Mr. Cheney, Please Quit!
- Thread starter CJ3Flyr
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Jeff Kleb
New member
Talk about going around your azz to get to your elbow!
:bash:
She is a big part of why Congress has the reputation it does -- as socialists & statists who ignore the Constitution and spend us into oblivion while thinking they can micro-manage the economy.
Nice pipe dream, but I believe we are going to be stuck with Ms. Pelosi for many years to come.
Thanks, Commiefornia voters (in her district).
:cursin:
Jeff Kleb said:
I agree with you, in some respects, except for the fact that Capitalism is why we have so many problems in this country- high gas prices are a direct effect of a free market economy as well as the housing market fallout! Lenders, unchecked by the govt., gave loans to any idiot who would take it and screwed most of us over... Don't think socialism is bad without actually investigating it. Many countries, including Sweden, are socialist nations and have better education and health care systems than our own. Sure, there is China and Syria but they are hardly comparable. Just food for thought...
P.S. Someone needs to shoot Cheney, not make him quit
CJ3Flyr
Super Moderator
If we had a national vote to kick Commiefornia out of the Union, I wonder what the results would be... I suspect it would be the Peoples Republic of Commiefornia when all was said and done. :lmao:
It's such a damn shame. I suspect the vast majority of Californians would be livid if they took the time to get educated and understand their chosen elected officials, the positions they take and the
It's such a damn shame. I suspect the vast majority of Californians would be livid if they took the time to get educated and understand their chosen elected officials, the positions they take and the
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Jeff Kleb
New member
tomhaney1 said:I agree with you, in some respects, except for the fact that Capitalism is why we have so many problems in this country- high gas prices are a direct effect of a free market economy as well as the housing market fallout! Lenders, unchecked by the govt., gave loans to any idiot who would take it and screwed most of us over... Don't think socialism is bad without actually investigating it. Many countries, including Sweden, are socialist nations and have better education and health care systems than our own. Sure, there is China and Syria but they are hardly comparable. Just food for thought...
P.S. Someone needs to shoot Cheney, not make him quit
Actually, it is not capitalism that is the problem at all; as everything you mention above was messed up with government interference in the free market (legislation, taxation policy, etc.).
Also, a it was a basturdization {spelling intentional} of capitalism (Enron, California deregulation, etc.) that is to blame for those market failures - even though it was usually some type of government interference that was at the root of the problem. Do you really think that so many of those loans would have been made if they were not encouraged or guaranteed by Uncle Sham? I doubt it.
Likewise, the high oil prices have been the result of a fairly stagnant supply combined with a huge increase in worldwide demand for oil - as countries such as China & India modernize. Add in the weakening "value" of the US Dollar and you need not be **** Tracy to figure out what is happening. Decreasing demand ain't gonna happen -- so we must find a way to increase the supply, or else harvest existing reserves & build new refining capacity.
As for "looking at socialism" -- that ship has already sailed. Castro, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hugo Chavez, Josef Stalin and others of the leftist persuasion have had their chance.
As for Sweden, Germany, France and other countries, realize that they are smaller, have less of a 'welfare class' than we do and they are not having to pay for their defense and keep troops all over the world to protect everyone else. Also, look at their taxation levels and unemployment rate (which would be catastrophic to the USA).
Sadly, we are becoming more of a socialist nation - while many of the former Eastern Bloc nations are moving towards freedom and capitalism.
:bash:
"No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity." -- Ronald Wilson Reagan
:bigok:
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CJ3Flyr
Super Moderator
Jeff Kleb said:
Actually, it is not capitalism that is the problem at all; as everything you mention above was messed up with government interference in the free market (legislation, taxation policy, etc.).
Also, a it was a basturdization {spelling intentional} of capitalism (Enron, California deregulation, etc.) that is to blame for those market failures - even though it was usually some type of government interference that was at the root of the problem. Do you really think that so many of those loans would have been made if they were not encouraged or guaranteed by Uncle Sham? I doubt it.
Likewise, the high oil prices have been the result of a fairly stagnant supply combined with a huge increase in worldwide demand for oil - as countries such as China & India modernize. Add in the weakening "value" of the US Dollar and you need not be **** Tracy to figure out what is happening. Decreasing demand ain't gonna happen -- so we must find a way to increase the supply, or else harvest existing reserves & build new refining capacity.
As for "looking at socialism" -- that ship has already sailed. Castro, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hugo Chavez, Josef Stalin and others of the leftist persuasion have had their chance.
As for Sweden, Germany, France and other countries, realize that they are smaller, have less of a 'welfare class' than we do and they are not having to pay for their defense and keep troops all over the world to protect everyone else. Also, look at their taxation levels and unemployment rate (which would be catastrophic to the USA).
Sadly, we are becoming more of a socialist nation - while many of the former Eastern Bloc nations are moving towards freedom and capitalism.
