in violation of several laws.

I'm sorry to see him shot like that but it looks clean from the (long distance) video.

I see one LAW, and it is all important.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. United States v. Cruikshank

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. District of Columbia v. Heller

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

The concept of ''probable cause'' is central to the meaning of the warrant clause. Neither the Fourth Amendment nor the federal statutory provisions relevant to the area define ''probable cause;'' the definition is entirely a judicial construct. - See more at: Annotation 2 - Fourth Amendment - FindLaw

The idea that we would void the constitution, based upon a judicial construct that gives us a sense of safety, and security, was what the founders feared. It was addressed by many, at the time of the constitutions writing and adoption, and assurance were given by the opposition that it would never happen. It has, and we now watch youtube videos and argue whether the shooting was clean or not.

We are not secure in our persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures and in fact every area of our lives is regulated and a simply violation or unpopular act can get us arrested, or even killed.

This was not the intent of the men who sacrificed their lives, liberty and wealth in the hope that future generations would not be slaves of tyrannical government.

When it is a fact, that every American commits daily felonies, most often, unknowingly, as is the case today, given that no human can possibly know the law, as it is so broad and complex. It is impossible to fully know and understand even with advanced legal training. The government can apply the "probable cause" argument to anyone and then kill them because of fool hardy ambush plans carried our militarized police.

Add to this the shield, and the argument that officer safety is paramount, (one of the safest jobs by the way,) and no one is safe, if an agent of the state decides to kill you or does during an official act.

The difference between using probable cause to stop a dangerous felon in the commision of a crime, or by a posse, (those in chase,) immediately afterward and stopping people who are exercising their right to peaceably assemble, redress their grievances, and petition their government on public lands, byways, and highways, should be self evident.

If it is public land, than the public by right has the right to be there, armed, or unarmed, liked or disliked. Even if we hate them and what they stand for.

To call these men traitors, is disingenuous, they did not take an arsenal, fort, court or port. They did not attack the forces of either the state or the united states. They were peaceably assembled on a public land and in public building, arguing an unpopular cause.

There simply was not any overt act that would indicate they had committed a dangerous felony or were about to.

 

[willbgood]

And by the way, Bigfoot Hunter/Duck Dynasty, you are a pleasure to "forum" with, even if we all don't agree on things....

The same goes for you Wingsuit. I enjoy the free exchange of ideas, with intelligent people, even more so with intelligent people I disagree with.

My greatest fear in life is that I will someday be surrounded by people that all agree with each other...if it happens, it will be the day my fire goes out.

 

[BrianSD_42]

Unfortunately I am unable to download the video from youtube,

If you download JDownloader which is freeware you can use it to download any streaming video in the original mp4, flv format, even HD.

Works on YouTube and pretty much all the other tube websites.

Completely freeware. Some AV may give a warning but it is a false positive.


BTW I do appreciate the commentary. Disagreement is fine and healthy.

 

[willbgood]

Propaganda

A friend sent this to me on face book. How easy we follow the talking heads of government and media...

 

[willbgood]

Enhanced Video Shows LaVoy Finicum Point Out Agent that Took First Shot at Him - The Washington Standard

 

[willbgood]

Official statement from the lavoy finicum family 1-29-2016

We know that there are always at least two sides to every story. We also know and recognize that the FBI and law enforcement agencies involved will do everything in their power to make it appear as if the needless death of our husband, father, grandfather, brother and son, LaVoy Finicum, was justified.

Like almost everyone else, we were not there, so we don’t know exactly what happened. Like most others, we have no choice but to rely on other sources of information. One of those sources of information is the account of Victoria Sharp. Another piece of information is the video recently released by the FBI, along with the FBI’s chosen narrative of what happened. In response to this information, we would like to make a few observations.
The first observation is that from what we understand, the occupation was on track toward a peaceful resolution. LaVoy and those he was with were en route to a public meeting in an adjoining county when they were stopped in something far different than a “routine traffic stop,” as has been portrayed by the media. Unfortunately, the powers that be were not interested in being patient enough for the occupation to come to a peaceful end. Some had called for LaVoy and those he was with to simply be gunned down, just as he was, with no due process. Oregon Governor, Kate Brown, was putting pressure on the FBI to end it sooner rather than later. The Harney County Sheriff’s Department working in conjunction with the FBI tried to do everything they could to emphasize how disruptive the occupation was to the local community, when in reality it appears to have been their own reaction that was causing most of the disruption. And it was the FBI that chose to escalate the situation to force a confrontation, and violent ending.
With respect to the actual facts and circumstances surrounding LaVoy’s death, the video really speaks for itself. People will interpret it according to their own views. As the FBI’s own narrative stated, LaVoy was not wielding a firearm or any other weapon when he was killed. His hands were obviously in the air. Knowing LaVoy, it is our view that he was moving away from the vehicle in an attempt to draw any hostility or violence away from the others.

