NEW Land Rover Defender's To Come Back to US Market?

JohnsD90 said:
SUV's are not built specifically with off road in mind, the whole Utility concept will be lost, and too me that means more than being able to offroad better than their older counterparts, They are multipurpose vehicles, especially the Defender, and what will also be lost with the defender atleast is being a complete breakdown vehicle, and you should know from all your F-ing consumer reports that being with reliablity the way you make it sound, you want to be able to take stuff apart easily and quickly without any special tools and in the middle of no where.
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Well, lets face it, even the current Defender is no piece of cake to take apart. In fact, i would bet that LR parts are harder to find around the world than Toyota parts. Could this explain why in 3rd world nations you see Toyotas and not Land Rovers?? Many years ago, Land Rover factories in far off land closed down only to be opened up again by Toyota.

And as you may know, not having to fix the darn thing in the middle of nowhere is A LOT BETTER than having to do so...and this is where Toyota is far superior to Land Rover. Another example? Prior gen Jeep Wrangler. This thing could be fixed easily (when it had I6 engine) and hosed down. Yet, this never caught on throughout the world...despite having aftermarket support that was second to none. In the far off places, RELIABILITY and DURABILITY are king...and this is where a Toyota rules...yes, even MODERN Toyotas.

Looking around on the news, hell, i even see more Mercedes G-wagens than Defenders...but there is no doubt, there are tons of Toyotas running around in 3rd world nations.

JohnsD90 said:
Sort of, but i was getting at the defender specifically, i dont hold 4Runners to the same standard seeing as the 4runner was only breifly "let me get hose" to clean the interior vehicle, and the 4runner still has most of the utility as when it started. Where as the Defender started as this Farmers truck/military truck/offroader/Utility Van, and what i forsee in the next generation will basically be a cross between the freelander and the Discovery with badge that says defender on it.
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I think that Land Rover (or its owner, Tata Indian Motors) has given up on being the 3rd world nation car...they lost that "honor" long time ago. Again, nostalgia is good, but for the most part, not reality.

But, to be fair, Tata has done good. They have understood heritage of the brands that they bought and have made strides...see Jaguar. So, i would not bash them just yet.
 
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CraigRoberts said:
Can I rant?

The new emissions & MPG standards are re****ed. So much for capitalism and "freedom." If gas prices keep going up, the vast majority will only be buying high MPG vehicles. Why make it impossible/illegal for those who want to and can afford to go for a larger vehicle?

On top of that, Top Gear (UK) had a great piece pointing out that over its lifetime a Prius will do more environmental damage than a BMW M3 because of the exotic materials and extensive energy required to mine the materials required in the Prius' complex battery system. ALSO, if a Prius driver tries to push their car hard (like flooring it around a track) it actually gets WORSE MPG than a M3 going at the same pace. Its mostly about how you drive. As usual, these politically-motivated moves only sound good on paper and when you're boasting to the press in sound-bites, but actually just hurt the environment and consumer more in reality.

If they really cared, they'd make Diesel prices even/less than Unleaded and let us import some Hiluxes.
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I don't think that the government is banning big SUVs. I think that as gas prices go up, CONSUMERS don't buy them. Sales go down. Manufacturers are cutting production (or stopping them altogether in some cases) because SALES are falling. Yes, MPG standard are being instituted, but that goes along with the rising gas prices and the push for manufacturers to become more responsible in looking for ways to improve their designs. For examples, turbos are making a comeback! Direct injection is becoming more mainstream. Aren't these technologies good for everyone??

Just look at 4runner 4th gen sales. Even before MPG standard was pushed by Obama (not a fan of him BTW), 4runner V8 sales were piss-poor. Why? It is because with rising gas prices, no one wants them.

Emissions? Is it so bad to clean up our air? I am not an environmentalist, but i don't see much to complain about.

