Oil changes beyond 100K miles
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philsey
New member
Perverted logic. If more frequent OCs benefit engine longevity at 100,000 then they also benefit it at 90,000, and 80,000 .... see where I'm goin' with this?
When a "mechanic like Schweitzer" has run 10 identical motors, under identical circumstances, to 200,000 miles, 5 with 3k OCs, and 5 with 10K OCs (like Toyota probably has), then I'll believe him.
Another "smarter than Toyota" theory. Not buying it ...
When a "mechanic like Schweitzer" has run 10 identical motors, under identical circumstances, to 200,000 miles, 5 with 3k OCs, and 5 with 10K OCs (like Toyota probably has), then I'll believe him.
Another "smarter than Toyota" theory. Not buying it ...
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1engineer
Moderator
Found this: What do you guys think?
I'm thinking there is some logic to it, but even if you DON'T adhere to this advice, your motor will STILL last 200,000+ miles.
I have a list of 100 mechanical engineers that say change your oil every 3-5K... oh wait... no, actually I don't have even a list of ONE mechanical engineer that says that lol.
If you drive continuously off road or continuously pull a 5K trailer or race in the BAJA then you need to change your synthetic oil more often. If you drive regularly (which 99.9% of us do), then 10K is probably a conservative number. 15-20K would be closer to a correct interval on oil change for the 4Runner. Now, changing your oil FILTER every 10K is probably about right.
Toyotayoda
New member
For years Toyota has had the 5k interval using conventional oil, and 10k using synthetic. The only exceptions to that are the 1ur and 3ur tundras that use synthetic 0w20 and have a 5k oil change interval, or like 1engineer has put it"If you drive continuously off road or continuously pull a 5K trailer or race in the BAJA". I use conventional in my 97 t4r and change at 5k miles, it now has 281k miles on it and still strong, uses 1 qt in between the changes, changing at 3k is a waste in a toyota. if you drive a hyundai that may be a different story.
4Reak Show
New member
I'm no engineer. I didn't go to 8 years of schooling, nor did I accrue large quantities of debt to obtain a plaque and a career earning enough to own a yacht... What I have is knowledge of vehicles, 10 years of experience in the field (that's 20,000+ hours of real world scenarios), and countless examples of neglect and ignorance destroying and otherwise useful machine. I also see the arrogance of engineers on a daily basis based on design alone. Trying to take out a single part turns into a Hydra wherein the removal of one piece requires the removal of 2 more, each one requiring the removal of 2 more, until you end up with a pile of parts to change a light bulb. I find myself swearing daily at engineers I'll never meet because they all designed "the perfect car" and thusly built it in a manor that is far from friendly. But I digress.
I don't think many people fully understand what is occuring in an internal combustion engine. At 3,000 RPM's the crankshaft has revolved 50 times in one second. (One-one-thousand) fifth times! And try and process the BILLIONS of revolutions occuring while ordering a delicious number 7 from your favorite burger joint. Temperatures, pressures, the absolute FILTH involved in burning fossil fuels...changing oil every 10,000 means youve put trust in those that didn't get it right to make light bulbs easy to install. And for vested interest? Wouldn't recommending a longer interval and potentially shortening your vehicle's life be vested interest as well? Do whatever you wish, but I cannot even consider letting any one of my vehicles go over 5,000 miles. Period.
It's a disgusting environment we force oil to live in, and asking it to go that far is foolish.
Of course, I'm no engineer.
And yes, a Hyundai wouldn't last at 10K intervals.
I don't think many people fully understand what is occuring in an internal combustion engine. At 3,000 RPM's the crankshaft has revolved 50 times in one second. (One-one-thousand) fifth times! And try and process the BILLIONS of revolutions occuring while ordering a delicious number 7 from your favorite burger joint. Temperatures, pressures, the absolute FILTH involved in burning fossil fuels...changing oil every 10,000 means youve put trust in those that didn't get it right to make light bulbs easy to install. And for vested interest? Wouldn't recommending a longer interval and potentially shortening your vehicle's life be vested interest as well? Do whatever you wish, but I cannot even consider letting any one of my vehicles go over 5,000 miles. Period.
It's a disgusting environment we force oil to live in, and asking it to go that far is foolish.
Of course, I'm no engineer.
And yes, a Hyundai wouldn't last at 10K intervals.
MisplacedTexan
New member
So no matter how far science progresses with new oils and additives to extend useful life you'll stick to the 1980-ish 3k oil change?
If thats the case, better start changing that transmission fluid, differential fluid, and flushing that radiator out. I mean yea, the engineers say that those fluids will last too, but you know....can't trust them.
Heck, I fly helicopters and have to get an oil change ever 50 hours of use. Guess I better ignore what the engineers figured was an acceptable level of use and start doing my oil changes every 20 hours.
