My rear seals and wheel bearings thread

[Previologist]

The much dreaded, much procrastinated, smelly oily messy day has arrived. Thank goodness i smashed up my other Toyota in July, so i could avoid this job to work on that one. Well I can't avoid it any longer, winter is coming and this is my rustbucket winter driver.

Hopefully my next post will be "yay, I'm done" because I'm just pulling the axles and having the local driveline shop do the real work. But just in case...

 

[T4R2014]

Hopefully these guys follow directions on how far to press the new seal retainer. Tbh, I would inquire on how they plan to remove the old retainer. Cutoff wheel can lead to cuts in the shaft. It just introduces more opportunities to leak. It may be worth buying the tool and letting them use it, assuming they are willing to use it.

 

[Previologist]

Hopefully these guys follow directions on how far to press the new seal retainer. Tbh, I would inquire on how they plan to remove the old retainer. Cutoff wheel can lead to cuts in the shaft. It just introduces more opportunities to leak. It may be worth buying the tool and letting them use it, assuming they are willing to use it.

These guys are driveline specialists and do work for many of the area shops including some Toyota dealers. My (limited) understanding is that the retaner is only an issue with the updated OEM seal, and if you use aftermarket seals the retainer issue is not an issue. They use Koyo bearings, but aftermarket seals of a brand I can't remember, but I looked them up a while back and they make quality stuff.

 

[T4R2014]

These guys are driveline specialists and do work for many of the area shops including some Toyota dealers. My (limited) understanding is that the retaner is only an issue with the updated OEM seal, and if you use aftermarket seals the retainer issue is not an issue. They use Koyo bearings, but aftermarket seals of a brand I can't remember, but I looked them up a while back and they make quality stuff.

I would guess they use Timken, which is actually an OEM supplier for Toyota in Tacomas, Tundras and Sequoias. That being said, you might want to look into the results of using non-OEM seals. They might also use National, which is owned by Federal Mogul which is world renowned for selling Chinese junk that might be a slight upgrade for cars that were poorly spec'd to begin with.

 

[Previologist]

I would guess they use Timken, which is actually an OEM supplier for Toyota in Tacomas, Tundras and Sequoias. That being said, you might want to look into the results of using non-OEM seals. They might also use National, which is owned by Federal Mogul which is world renowned for selling Chinese junk that might be a slight upgrade for cars that were poorly spec'd to begin with.

They told me the name but all I can remember, or think I can remember, is that it started with an E

I would remember Timken. I will ask them again, maybe they will let me bring OEM but then I'd have to school them on how to install the retainers and I just don't think they would like that. I do not want to piss them off, they are very good but they can get grumpy and defensive and there are no better shops within 3 hours.

 

[T4R2014]

They told me the name but all I can remember, or think I can remember, is that it started with an E

I would remember Timken. I will ask them again, maybe they will let me bring OEM but then I'd have to school them on how to install the retainers and I just don't think they would like that. I do not want to piss them off, they are very good but they can get grumpy and defensive and there are no better shops within 3 hours.

Elring? Great on Euro cars, actually never heard of them used on a Toyota 8" rear diff. Or if they even make a seal for that matter. I get wanting to let professionals do their job, but this one truly sucks to do twice.

 

[Previologist]

Elring? Great on Euro cars, actually never heard of them used on a Toyota 8" rear diff. Or if they even make a seal for that matter. I get wanting to let professionals do their job, but this one truly sucks to do twice.

I don't think that was it. I'll find out tomorrow. i will have a good discussion with them about the issues, to the best of my own limited understanding.

Mechanics can be like doctors, they don't really appreciate being told how to do their jobs so its a delicate discussion to have.

 

[Malcolm99]

Having done this job on 4 3rd gens/x8 axles with the special tool using all OEM parts and never having an issue I find it interesting all this talk of non OEM and flipping retainers. The only time I came close to having an issue was when the job had been done without measuring it before I got the job, so I went buy my old measurements I happened to take photos of. You are suppose to use the depth gauge on a caliper to measure the retainer ring position and then press it back together as close as possible to that position, and the seal needs to be put back into its seated position aswell, the sharpie test with help identify where the seal is riding on the retainer ring. the most common reason for the seal change was plugged diff breather.