As for the Prius, see: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/all-other-vehicles/67595-prius-bad-environment-vs-hummer.html

Unfortunately, there are plenty of confused folks out there pushing this agenda without much research. :(

And yes, if you push a car's powertrain to the limit, then it will use a lot of gas. What Top Gear should have done was measure fuel economy of a Prius at WOT (wide open throttle) vs. an M3 at WOT. Now, you can measure the fuel economy on even grounds. The fact that Top Gear did that test shows their bias and ignorance...and shocking considering that they are gearheads!!:rockthrow: The same can be said if you push Toyota Corolla at WOT and compare that to an M3 at highway speed. Dumb comparison.

And just to be clear, a Prius at 85 mph gets about 37 mpg on the highway...and i would bet that an M3 at that speed uses a lot more gas. In fact, when i had my M3 (2003.5 model), i got around 18-19 mpg at that speed on the highway. M3: premium gas. Prius: regular gas.

Diesels...good concept, but poor execution in most cases. Honda diesels are nice however...but can't get pass EPA emission standards. :(

And for real-world use, see my posts: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/all-other-vehicles/65568-my-new-car-5.html (scroll down to see actual pics of my fuel economy)

And you can also see the Consumer Reports article on longevity of hybrid battery in the Prius.
 
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KCcarguy said:
OK. Gotcha....yeah that sucks. New vehicles in general are getting less specialized and more generic. I think partially to meet new government regulations and partially as a result of market forces. I guess Toyota will be the only ones making a true utility vehicle, albeit not in the US.

Im sooo jealous of the aussies:

Toyota LandCruiser 70 Home Australia
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Wow. I wonder how much it would cost to get a left hand drive conversion.
 
P
Thai said:
I don't think that the government is banning big SUVs. I think that as gas prices go up, CONSUMERS don't buy them. Sales go down. Manufacturers are cutting production (or stopping them altogether in some cases) because SALES are falling. Yes, MPG standard are being instituted, but that goes along with the rising gas prices and the push for manufacturers to become more responsible in looking for ways to improve their designs. For examples, turbos are making a comeback! Direct injection is becoming more mainstream. Aren't these technologies good for everyone??

Just look at 4runner 4th gen sales. Even before MPG standard was pushed by Obama (not a fan of him BTW), 4runner V8 sales were piss-poor. Why? It is because with rising gas prices, no one wants them.

Emissions? Is it so bad to clean up our air? I am not an environmentalist, but i don't see much to complain about.

As for the Prius, see: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/all-other-vehicles/67595-prius-bad-environment-vs-hummer.html

Unfortunately, there are plenty of confused folks out there pushing this agenda without much research. :(

And yes, if you push a car's powertrain to the limit, then it will use a lot of gas. What Top Gear should have done was measure fuel economy of a Prius at WOT (wide open throttle) vs. an M3 at WOT. Now, you can measure the fuel economy on even grounds. The fact that Top Gear did that test shows their bias and ignorance...and shocking considering that they are gearheads!!:rockthrow: The same can be said if you push Toyota Corolla at WOT and compare that to an M3 at highway speed. Dumb comparison.

And just to be clear, a Prius at 85 mph gets about 37 mpg on the highway...and i would bet that an M3 at that speed uses a lot more gas. In fact, when i had my M3 (2003.5 model), i got around 18-19 mpg at that speed on the highway. M3: premium gas. Prius: regular gas.

Diesels...good concept, but poor execution in most cases. Honda diesels are nice however...but can't get pass EPA emission standards. :(

And for real-world use, see my posts: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/all-other-vehicles/65568-my-new-car-5.html (scroll down to see actual pics of my fuel economy)

And you can also see the Consumer Reports article on longevity of hybrid battery in the Prius.
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I think the point top gear is trying to make is that different vehicles have different purposes. The M3 is built to go fast.......the prius is built to be efficient. Both achieve their goal.

You argue that market forces are driving the decline in SUV sales.......then you praise CAFE standards? I think economics will take care of the problem without the government's interference.