:bash:
"No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity." -- Ronald Wilson Reagan
:bigok:
:iagree: 100%
Jeff Kleb said:
Actually, it is not capitalism that is the problem at all; as everything you mention above was messed up with government interference in the free market (legislation, taxation policy, etc.).
Also, a it was a basturdization {spelling intentional} of capitalism (Enron, California deregulation, etc.) that is to blame for those market failures - even though it was usually some type of government interference that was at the root of the problem. Do you really think that so many of those loans would have been made if they were not encouraged or guaranteed by Uncle Sham? I doubt it.
Likewise, the high oil prices have been the result of a fairly stagnant supply combined with a huge increase in worldwide demand for oil - as countries such as China & India modernize. Add in the weakening "value" of the US Dollar and you need not be **** Tracy to figure out what is happening. Decreasing demand ain't gonna happen -- so we must find a way to increase the supply, or else harvest existing reserves & build new refining capacity.
As for "looking at socialism" -- that ship has already sailed. Castro, Idi Amin, Pol Pot, Hugo Chavez, Josef Stalin and others of the leftist persuasion have had their chance.
As for Sweden, Germany, France and other countries, realize that they are smaller, have less of a 'welfare class' than we do and they are not having to pay for their defense and keep troops all over the world to protect everyone else. Also, look at their taxation levels and unemployment rate (which would be catastrophic to the USA).
Sadly, we are becoming more of a socialist nation - while many of the former Eastern Bloc nations are moving towards freedom and capitalism.
:bash:
"No nation has ever taxed itself into prosperity." -- Ronald Wilson Reagan
:bigok:
Did you actually quote Ronald Reagan, Mr. give tax breaks to corporations because they will hire people and pay them more, aka supply-side economics!? That sure worked out well! It's funny that you say India is up-and-coming but they actually subsidize oil prices for their citizens.
As for Sweden, Germany, France and other countries, realize that they are smaller, have less of a 'welfare class' than we do and they are not having to pay for their defense and keep troops all over the world to protect everyone else.
I agree with you on half of this. Our country has a huge welfare class- mainly because of the useless unskilled immigrants that squat here. If, as you call it Commiefornia, which is funny as sh@t, would give those bas****s the boot they would pull out of the red so fast it would make their head spin. I guess I assume people will pull their own weight, which is the only way Socialism would work. I don't agree with saying we have to protect everyone in the world- we shoot ourselves in the foot for doing that and have no obligation to do so. If we quit butting into other's issues maybe we wouldn't have people trying to blow us up all the damn time. You know this isn't the first time we have made a cluster f@ck out of Afghanistan, right?? It's funny because I was raised a Democrat in SoCal and Washington but I have many issues about how they will throw money at any idiot with a tear. I also find it ironic that illegals are now infiltrating Canada because Canada actually gives them MORE in public assistance than the US! I guess there's WalMart in Canada too...
Interference by the feds is the only way our economy isn't going to tank. People have already lost hundreds of thousands of dollars with their bank going under and are losing their homes at an alarming rate. I get the "You're a goddam moron for signing an interest-only balloon payment mortgage", because, well, you are if you did but companies take advantage of you- that is what they do. It is their sole responsibility in a free-market economy to take every penny from you that they can and keep as much as they can, making themselves larger and more powerful and us smaller and poorer. Just the nature of the beast. Prosperity for an extreme few and mediocrity for the rest doesn't seem right to me. Call me a tree-hugging hippie if you like but if you were my neighbor I would pay 5 dollars extra per month for you and your family to have health care. The Starbuck's latte I forgo can lick my @ss!
Jeff Kleb
New member
tomhaney1 said:
Actually, Ronald Reagan believed in tax breaks across the board - for everyone - be they rich, poor or somewhere in between. I "came up" during the 1970s and 1980s and believe me when I tell you that the '80s were much, much better! The main thing about Ronaldus Magnus is that he made people believe in themselves and never once doubted the greatness of our nation.
If you have a "rich" guy who gets a 10% tax cut and a "poor" guy who gets a 10% tax cut, of course the rich guy will appear to make out better. Truth is, though, that the so-called "trickle down" (not the best choice of terminology) theory works much, much better than any kind of revolutionist, Marxist or socialist system. Is it perfect? Oh heck no; but it is the best we have that works for us.
Besides, look at revenues to the US Treasury between 1981 and 1989 (the Reagan years). Cutting tax rates worked for ramping up the economy, keeping inflation in check - compared with the 1970s, anyway, and putting people to work. Our problem with the growing deficits and national debt, however, was a result of a spending problem - mostly the fault of Congress. Too many people in our educational system and media like to ignore that little tidbit, as you hear them talk about the "Reagan Deficits" as though Congress has no role to play.