 

[Previologist]

Having done this job on 4 3rd gens/x8 axles with the special tool using all OEM parts and never having an issue I find it interesting all this talk of non OEM and flipping retainers. The only time I came close to having an issue was when the job had been done without measuring it before I got the job, so I went buy my old measurements I happened to take photos of. You are suppose to use the depth gauge on a caliper to measure the retainer ring position and then press it back together as close as possible to that position, and the seal needs to be put back into its seated position aswell, the sharpie test with help identify where the seal is riding on the retainer ring. the most common reason for the seal change was plugged diff breather.

Well don't take anything I say without a few lbs of salt because I'm admittedly out of my depth on this. Just saying what I think I have gleaned from the giant thread here.

And yeah, when I discovered the leakage (both side drums were completely drenched in grease and oil) my breather was clogged. I unclogged it and was forced to drive it for 2.5 months anyway (after spraying down both sides with a couple cans of brake cleaner) because my other vehicle was out of commission. When I pulled the drums yesterday one side was completely dry, with only a little new grease/oil on the other side. But the leakage was so bad before I cleaned the breather I'm sure there's little grease left in my bearings. With 310,000 miles on them it doesn't make sense not to change them now...

 

[Ibrad]

I'm doing this on my rig. It has 242,000 and I'm assuming the original seals and bearings. I "heard" mine going bad instead of smelling and seeing grease all over my tires and wheel wells. I used 90310-50006 Toyota wheel seal. I swapped the retainers and did the grease test. Replaced the bearings, dust seals and orings too. I used the rear wheel axle bearing puller and tone ring tool/installer. Got it off Amazon. It's very well made and worth the price. It allowed me to reuse the tone ring and retainer also. It's a straightforward job but having to reset everything to either press out bearings or push the axle in took some time. I have a 20 ton press but I think a 12 ton would work. Others have said how stuck the retainers and bearings are to the axle but mine weren't to bad.

 

[Previologist]

Yeah I know my limits and observe them. :

I got one axle out. Gonna just loosen the nuts and wait on the other till I can ask if I can leave the brakes on and not get charged extra for it. It will be easier to remove them with the axle in place.

But I now realize that the (for some) problematic seal is the one in the axle housing, and that is the one I have to replace myself. So now I'm not sure if I should buy OEM or not, or whether I should try and find the old OEM design if any exist.

 

[WayneM]

...So now I'm not sure if I should buy OEM or not, or whether I should try and find the old OEM design if any exist.

No question OE Toyota or likely OEM will be good. But, don't over worry about it. I replaced my rear bearings and seals with complete Beck-Arnley sets from RockAuto. The set included bearing, both seals, retainer rings, ABS rotor, o-ring, ... whole enchilada, for I think $21. They are working great. Of course, YMMV.

 

[Malcolm99]

They do not need the brake shoes and hardware removed but you will need to replace the shoes anyways since they have been oil saturated and will cause other issues over time, and it would make the press work slightly easier. if they have the proper tools you should be able to save 2 retainer rings and 2 abs tone rings, OEM retainer rings seem to press on much easier from my experience and I replace the rings the seal rides on to insure no leaks and for the price I usually advise replacing the dust seal aswell.

 

[Previologist]

They do not need the brake shoes and hardware removed but you will need to replace the shoes anyways since they have been oil saturated and will cause other issues over time, and it would make the press work slightly easier. if they have the proper tools you should be able to save 2 retainer rings and 2 abs tone rings, OEM retainer rings seem to press on much easier from my experience and I replace the rings the seal rides on to insure no leaks and for the price I usually advise replacing the dust seal aswell.

They said I could leave the brakes on as long as I clean them.
They said they don't reuse retainers. Confirmed they use Koyo bearings. I ordered OEM inner seals.

My brakes worked remarkably well even when they were saturated with grease and oil. I may have to postpone replacing them until next year, but we'll see.

