OK, someone 'splain this to me

[philsey]

Many of us lament the lack of a V8 in our 4Rs. Or, other enhanced-performance powerplants in various (Toyota) models. Lexus at least has a few, albeit big bucks models.

And, it seems, we place the blame at the feet of the NHTSA and the CAFE standards.

I mean Audi has high performance offerings, as does MB, and Nissan, and Honda, and Ford, and Porsche, and, and .... even Cadillac. (I just read this: "Facelifted 2019 Cadillac CT6 Gets New V-Sport With 550hp Twin-Turbo V8")

And many-if-not-all these models sell in lower volume, so it's not a ROI thing.

So why? When so many manufacturers see a business return (ala Cadillac), why doesn't Toyota offer anything? Is it just corporate butt-pucker? Stay out of competition with Lexus? What?

Inquiring minds ...

 

[LawnDart]

Outside of the Supra, or Lexus ISF, has toyota ever made performance enthusiast vehicles?

 

[e60ral]

no competition, no need to spend the money

 

[philsey]

Moved by OP. Posted in wrong forum.

 

[Jetboy]

How many 150k mile Audis do you see out there?

My coworker just gave her mid 2000's BMW 335xi to her mechanic with about 100k miles because it wasn't worth fixing anymore.

If you want that type of vehicle, there are plenty of options.

Toyota rarely ever goes after the small sliver of sales in the performance model category. They don't have to and it would tarnish the image of reliability in many cases.

 

[1jzgte]

no competition, no need to spend the money

that's the same reason why the 4runner has basically remained unchanged since 4th gen

 

[Angelo]

They don't have to and it would tarnish the image of reliability in many cases.

I was thinking about this the other day as I pondered wight reduction, power, and why I insist on driving a barely-18-mpg vehicle. I think Jetboy has it right- the only thing keeping many of us out of the JK / JKU world is the Toyota reliability. We have all talked about the difficulty of modifications (relatively), the "lack of power", etc. but when it comes right down to it if you popped the "underpowered" V6 and "outdated" 5-speed out of this truck, no one would keep buying / driving them.

No need to change anything when you sell most if not all of the product you make in a year, every year, and the limited edition trim you make sells for above MSRP two years and 30k+ miles used.

Oh, and I routinely remember why I drive it when I'm navigating back country roads in the dark in inclement weather. Are there other trucks that could do it? Sure. Are there other trucks that could do it year in and year out with such reliability? ...No.

 

[Ryance39]

How many 150k mile Audis do you see out there?

My coworker just gave her mid 2000's BMW 335xi to her mechanic with about 100k miles because it wasn't worth fixing anymore.

If you want that type of vehicle, there are plenty of options.

Toyota rarely ever goes after the small sliver of sales in the performance model category. They don't have to and it would tarnish the image of reliability in many cases.

"Would tarnish the image of reliability"...?

They are plenty of V8's out there that are as reliable if not more than the v6 found 4runners.

If I had to speculate as to why Toyota doesn't put v8's in 4runners is because very few people buy a 4runner to tow heavy loads. That is not what they are made for.

They also don't do it because of who the majority buyers of 4runner are. I would bet 70% of people who buy a 4runner new off the lot couldn't tell you what size engine is in their new car. They don't care. Sure, it's odd they don't option a v8, but doing that would increase the costs of production and require re-engineering. If it's not broke don't fix it.

 

[alico268]

I know in the past the level-headed engineers on this forum would always explain that Toyota is having to conform/prepare to the CAFE standards and so forth, but I just don't buy it. Though there is an industry shift towards smaller displacement engines, I see plenty of examples of auto makers not seeming to prepare for CAFE. Dodge basically Hemifies every model they make and nothing in their stable looks to be a fleet efficiency champ to serve as an offset. On the other hand, Toyota's fleet has to be one of the most efficient outside of Honda and the only thing they can muster for performance enthusiasts, is stitching 'TRD' in your headrests.

Many say Toyota doesn't do a V8 in the 4R because of the production costs and sales wouldn't be that high. My counter argument would be that some ding dong thought the 4 cylinder was worth doing in the 5th gen before promptly being stripped out in its first year of production. And though 70% of people might not know what engine is underneath their hood, I believe the vast majority of people know what power feels like when they press the accelerator (and I'm not a V6 4R hater by any means).

I'm probably in the minority here, but I'm glad that Toyota hasn't done a bunch of band-aid approaches like turbos and cylinder deactivation to look good on EPA test papers but not deliver in the real world. Hopefully Toyota will maintain their reputation for unbeatable transportation appliances, while still injecting a little more passion and enjoyment in the future. And who knows, maybe the new TNGA stuff will do just that.

