ndcent
New member
Meh, tons of law enforcement shoot people bc "they were reaching for a weapon" I don't see how this is any different.
Militiamen Occupy Oregon Wildlife Office in Protest of Ranchers' Prison Terms
- Thread starter ndcent
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Meh, tons of law enforcement shoot people bc "they were reaching for a weapon" I don't see how this is any different.
nevada
Senior Member
KidVermicious
New member
FBI agents under investigation for possible misconduct in LaVoy Finicum shooting | OregonLive.com
This is ugly. Shit looks very bad for the FBI and Oregon State Police. 1) that roadblock was in a very shitty place. Finicum came around that corner doing what, 80-90mph? He was booking. He didn't have time to stop, the video clearly shows him on the brakes from when he came around the corner and at the end he still had to put the truck in the snowbank. Very poor roadblock position by the FBI if their goal was to stop the truck without casualties. But that wasn't their goal, because 2) they were firing at the truck before it came to a stop. According to the FBI in the linked article, several shots were fired hitting the truck as it approached the roadblock, before it came to a stop. At least one more hit the truck as Finicum was exiting with his hands up. So 3), now you've got Finicum, adrenaline pumping, outside the truck and you clearly hear at least two more shots while he's standing there with his hands in the air, and he's got fight or flight going and he's surrounded and being shot at, and it's no ****ing wonder that he can't decide what he should do. He thinks they're trying to kill him, and I think they were too. He should have dropped on his face and let them do what they were going to do, but he wasn't thinking clearly at all. And the fact remains, his hands never went into his pocket - if they had, even with all the above I wouldn't be griping, but they didn't. His hands went up and down several times, but he never actually went for his gun (that the FBI says was there). I think the guy in the woods with the taser fired and that's why his hands went down right before he was shot.
On top of that, the discovery that FBI agents are lying about whether or not they shot and other FBI agents are lying for them? No, this is not a good shoot. Not at all.
This is ugly. Shit looks very bad for the FBI and Oregon State Police. 1) that roadblock was in a very shitty place. Finicum came around that corner doing what, 80-90mph? He was booking. He didn't have time to stop, the video clearly shows him on the brakes from when he came around the corner and at the end he still had to put the truck in the snowbank. Very poor roadblock position by the FBI if their goal was to stop the truck without casualties. But that wasn't their goal, because 2) they were firing at the truck before it came to a stop. According to the FBI in the linked article, several shots were fired hitting the truck as it approached the roadblock, before it came to a stop. At least one more hit the truck as Finicum was exiting with his hands up. So 3), now you've got Finicum, adrenaline pumping, outside the truck and you clearly hear at least two more shots while he's standing there with his hands in the air, and he's got fight or flight going and he's surrounded and being shot at, and it's no ****ing wonder that he can't decide what he should do. He thinks they're trying to kill him, and I think they were too. He should have dropped on his face and let them do what they were going to do, but he wasn't thinking clearly at all. And the fact remains, his hands never went into his pocket - if they had, even with all the above I wouldn't be griping, but they didn't. His hands went up and down several times, but he never actually went for his gun (that the FBI says was there). I think the guy in the woods with the taser fired and that's why his hands went down right before he was shot.
On top of that, the discovery that FBI agents are lying about whether or not they shot and other FBI agents are lying for them? No, this is not a good shoot. Not at all.
ndcent
New member
I'm saying it doesn't set a precedent and the outrage here is mighty selective.
ben550
New member
That is how it should be but that is not how it works. There is no requirement for officers to wait for a weapon to be in the hand in order to use lethal force. I would argue most shootings occur without a weapon being brandished... Lethal force is used not just against words but now it is used against body language and in some cases dress code adherence...
Is that right? No? But its the way things are now.
I believe his stance is voicing frustration in a sarcastic tone with several commenters being the first to praise police for shooting an "unarmed" gangster in the city... yet when a "patriot" gets gunned down in a rural area by police without fair treatment they cry foul.
I think both should be closely investigated. Either it is an issue or it is not an issue. It can't change because of superficial circumstances.
I believe the message these "protesters" embraced was an overall positive good message, however the way they chose to deliver that message was horribly thought out and an absolute PR disaster.
They looked like amateurs. Sadly, one is now dead and the others have permanent records...
KidVermicious
New member
Well spoken. But even if that is "the way things are", it doesn't make it right.
turbo8
Member
ndcent
New member
After watching the video I didn't see "them open fire on them."
willbgood
New member
You must be blind, either by choice or disability, especially since they have admitted opening fire and are now investigating FBI agents who lied about opening fire.
willbgood
New member
It is now clear that the FBI and the Sheriff, had ample opportunity to arrest Lavoy and Ammon while they were unarmed and visiting.