Unfortunately, we don’t know what he was saying, and what was being said to him. He appears to have been gesturing, or trying to keep his balance while moving in the deep snow. Although he may have been animated, he does not appear to have been threatening or posing any real threat or danger to anyone. The FBI claims that LaVoy had a loaded firearm in an inside pocket of his coat. After re-reviewing the extended video, at this point we are not accepting at face value the FBI’s statement that LaVoy was actually armed. But even if he was, as far as we can see,that firearm posed no more danger to anyone than it would have if he had stayed in the vehicle, with his hands on the steering wheel. Contrary to what has been stated by some sources, LaVoy was not “charging” anyone. He appears to have been shot in the back, with his hands in the air.

It is our understanding that according to applicable law, the use of deadly force is justified only if there is a genuine threat of death or serious bodily injury. It is our understanding and position that deadly force should only be used as a last resort. In LaVoy’s case it appears that they were determined to go straight to the last resort. It is our understanding that the U.S. Supreme Court and Ninth Circuit Court of appeals have ruled as follows:
“The reasonableness of [officers’] actions depends both on whether the officers were in danger at the precise moment that they used force and on whether [the officers’] own reckless or deliberate conduct during the seizure unreasonably created the need to use such force.”

"[W]here an officer intentionally or recklessly provokes a violent confrontation . . . he may be held liable for his otherwise defensive use of deadly force.” Although officers may claim self-defense, they may still be liable for using excessive force if their reckless and unconstitutional actions create the need to use excessive force.

It is our understanding that in addition to shooting LaVoy multiple times, after he was left lying harmlessly on the ground the officers also fired upon his truck and the passengers in it, putting them all at risk, despite the fact that they were posing no threat to anyone. The video clearly shows one of the windows being blown out. It has been gut-wrenching for our family to view the video of LaVoy being shot, and then left to lie in the snow while a whole army of so-called “public servants” terrorized the others. We can only hope their families never have to watch such a thing. We will be interested to inspect the vehicle. We will also be interested to see the autopsy report.
At this point we will await the outcome of any investigation, but based on the information currently available to us, we do not believe that LaVoy’s shooting death was justified. We likewise can't see any justification for the force and risk of serious injury or death that was exerted against the others in the truck, who posed no threat.

We know that under such circumstances law enforcement typically makes every attempt to cast such shooting victims in the worst possible light. In that regard, we also want to observe and emphasize that LaVoy had a squeaky clean record, and had never had so much as a speeding ticket. In addition to raising his own eleven children, he had also been entrusted with the care of at least 50 foster children over the course of approximately 10 years.

On January 7, 2016, LaVoy issued an official statement from the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. Among other things, the statement said:

“We want to clarify that we share any and all concerns about safety for everyone involved, including ourselves, our families, the public, and law enforcement officers. All lives are important to us. Ultimately, we want everyone involved to be able to return safely to their homes and families.
We are deeply troubled and saddened that our governments do not share the same concern for human life. We are deeply troubled that our governments would view whatever was happening at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge to be worth spilling blood over. We are deeply troubled and saddened that our governments have come to place so little value on life, liberty, property and pursuit of happiness.

We love LaVoy as our husband, father, grandfather, brother and son. He was a hero to us. We believe he died as a patriotic martyr. Regardless of any and all differing opinions, we know that he died standing for a cause HE believed in.

LaVoy’s funeral will be held in Kanab, Utah on Friday, February 5, 2016. We take comfort in our faith and our belief that LaVoy is now in a better place. May our dear Lord bless and receive him into that realm. We sincerely appreciate all the thoughts and prayers that have been sent our way. We pray for those who chose to take LaVoy’s life. We desire justice and genuine accountability for what happened, but we pray for them.
And finally, we thank God for this country and what it is supposed to stand for. We pray for this country, and that God will please bless, help and forgive us all.