I worry about CAFE standards and other "environmental" initiatives. I don't want things to get to a point where a bunch of city-guys in Washington make utility vehicles unavailable/ unaffordable to people in rural areas.
 
KCcarguy said:
I worry about CAFE standards and other "environmental" initiatives. I don't want things to get to a point where a bunch of city-guys in Washington make utility vehicles unavailable/ unaffordable to people in rural areas.
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I doubt it since our farmers (and other folks) depend on these vehicles. However, economics and CAFE will force manufacturers to make more efficient powertrains. Nothing wrong with that...thus, my comments above.
 
Sounds great in theory. You don't think the of cost new materials/ technology necessary to achieve greater effeciency will be passed on to the consumer? You don't worry about construction quality/ durability suffering? And what about the basic principle of allowing consumers to determine what they buy and not the government? Are we not capable of making our own decisions?
 
KCcarguy said:
Sounds great in theory. You don't think the of cost new materials/ technology necessary to achieve greater effeciency will be passed on to the consumer? You don't worry about construction quality/ durability suffering? And what about the basic principle of allowing consumers to determine what they buy and not the government? Are we not capable of making our own decisions?
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Well, the Ford Focus has Direct Injection...the Chevy Cruze has a small 1.4 L turbo. Both have 6-speed trannies; Ford uses DUAL CLUTCH automanual (better technology than our SMGs!) and Chevy uses traditional 6-speed auto. I am sure that the upcoming Corolla significant facelift (not the 2011 crap redesign) will feature something along these lines. We're talking ECONOBOXES here...and look at what technology they ALREADY have! And these cars can be had for under $20,000. And look at all the upcoming hybrid cars...well below $30k. (Hell, with the Ford Focus, you can even get torque-vectoring front differential!!)

Ford Ecoboost has already made its way to the Ford F150...with surprising positive results! See: 2011 Ford F-150 EcoBoost V6 SuperCrew First Drive

Tow capacity: 11,300 lbs!

And off-road and durability you say? See: 2011 Ford F-150 With EcoBoost Engine To Run Baja 1000

In other words, without this bad economy and the CAFE whatever crap, Ford may not have gone this far to make this engine.

When did i say that the government will take over?? They don't have to. CONSUMERS will decide that for them long before Congress even finishes wiping their arse with our dollar bills!

And the slumping SUVs and truck sales? Well, CAFE has not really begun enforcing anything yet. So, the slumping sales are due to economy and people's perspective changing. Take me. I used to own one of the thirstiest auto on the planet. I have had 4runner, M3 (2003.5 SMGII), etc.. I am not really green...i recycle plastic whenever i can but don't go out of my way to do much else. I am not an environmentalist. But, you know what? With the economy dying, fuel prices going up, and job requirements getting tougher on my cars, i went with the Prius to save some money. People's perspective are changing...showing off your new car is not cool anymore. People are staying put with their money. Car manufacturers (along with jewelry, etc.) are seeing this trend...they must adapt or they will lose.
 
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Thai said:
Well, the Ford Focus has Direct Injection...the Chevy Cruze has a small 1.4 L turbo. Both have 6-speed trannies; Ford uses DUAL CLUTCH automanual (better technology than our SMGs!) and Chevy uses traditional 6-speed auto. I am sure that the upcoming Corolla significant facelift (not the 2011 crap redesign) will feature something along these lines. We're talking ECONOBOXES here...and look at what technology they ALREADY have! And these cars can be had for under $20,000. And look at all the upcoming hybrid cars...well below $30k. (Hell, with the Ford Focus, you can even get torque-vectoring front differential!!)

Ford Ecoboost has already made its way to the Ford F150...with surprising positive results! See: 2011 Ford F-150 EcoBoost V6 SuperCrew First Drive

Tow capacity: 11,300 lbs!

And off-road and durability you say? See: 2011 Ford F-150 With EcoBoost Engine To Run Baja 1000

In other words, without this bad economy and the CAFE whatever crap, Ford may not have gone this far to make this engine.