4Reak Show
New member
So I'm honestly NOT trying to start warfare or annoy or troll (I actually have a different thread for that).
I'm trying to educate and give perspective based on factual evidence and first-hand experience. Humor me for this example of engine stress:
at 60 miles per hour, that's 1 mile per minute, so that's 10,000 minutes (for 10K miles). Let's say on average the engine runs at about 2,000 revolutions per minute. (Sometimes different for idling, or acceleration so please bear with me). 2,000 revolutions per 10,000 minutes= 20,000,000 (yeah, twenty-million) crankshaft revolutions for that 10K interval.
Going further, 2 crankshaft revolutions for a COMPLETE engine cycle of all cylinders: 10,000,000 engine cycles. For a 6 cylinder: 1,666,667 complete cycles PER CYLINDER.
(1,250,000 for an 8 cylinder).
I can't wrap my mind around allowing the oil to protect my engine's internal parts for that amount of time.
Or how about this:
To my knowledge the oil ITSELF doesn't wear out, the additives do. That's the detergents, anti-foaming, moisture absorbing, and lubrication addictives. (That's also why they can recycle it, right?)
Anyway, that stuff only works for so long. If you took a bowl of water, and added some Dawn dish soap and used it and it alone to wash your hands, eventually the water would be cloudy, and even further it would stop cleaning once it absorbs all it can. But keep using that same bowl for 20,000,000 hand washes and id be stunned if the last time you washed your hands was just as clean as the first.
All I can say is that there is a DIRECT relationship between poor maintenance/extended intervals and vehicle's condition. They leak more, they have more problems. Period. I see it every day.
Look at Toyota ATF: WS(world standard). They claim it lifetime fluid. Well of course it will last exactly the lifetime of the transmission. Quite a good marketing ploy. But on my wife's 2011 Corolla at 50K it looked like a fresh pot of foldger's, not ruby red.
We're all fortunate to own toyotas, but they too will break down. So for $60 and 1/2 hour of time, why not protect the $40,000-$60,000 investment?
Rant over...for now
I'm trying to educate and give perspective based on factual evidence and first-hand experience. Humor me for this example of engine stress:
at 60 miles per hour, that's 1 mile per minute, so that's 10,000 minutes (for 10K miles). Let's say on average the engine runs at about 2,000 revolutions per minute. (Sometimes different for idling, or acceleration so please bear with me). 2,000 revolutions per 10,000 minutes= 20,000,000 (yeah, twenty-million) crankshaft revolutions for that 10K interval.
Going further, 2 crankshaft revolutions for a COMPLETE engine cycle of all cylinders: 10,000,000 engine cycles. For a 6 cylinder: 1,666,667 complete cycles PER CYLINDER.
(1,250,000 for an 8 cylinder).
I can't wrap my mind around allowing the oil to protect my engine's internal parts for that amount of time.
Or how about this:
To my knowledge the oil ITSELF doesn't wear out, the additives do. That's the detergents, anti-foaming, moisture absorbing, and lubrication addictives. (That's also why they can recycle it, right?)
Anyway, that stuff only works for so long. If you took a bowl of water, and added some Dawn dish soap and used it and it alone to wash your hands, eventually the water would be cloudy, and even further it would stop cleaning once it absorbs all it can. But keep using that same bowl for 20,000,000 hand washes and id be stunned if the last time you washed your hands was just as clean as the first.
All I can say is that there is a DIRECT relationship between poor maintenance/extended intervals and vehicle's condition. They leak more, they have more problems. Period. I see it every day.
Look at Toyota ATF: WS(world standard). They claim it lifetime fluid. Well of course it will last exactly the lifetime of the transmission. Quite a good marketing ploy. But on my wife's 2011 Corolla at 50K it looked like a fresh pot of foldger's, not ruby red.
We're all fortunate to own toyotas, but they too will break down. So for $60 and 1/2 hour of time, why not protect the $40,000-$60,000 investment?
Rant over...for now
1engineer
Moderator
Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion, but I need to clear up a few misconceptions you have:
1. If you want someone to blame for fastener location and component installation then blame the customer, not the engineer! Engineers have to make what is initially conceived and sold, work. Customers want "X" so engineers make it work and that means doing crazy crap to make it work. Engineers didn't initially design the vehicle, the customer did.
A few other notes to your rant:
And I paid for my school as I went, working as a body man for several years.
I have 27 years experience designing mechanical and hydraulic systems. I know a bit about oils (and fluid dynamics and thermodynamics) and am comfortable with 10K changes in a 4Runner running synthetic.
It's not arrogance, it's confidence. Big difference.
And lastly, there's a reason engineers are not allowed to design pretty things like cars. If we did, they would look like this:
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Oooh, another oil thread. I love these, no matter what forum, they are all the same!