Tax rate cuts were fantastic - and still are today. It worked for JFK, Reagan and even the Shrub; but Congress (both parties) have a spending addiction that no type of taxation system will ever overcome. If revenues increase 50 percent and spending goes up 70 percent, guess what? Yep, a deficit results - along with future debt service that creates an even bigger problem down the road.
It took government a long time to mess things up, and it is not likely that people with the same mentality will be able to fix it. This is why you should never vote for any politician (of either party) who claims that tax cuts cause deficits or that we need to make them "pay for themselves."
:bash:
As for India subsidizing fuel prices, I still don't believe I would want to live there. Do their cars run on curry? Seriously, if it were so great there, why are they all trying to come here and buy Subway stores and Super 8 motel chains? No thanks!
:bigok:
{Just because a government subsidizes something, it does not automatically mean that life is good and nobody suffers. After all, our government pays farmers not to grow crops and they still have problems making ends meet.}
But that in itself is the folly of socialism. Why "pull you own weight" when nobody else will? Why bother to work hard just to support the state or others who lack any work ethic, ingenuity or ambition? That reminds me of Ross Perot with his old, "too many people riding in the wagon and not enough pulling it" analogy from the early 1990s.
As a libertarian-minded conservative, I agree 110% with that!
:awais:
It was the Russians who made the clusterf*ck out of Afghanistan the first time ('79 or '80) and we ended up arming the Muhajadeen - later becoming part of the Taliban - which defeated them. To the USSR, that was their Vietnam.
Anyway, you are right about it evolving into a quagmire for us. We keep "getting in bed" with the enemy of our enemies, thinking that they'll be our friends. Often, though, we do the same thing over and over again. Think of how we got chummy with Saddam Hussein when he was the enemy of Iran (our old nemesis from '79), but then had to kick his tail a decade later after he turned against us and our friend (Kuwait).
I wonder how long it will be before our other "friends" elsewhere end up turning against us.
The "interference" by the government is what helped to create this mess in the first place. Who do you think "underwrites" all those bad loans or forces banks to make loans to people who have terrible credit? Sure, the banks certainly are not innocent parties here; but I am going to end up being punished for this because I live within my means, manage my own affairs, pay my bills on time and bust my arse so that others can "ride in the wagon" as I struggle to pay all of these taxes.
:cursin:
In a true "free-market" economy, you would have more choices, fewer obstacles and could have better control over your own destiny. Besides, "mediocrity" for the rest and success for the chosen few is more of a reality in socialist nations than anywhere else. The classes may be somewhat different, but you still have the patricians and proletariat -- no matter who is in charge.
Pick your poison, right?
Yep, you're a tree-hugger.
:biggrin2:
Seriously, I agree with you about the Starbuck's latte -- as I don't ever touch the stuff. I am too frugal to do that, and pack my lunch cooler with iced tea, fruit juice or cola before I leave in the morning for work.
Nice of you to think of my family & health care, but just what type of plan are you going to get me for five bucks a month? What if I end up demanding that you also give me a house, a car, food stamps, groceries, tobacco products, beer and ten Lotto tickets every week. After all, you have them - so why not me?
Yeah, I am being facetious and would never expect you to buy me anything......but many here probably would!
Oh, here is another quote for you:
"If it moves, tax it. If it still moves, regulate it. Once it stops moving, subsidize it." -- Ronald Reagan
(commenting on government interference with private business)
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Keep on working. Millions on welfare depend on you!
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The "interference" by the government is what helped to create this mess in the first place. Who do you think "underwrites" all those bad loans or forces banks to make loans to people who have terrible credit? Sure, the banks certainly are not innocent parties here; but I am going to end up being punished for this because I live within my means, manage my own affairs, pay my bills on time and bust my arse so that others can "ride in the wagon" as I struggle to pay all of these taxes.
Well there are basically only a handful of banks in the world that provide capital and none are underwritten by the US govt., not even HUD loans, which are done by private lenders but have to abide by the federal regulations. The only thing the govt. does is insure bank accounts, which it only does to 100,000, whereas the Swiss banks, who actually provide much of the entire world's capital, insure them to a cool 1,000,000. I wonder if you really think you pay alot of taxes? We don't pay many taxes in the US but we don't get crap in return either. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the lenders- they did what they are designed to do- make money at any cost. The people were the idiots and now we all have to deal with their poor decisions. What I'm saying is there should be more oversight of the process to protect us from the idiots.
Actually, Ronald Reagan believed in tax breaks across the board - for everyone - be they rich, poor or somewhere in between. I "came up" during the 1970s and 1980s and believe me when I tell you that the '80s were much, much better! The main thing about Ronaldus Magnus is that he made people believe in themselves and never once doubted the greatness of our nation.