 

[Previologist]

Can't get that durned seal out of the housing. My HF slide hammer puller can't even grip it properly, no matter which end hooks I use. My Lisle seal puller isn't working and my HF manual hook type puller has the most potential but I'm scared it will scratch the housing in a major way, which it has already done in a minor way.

 

[brillo_76]

They said I could leave the brakes on as long as I clean them.
They said they don't reuse retainers. Confirmed they use Koyo bearings. I ordered OEM inner seals.

My brakes worked remarkably well even when they were saturated with grease and oil. I may have to postpone replacing them until next year, but we'll see.

You can do that if you wish.. I would keep an eye on the shoes as sometimes the shoes will breakdown from being soaked in gear oil. I also don't think they will ever brake as good as clean shoes.

 

[Ibrad]

For me I used my slide hammer. I tried the 3 jaw puller attachment with it first but it wouldn't grab hold of the seal good so I used the one hook puller attachment and mine came out very easy. As far as scratches go, only worry about the sealing surface and not the surrounding metal in the axle. I would not use the old brakes at all. I mean at worst they cost $40 bucks to buy and less than that for cheaper ones. The brake shoes may come apart on you and cause a whole other can of worms if you don't replace them now.

 

[mtbtim]

Having done this job on 4 3rd gens/x8 axles with the special tool using all OEM parts and never having an issue I find it interesting all this talk of non OEM and flipping retainers. The only time I came close to having an issue was when the job had been done without measuring it before I got the job, so I went buy my old measurements I happened to take photos of. You are suppose to use the depth gauge on a caliper to measure the retainer ring position and then press it back together as close as possible to that position, and the seal needs to be put back into its seated position aswell, the sharpie test with help identify where the seal is riding on the retainer ring. the most common reason for the seal change was plugged diff breather.

The reason for the flipping of the inner retainer is because Toyota redesigned the axle seal some time in the past. The seal lip now sits approximately 2mm more inboard than before. If you place the inner retainer in the same location on the axle shaft as before, the seal will be riding very close to the non-polished bevel. Over time with a little bearing play, the seal could end up riding on the bevel and fail. By flipping the orientation of the inner retainer, the seal doesn't have to first go past the bevel to get up onto the polished shoulder of the retainer, so You effectively gain that 2mm back. With the retainer in the original orientation, bevel facing the seal, you would have to move the retainer further up the axle shaft to get the seal riding closer to the center of the polished shoulder. When you do this, you are getting that retainer very close, if not rubbing the inside of the axle housing.

So, this is the science behind the flipping of the inner retainer and is well-documented in Dr. Coffee write-up and documented in my videos.

 

[mtbtim]

OP, if you haven't watched my videos yet on this repair, do yourself a favor and watch both to learn what makes this repair successful. Part 2 is mainly an introduction to a newer and better axle toolset and gives updates to the repair. Also read the comment I pinned (1st comment you see) for further updates and information not shared in the videos.

Regardless of the supposed experience level of the shop you're using to do the press work, this job has got to be the #1 job I've seen shops screw up time and time again.

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[Previologist]

OP, if you haven't watched my videos yet on this repair, do yourself a favor and watch both to learn what makes this repair successful. Part 2 is mainly an introduction to a newer and better axle toolset and gives updates to the repair. Also read the comment I pinned (1st comment you see) for further updates and information not shared in the videos.

Regardless of the supposed experience level of the shop you're using to do the press work, this job has got to be the #1 job I've seen shops screw up time and time again.

I have watched most of your vids and read a big chuck of the giant end-all wheel bearing thread. All I can do is ask them to reverse the inner retainer, but I have a feeling they will either decline, or tell me they won't warranty their work if they do it that way. I trust that you are correct but they aren't going to take the word of some guy on youtube, you know? Now if Toyota has acknowledged this issue that might be different.

This is why I contempated using an aftermarket seal in the first place, because I thought those were more like the original OEM design, even if they are lower quality.

I'm bringing the ales in to the shop tomorrow so I need to decide what I'm doing fast.