It comes down to: change it when you want to change it, just make sure it's full and change it sometime.
My BMW says to wait for the little lights to go out, then change. Usually happens every 15-16,000 miles. Still alive at 145k, just changed the oil pan gasket, doesn't look too bad in there, but looks far from brand new too. But, what would changing the oil 3-5 times as often have gotten me, besides a lighter wallet? I dunno.
Previous JK wanted oil changes every 8k or so. The T4R now says every 10k. No one has recommended 3 or even 5k oil changes in years.
But, one thing to remember is most automakers are now offering paid services during the warranty period (as is Toyota), so the longer they stretch out those oil changes, the less they have some tech to complete those services.
Also, Toyota is pretty thorough in their manuals on defining the 5k oil change intervals. I live near dirt roads and routinely drive down a few, according to the manual, I should be changing the oil at 5k. I also tow a trailer occasionally, same situation.
Just saying, don't dwell too much on it. People aren't this crazy about their power steering fluid (which will most likely never be changed in the life of the vehicle) or brake fluid (which most manufacturers recommend be flushed every 2 years).
It comes down to: change it when you want to change it, just make sure it's full and change it sometime.
My BMW says to wait for the little lights to go out, then change. Usually happens every 15-16,000 miles. Still alive at 145k, just changed the oil pan gasket, doesn't look too bad in there, but looks far from brand new too. But, what would changing the oil 3-5 times as often have gotten me, besides a lighter wallet? I dunno.
Previous JK wanted oil changes every 8k or so. The T4R now says every 10k. No one has recommended 3 or even 5k oil changes in years.
But, one thing to remember is most automakers are now offering paid services during the warranty period (as is Toyota), so the longer they stretch out those oil changes, the less they have some tech to complete those services.
Also, Toyota is pretty thorough in their manuals on defining the 5k oil change intervals. I live near dirt roads and routinely drive down a few, according to the manual, I should be changing the oil at 5k. I also tow a trailer occasionally, same situation.
Just saying, don't dwell too much on it. People aren't this crazy about their power steering fluid (which will most likely never be changed in the life of the vehicle) or brake fluid (which most manufacturers recommend be flushed every 2 years).
Beaumont67
New member
My rule of thumb - buy premium oil & filter, and extended oil changes are easily achieved, in older/higher mileage vehicles.
^^ GREAT INFO kball, this week I ordered WIX 51516XP from RockAuto ($6.92 + shipping US$)
I understand Amsoil Synthetic Oil filters are currently manufactured by WIX / premium filter, not their silver or gold series.
Corresponding Amsoil #EA034 (oversize) is WIX Platinum #5156XP.
- just bought my 2000 4Runner SR5 this year, and dealer did the last oil change
- I run WIX Platinum Oil Filters, in all our vehicles now
- on wife's 2008 RAV4 Limited V6, I use Pennzoil Platinum with Wix XP filter
- after 8-10,000 Km, synthetic oil (from Natural Gas base stock) is still half of its honey color
- on my Gen3 T4R, will be using Amsoil 5W-30 and a synthetic media WIX over-sized XP oil filter
[Cut Open] NEW NAPA Platinum 41515 | Engine Oil Filters | Bob Is The Oil Guy
WIX XP filters provide optimum protection for the increased demands on today’s vehicles,” said Donald Chilton, North American product development manager at WIX Filters. “Heavy loads, towing, high-idling city driving and severe driving conditions are no match for the enhanced durability of XP.”
XP, the third oil filter line manufactured by WIX, is available through independent auto parts dealers and warehouse distributors. According to Chilton, XP filters are ideal for vehicles subject to:
• Towing trailers, boats and heavy equipment;
• High idling conditions in stop-and-go city driving; and
• Harsh driving environments, such as dusty and muddy roads and extremely high temperatures.
“Avid automotive enthusiasts and do-it-yourself consumers want the best performance for their vehicles, but even the most devoted enthusiasts are unsure of the ideal filter to choose for synthetic motor oils,” Chilton said. “Our XP line eliminates any confusion and continues the WIX commitment to offer products that align with the demands of today’s vehicles.”
Premium oil filters such as XP provide several benefits, including:
• Wire-backed, fully synthetic media that traps more dirt, dust and grime; and
• Greater resistance to hardening and cracking due to silicone anti-drain-back valve.
“Oil is the life-blood of an engine, which means the oil filter should never be taken for granted, especially in harsh environments,” Chilton said. “The small price maintenance teams must pay for premium filters is well worth the cost when you consider the benefit and components of premium products.”