I have spoken to people from there who said they did not support the occupation, but are now angry and afraid because of the murder of Lavoy. One told me that on several occasion the sherriff and the FBi were in the position to arrest an un armed Ammon and an unarmed Lavoy.
I also spoke with a newly retired police Chief of a major Oregon police department last week and he said after reviewing all the all evidence he can, everything about the stop and the roadblock was illegal. Specifically he stated the road was illegal and has been since the 80's. He even stated they moved the road block at the last minute, when they realized they we in the county that the caravan was traveling too, to see the sheriff.
He believes all the victims will sue, and the suit will hurt Harney county.
https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/videos/981885581888250/
I have spoken to people from there who said they did not support the occupation, but are now angry and afraid because of the murder of Lavoy. One told me that on several occasion the sherriff and the FBi were in the position to arrest an un armed Ammon and an unarmed Lavoy.
I also spoke with a newly retired police Chief of a major Oregon police department last week and he said after reviewing all the all evidence he can, everything about the stop and the roadblock was illegal. Specifically he stated the road was illegal and has been since the 80's. He even stated they moved the road block at the last minute, when they realized they we in the county that the caravan was traveling too, to see the sheriff.
He believes all the victims will sue, and the suit will hurt Harney county.
https://www.facebook.com/bundyranch/videos/981885581888250/
willbgood
New member
But its ok, they broke the law....
What do we do when the police ignore the law, lie with impunity, and cover their misdeeds with the help of the main-stream media?
Lots of questions go unanswered in Oregon; reminders of Bruingate in NC – The Tribune Papers
Lots of questions go unanswered in Oregon; reminders of Bruingate in NC March 23, 2016 Asheville , Hendersonville , News Stories 118 Views Share the story…
thetribunepapers.com
"5th, the roadblock established by the Oregon State Police was illegal as ruled by the United States Supreme Court as it did not allow an avenue of egress for the fleeing vehicle nor did it allow sufficient time or distance for a vehicle to come safely to a stop. The term for this type of road block according to the United States Supreme Court is a “Dead-mans Roadblock.” This is appropriately deemed a Dead-mans Roadblock because there was no alternative course of travel and the roadblock was placed at the end of a blind turn in which the driver could not see the roadblock with sufficient time to react and effect a stop before colliding with the components of the roadblock. A roadblock in and of itself is use of deadly force and in some cases unlawful seizure. The Justice Departments own policy on pursuits and roadblocks read; “Fixed roadblocks are extremely dangerous and are rarely justifiable.”, “…When the road is totally blocked, so that even a slow moving vehicle cannot go around—or through—safely, the degree of risk is heightened. When a complete blockage of the roadway is undertaken, officers should ensure that the oncoming suspect has a clear view of the roadblock, and has ample time to stop safely, should he or she decide to do so. This complete blockage usually represents a higher level of control, and could be constitutionally unreasonable unless properly managed.” As seen in the video, LaVoy clearly applied brakes and kept them on until his vehicle came to a stop 40’ past the point of intended impact with the vehicles used to block the roadway. His brake lights come on midway between the two sign posts and stayed on. He simply could not stop and averted a horrific impact which would have injured and killed the other occupants of the vehicle as well as the officials standing behind and around the trucks. This was a completely intentional, inappropriate use of deadly force. It was in conflict with the US Dept of Justice’s Restrictive policies for High Speed Police Pursuits.
6th Finicum’s vehicle began, once again, taking live fire this time from .223 rifle fire at the exact moment the vehicle crested the corner and approached the ambush. Finicum was never provided the opportunity to slow his vehicle before Law Enforcement began using deadly force, .223 rounds were found to have penetrated the windshield, hood and radiator prior to LaVoy ditching his vehicle into the snow bank. This is confirmed by the FBI drone surveillance video, the Cox cellphone video and officer’s testimony. In testimony the officer that discharged his weapon stated he felt justified in using deadly force due to “It was clear to me, the speed the truck was traveling…was traveling at a speed which I knew from my training and experience, it was…it became apparent to me based off my training and experience as a crash, you know, technician, and overall time as a police officer, I knew there was…it had crossed the threshold of being able to stop prior to…that’s when I felt the use of force was my only option…” In short, the officer discharged his weapon, exercising his intent to implement deadly force and justified that action, because in his training and expertise there was not enough time for the suspect vehicle to stop safely. This confirms point 5 that the roadblock was illegal and intended as an ambush".
Lots of questions go unanswered in Oregon; reminders of Bruingate in NC ? The Tribune Papers
What do we do when the police ignore the law, lie with impunity, and cover their misdeeds with the help of the main-stream media?