When did i say that the government will take over?? They don't have to. CONSUMERS will decide that for them long before Congress even finishes wiping their arse with our dollar bills!

And the slumping SUVs and truck sales? Well, CAFE has not really begun enforcing anything yet. So, the slumping sales are due to economy and people's perspective changing. Take me. I used to own one of the thirstiest auto on the planet. I have had 4runner, M3 (2003.5 SMGII), etc.. I am not really green...i recycle plastic whenever i can but don't go out of my way to do much else. I am not an environmentalist. But, you know what? With the economy dying, fuel prices going up, and job requirements getting tougher on my cars, i went with the Prius to save some money. People's perspective are changing...showing off your new car is not cool anymore. People are staying put with their money. Car manufacturers (along with jewelry, etc.) are seeing this trend...they must adapt or they will lose.
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I think the new CAFE standards (Government-mandated 35MPG by 2020) are pretty tough and I believe the rules within the standards have changed regarding light truck exemptions, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporate_Average_Fuel_Economy

CAFE is extremely complicated and I don't have the time/ patience to study it and get a complete understanding. In the end, I think we agree these changes are primarily market-driven and not CAFE driven. And I don't have a problem with progress, I just think it should happen naturally and not because some authority figure thinks he knows what's best for us.

As far as trends in autos changing. I think things have definitely calmed-down from the excess of the early 2000's. Driving a G-wagen is pretty extreme. I don't think driving a 4runner is "showing off".

Again...some of us need a 4WD SUV. I'm not going to feel bad about it. A Prius (the brilliant piece of engineering it is) won't get me to work in 12" of snow, or tow a boat, or haul my family and camping gear, or transport a 7ft tree from home depot to my house, etc.

If you had a G-Class as a fashion statement, it makes a lot of sense to trade it.....especially since Prius's (prii?) are fashion-statements in there own right. But if you actually needed an SUV, it just wouldn't be possible.

In a perfect world, I'd have a big garage with a vehicle for every purpose. However, because I want to be smart with my money, I'll drive my SUV every day instead. I just hope there's a replacement available out there when this one wears-out. Or maybe I'll get the 4runner paid-off and buy a eco-box for commuting.
 
KCcarguy said:
If you had a G-Class as a fashion statement, it makes a lot of sense to trade it.....especially since Prius's (prii?) are fashion-statements in there own right. But if you actually needed an SUV, it just wouldn't be possible.
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I bought the G in 2004...for one reason...i wanted a proven off-roader with lockers. The major competition back then was the Wrangler Rubicon...but it did not come with ABS (a basic requirement by me). No, my G was far from being a fashion statement...i have way too many scratches on it with powdercoated aftermarket sliders and M/Ts...oh yeah, it was never washed either! It was my weekend fun car.

Prius is not a fashion car for me either...i need it for the stuff i wrote above. Trust me, i don't drive around my neighborhood with windows down flaunting my green car! :D

For me, i don't need a SUV other than for fun. Down the road, i may get a 5th gen 4runner (Trail) as my family car once my kids get older...to replace my Sienna, which our family love to death at this time!
 
Maritimer said:
No way! OMG. I just looked it up and that **** is bonkers. Those are such awesome trucks they have.
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Yeah Lady in my town bought a rebuilt 1983 110 Lefty with a 300tdi, i spent like an hour talking to her, i had talked to her prior about her other 1994 D90 Soft Top.

Id rather buy this (hers) than drop the same amount on a new so called "defender".

10643685.jpg~original
 
The overall shape looks like an FJ with a longer front clip. Also, it looks like they went to IRS (but the picture could be deceiving). :ybrick:
 
JohnsD90 said:
Saw it yesterday, i would like to hear everyone elses thoughts...

I stand by my previous words that it should be killed off.
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I still have faith in Tata...they have kept the heritage of the other brand...hopefully, they will do the same with LR Defender.
 
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