What he believed and delivered were two different things. It took all the way to the end of Clinton to pull us out of the hole he and ass-clown 1 created. The spending problem was largely his own by funding the phantom cold war and other "strategic defense" initiatives. It seems to me that believing in one's self is far less important than making a logical decision. Ass-clown 2 believes in himself a whole hell of a lot but makes some piss-poor decisions. Charisma and confidence rarely indicate intelligence...
Well there are basically only a handful of banks in the world that provide capital and none are underwritten by the US govt., not even HUD loans, which are done by private lenders but have to abide by the federal regulations. The only thing the govt. does is insure bank accounts, which it only does to 100,000, whereas the Swiss banks, who actually provide much of the entire world's capital, insure them to a cool 1,000,000. I wonder if you really think you pay alot of taxes? We don't pay many taxes in the US but we don't get crap in return either. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame the lenders- they did what they are designed to do- make money at any cost. The people were the idiots and now we all have to deal with their poor decisions. What I'm saying is there should be more oversight of the process to protect us from the idiots.
Actually, Ronald Reagan believed in tax breaks across the board - for everyone - be they rich, poor or somewhere in between. I "came up" during the 1970s and 1980s and believe me when I tell you that the '80s were much, much better! The main thing about Ronaldus Magnus is that he made people believe in themselves and never once doubted the greatness of our nation.
What he believed and delivered were two different things. It took all the way to the end of Clinton to pull us out of the hole he and ass-clown 1 created. The spending problem was largely his own by funding the phantom cold war and other "strategic defense" initiatives. It seems to me that believing in one's self is far less important than making a logical decision. Ass-clown 2 believes in himself a whole hell of a lot but makes some piss-poor decisions. Charisma and confidence rarely indicate intelligence...
TheBlueWave
New member
tomhaney1 said:
Really? I hate this argument. High taxes force "evil corporations" ("evil" entity that also happens to fund our retirements with the stock market and such in pension and 401k funds) to move elsewhere, like China and Singapore. Its costly enough to meet the environmental requirements (which I agree with completely), now they have to pay huge taxes as well? Our great manufacturing base in this country is being replaced with cheap Chinese junk because of high taxes. Its a shame, a damn shame to see our economy go to a service base while in the meantime our money is leaving our shores en masse to state owned companies in China so we can have the trinkets we all crave so much, instead of durable good from ourselves, Europe and Japan.
All a subsidy does is reenforce that something does not work (aka, no profit on its own). India's citizens obviously can't afford gas, so they shouldn't be driving until they can. I think our own government subsidizes too much (see ethanol from corn for starters) and in turn encourages foolish habits by consumers.
Regualtions are fine, but don't forget that Greenspan encouraged 0% down home loans, a crazy thing to do. Its much easier to walk away when you haven't plunked down $40k of your own money in a $200k home, and the feds didn't see this coming. No bank without being pushed to do so through gov't incentives would write a loan like this.
Ok, out of time, back to work.
Jeff Kleb
New member
Thanks for the kind words, you two. If we are "ideological tripets" or whatever, then so be it.
:girl:
Anyway, I sometimes have to step up to the plate and push back the frontiers of ignorance. Our public school systems have turned so many young minds into mushrooms and the revisionist history has gotten downright pathetic. There are quite a few well-meaning people who cannot come to grips with the fact that results are far often different than intentions.
A lot of otherwise-intelligent people have gotten sucked up into some kind of intellectual void, where common sense is nonexistent and they keep looking to the same people who created the problem to bail them out of it. Unfortunately, as Albert Einstein once said, "No problem will ever be solved at the same level of awareness at which it was created."
Far too many honest, sincere citizens have been convinced that the way to solve any problem is just to spend more money on it. Whatever happened to the idea that you should stop digging after you realize you are in a hole that is getting deeper?
As we down here in the South are likely to say, "That dog just don't hunt!"
I've become very cynical in my "old" age, although I still relish the idea of telling the truth to youngsters regarding the actual intent of our US Constitution and how it has been hijacked by those who seek to further their own political careers by usurping individual sovereignty with socialist, statist and authoritarian hegemony.
I may be a lone voice in the wilderness, but I shall never tire of defending liberty and speaking out against tyranny. I am no fan of Bush (either one of them), but I will stand up against those whose hatred for our President is greater than their love for our country. Besides, Bush is not running again (thankfully). To those who are enamored with a socialist candidate, be careful what you wish for.......as you just may end up getting it.
:biggrin2:
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"It is not that liberals are ignorant; they just know so much that isn't so." -- Ronald Reagan
"They who sacrifice essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security." -- Benjamin Franklin
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Dipshit is still way too healthy to die though... We should let the people whos houses have been forelcosed upon live in the white house until they find another place... It's becoming quite apparent that the Bush administration created this mess we're in right now; however, finger-pointing won't dig us out of this mess. I appreciate this forum because people can share open ideas about their ideals and beliefs, and about one common passion that inexorably unites us.