Lots of questions go unanswered in Oregon; reminders of Bruingate in NC – The Tribune Papers
Lots of questions go unanswered in Oregon; reminders of Bruingate in NC March 23, 2016 Asheville , Hendersonville , News Stories 118 Views Share the story…
thetribunepapers.com
"5th, the roadblock established by the Oregon State Police was illegal as ruled by the United States Supreme Court as it did not allow an avenue of egress for the fleeing vehicle nor did it allow sufficient time or distance for a vehicle to come safely to a stop. The term for this type of road block according to the United States Supreme Court is a “Dead-mans Roadblock.” This is appropriately deemed a Dead-mans Roadblock because there was no alternative course of travel and the roadblock was placed at the end of a blind turn in which the driver could not see the roadblock with sufficient time to react and effect a stop before colliding with the components of the roadblock. A roadblock in and of itself is use of deadly force and in some cases unlawful seizure. The Justice Departments own policy on pursuits and roadblocks read; “Fixed roadblocks are extremely dangerous and are rarely justifiable.”, “…When the road is totally blocked, so that even a slow moving vehicle cannot go around—or through—safely, the degree of risk is heightened. When a complete blockage of the roadway is undertaken, officers should ensure that the oncoming suspect has a clear view of the roadblock, and has ample time to stop safely, should he or she decide to do so. This complete blockage usually represents a higher level of control, and could be constitutionally unreasonable unless properly managed.” As seen in the video, LaVoy clearly applied brakes and kept them on until his vehicle came to a stop 40’ past the point of intended impact with the vehicles used to block the roadway. His brake lights come on midway between the two sign posts and stayed on. He simply could not stop and averted a horrific impact which would have injured and killed the other occupants of the vehicle as well as the officials standing behind and around the trucks. This was a completely intentional, inappropriate use of deadly force. It was in conflict with the US Dept of Justice’s Restrictive policies for High Speed Police Pursuits.
6th Finicum’s vehicle began, once again, taking live fire this time from .223 rifle fire at the exact moment the vehicle crested the corner and approached the ambush. Finicum was never provided the opportunity to slow his vehicle before Law Enforcement began using deadly force, .223 rounds were found to have penetrated the windshield, hood and radiator prior to LaVoy ditching his vehicle into the snow bank. This is confirmed by the FBI drone surveillance video, the Cox cellphone video and officer’s testimony. In testimony the officer that discharged his weapon stated he felt justified in using deadly force due to “It was clear to me, the speed the truck was traveling…was traveling at a speed which I knew from my training and experience, it was…it became apparent to me based off my training and experience as a crash, you know, technician, and overall time as a police officer, I knew there was…it had crossed the threshold of being able to stop prior to…that’s when I felt the use of force was my only option…” In short, the officer discharged his weapon, exercising his intent to implement deadly force and justified that action, because in his training and expertise there was not enough time for the suspect vehicle to stop safely. This confirms point 5 that the roadblock was illegal and intended as an ambush".
Lots of questions go unanswered in Oregon; reminders of Bruingate in NC ? The Tribune Papers
ndcent
New member
We employ what we call "selective outrage." This is where we only get upset about a potentially unjustified law enforcement shooting because the victim is white and some lame excuse for a "patriot" are ammo to fuel said selective outrage.
Pretty cut and dry basic stuff really.
willbgood
New member
OK, I have been patient, but now I have to tell you I think your a F***ing A*****E and likely a troll.
My outrage is not selective and is the same for any one, any race, any gender, any preference, and against any police abuse.
The crime, or the cause does not matter, if its police abuse, I do not remain silent and on sidelines, and I never defend it even if the abused was an asshat.
Not the case for you.
In fact, I am known for standing up and writing against police abuse on several forums,on facebook, and in the media.
As an ex-cop, I am outraged by all police abuse and the fact that it is getting incrementally worse, both federal, local and state.
So, I am done with you, you can carry on, but I will not waste time with you any more.
My outrage is not selective and is the same for any one, any race, any gender, any preference, and against any police abuse.
The crime, or the cause does not matter, if its police abuse, I do not remain silent and on sidelines, and I never defend it even if the abused was an asshat.
Not the case for you.
In fact, I am known for standing up and writing against police abuse on several forums,on facebook, and in the media.
As an ex-cop, I am outraged by all police abuse and the fact that it is getting incrementally worse, both federal, local and state.
So, I am done with you, you can carry on, but I will not waste time with you any more.
nevada
Senior Member
MudPie
New member
He's neither a ****ing ******* or troll... He's just a typical liberal democrat that can't see the forest through the trees and will continue spewing baseless talking points regardless of fact, logic or reason.
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