XP Product Description https://www.amazon.com/WIX-Filters-51516XP-Spin-Filter/dp/B00C5TBXY6
Wix XP Oil Filters use synthetic media and provide robust engine protection when using synthetic motor oil for extreme driving conditions such as towing, extreme idle time, lower gear mountainous climbs, long periods at highway speeds and extreme cold throughout the OE manufacturer's recommended oil and filter change interval. A specifically formulated HNBR gasket provides an excellent seal during extreme cold engine starts and resist hardening under elevated oil temperatures. For spin-ons, Wix XP silicone anti-drain back valves protect against dry starts past the traditional filter change interval. Wix XP Oil Filter Laboratory Test Performance per ISO-4548-12: 32 grams dirt* - up to 100% more than Wix - 99% efficient at 35 microns** (Based on *51515XP - **51356XP, 57060XP)
^^ GREAT INFO kball, this week I ordered WIX 51516XP from RockAuto ($6.92 + shipping US$)
I understand Amsoil Synthetic Oil filters are currently manufactured by WIX / premium filter, not their silver or gold series.
Corresponding Amsoil #EA034 (oversize) is WIX Platinum #5156XP.
- just bought my 2000 4Runner SR5 this year, and dealer did the last oil change
- I run WIX Platinum Oil Filters, in all our vehicles now
- on wife's 2008 RAV4 Limited V6, I use Pennzoil Platinum with Wix XP filter
- after 8-10,000 Km, synthetic oil (from Natural Gas base stock) is still half of its honey color
- on my Gen3 T4R, will be using Amsoil 5W-30 and a synthetic media WIX over-sized XP oil filter
[Cut Open] NEW NAPA Platinum 41515 | Engine Oil Filters | Bob Is The Oil Guy
WIX XP filters provide optimum protection for the increased demands on today’s vehicles,” said Donald Chilton, North American product development manager at WIX Filters. “Heavy loads, towing, high-idling city driving and severe driving conditions are no match for the enhanced durability of XP.”
XP, the third oil filter line manufactured by WIX, is available through independent auto parts dealers and warehouse distributors. According to Chilton, XP filters are ideal for vehicles subject to:
• Towing trailers, boats and heavy equipment;
• High idling conditions in stop-and-go city driving; and
• Harsh driving environments, such as dusty and muddy roads and extremely high temperatures.
“Avid automotive enthusiasts and do-it-yourself consumers want the best performance for their vehicles, but even the most devoted enthusiasts are unsure of the ideal filter to choose for synthetic motor oils,” Chilton said. “Our XP line eliminates any confusion and continues the WIX commitment to offer products that align with the demands of today’s vehicles.”
Premium oil filters such as XP provide several benefits, including:
• Wire-backed, fully synthetic media that traps more dirt, dust and grime; and
• Greater resistance to hardening and cracking due to silicone anti-drain-back valve.
“Oil is the life-blood of an engine, which means the oil filter should never be taken for granted, especially in harsh environments,” Chilton said. “The small price maintenance teams must pay for premium filters is well worth the cost when you consider the benefit and components of premium products.”
XP Product Description https://www.amazon.com/WIX-Filters-51516XP-Spin-Filter/dp/B00C5TBXY6
Wix XP Oil Filters use synthetic media and provide robust engine protection when using synthetic motor oil for extreme driving conditions such as towing, extreme idle time, lower gear mountainous climbs, long periods at highway speeds and extreme cold throughout the OE manufacturer's recommended oil and filter change interval. A specifically formulated HNBR gasket provides an excellent seal during extreme cold engine starts and resist hardening under elevated oil temperatures. For spin-ons, Wix XP silicone anti-drain back valves protect against dry starts past the traditional filter change interval. Wix XP Oil Filter Laboratory Test Performance per ISO-4548-12: 32 grams dirt* - up to 100% more than Wix - 99% efficient at 35 microns** (Based on *51515XP - **51356XP, 57060XP)
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According to your vehicle manufacturer, it does.
DoItYourself
New member
Your A\F can only clean so much outside air. The smallest of dirt particals do pennetrate the filter media material.
Just my 2 cents. I raced a Dirt Late Model for a few years and changed the air filter every weekend and changed the oil about every 80 laps. It was dirty from the dirt I guess. Only way I can explain it. So I change my oil in the everyday driver every 5k.
Just my 2 cents. I raced a Dirt Late Model for a few years and changed the air filter every weekend and changed the oil about every 80 laps. It was dirty from the dirt I guess. Only way I can explain it. So I change my oil in the everyday driver every 5k.
philsey
New member
If your engine had enough air filtration to remove ALL air particulate, it would require 3 stages of filtration and rob 20 hp to draw in air. Diminishing Return.
.... and, you'd have 3 air filters to change every 30 days. Engine engineers know what they're doing.
jfry008
New member
I agree with pDubs. Engine oil changes aren't mentioned in the 4th gen maintenance manual for any severe conditions, much less dirt roads.
Only x-fer case and diff oil if towing.