I'm pretty excited to see this, even though it's basically just a BMW Z4:

 

[djhuff7]

As a devils advocate here, I just finished a work trip where I rented an Ecoboost Expedition. That little V6 had some serious snap, especially right off the line. Now the throttle mapping was VERY aggressive, and if you really laid into it, was not much different than say, 1/2 way laying into it. Much different than our 4Rs that require you to step on it to get the power.

All this, while giving me 16.5mpg. I did pop the hood just to see, and the driver's side turbo was covered in oil residue at 35k miles. THAT is why Toyota does not do this. The power is nice, but our 4Rs will go 200k plus without touching the engine, not sure these will routinely make it much past 100 before you have to dig into it for something. Especially with the throttle mapping they are using, you are pretty much always in the boost when under any kind of acceleration.

 

[LandCruiser]

Many of us lament the lack of a V8 in our 4Rs. Or, other enhanced-performance powerplants in various (Toyota) models. Lexus at least has a few, albeit big bucks models.

And, it seems, we place the blame at the feet of the NHTSA and the CAFE standards.

I mean Audi has high performance offerings, as does MB, and Nissan, and Honda, and Ford, and Porsche, and, and .... even Cadillac. (I just read this: "
Facelifted 2019 Cadillac CT6 Gets New V-Sport With 550hp Twin-Turbo V8")

And many-if-not-all these models sell in lower volume, so it's not a ROI thing.

So why? When so many manufacturers see a business return (ala Cadillac), why doesn't Toyota offer anything? Is it just corporate butt-pucker? Stay out of competition with Lexus? What?

Inquiring minds ...

1. Toyota hates its customers
2. Toyota is an "international" company, and big bad petrol v8's are evil outside of the US where they cause carbon warming change, the science is settled
3. Toyota has a hands off attitude for its 4x4s, dragging models out for decades and not making changes if they sell, and killing successful models like the FJC
4. Toyota hates its customers
5. Toyota bet on the wrong guy in the last election and also bet that Americans give a damn about Priuses and tiny ass Japanese city cars
6. Toyota hates you

 

[LandCruiser]

Outside of the Supra, or Lexus ISF, has toyota ever made performance enthusiast vehicles?

Most Supra variants couldn't outrun a modern Civic, despite costing a fortune, and the ISF was a pet project for the chairman so he could have something his company made to drive to work.

Also, while I'm on the subject of bashing Toyota.

The LC 70 series is a great vehicle.

I keep hearing youtubers and other dorks telling me "oh, it sucks, the 200 series or Limited 4Runner is better."

I owned one. It's a tank. It's what a Land Cruiser is supposed to be. I would immediately buy one at MSRP if it came on sale in the US (wagon or Troupie). I'd even get one with a gas engine.

 

[Muzzle of Bees]

There has to be a reason to buy anything. Differentiation is good, but for me product quality is very important. Fancy HP numbers, straight line times and other marketing crap mean nothing to me.

 

[CO-Cygnus]

I did pop the hood just to see, and the driver's side turbo was covered in oil residue at 35k miles. THAT is why Toyota does not do this.

Sorry, but I can't subscribe to this line of thinking. "Ford can't make a reliable X, therefore Toyota should avoid." Since when has Ford been a paragon of reliability?

We are getting to the point where modern 2.0L twin-scroll in line 4s are producing 300 HP and near equal measures of torque with broad, flat plateaus instead of curves. A smaller displacement turbo-6 would be a great fit for the 4Runner.

Surely Toyota can can make a more reliable turbocharged engine. However, I'm mentally prepared to see a 5 year old Camry engine dropped in to what's supposed to be a truck.

 

[djhuff7]

Sorry, but I can't subscribe to this line of thinking. "Ford can't make a reliable X, therefore Toyota should avoid." Since when has Ford been a paragon of reliability?

The 5.8 was pretty bulletproof, so was the 5.4. Turbos do not have the longevity that we expect and demand with our Toyotas. Those bearings will wear out, and it'll happen before many of us are ready to be spending that kind of money on repairs. This may not matter to the original owner, but it will affect resale values negatively, another thing that we like to pride in our Toyotas.

Not saying it can't be done, but there are hurdles to overcome.

 

[OBX4Runner2006]

Outside of the Supra, or Lexus ISF, has toyota ever made performance enthusiast vehicles?

Last time I was at the dealer they had a Toyota 86. The dealer was displaying it as a performance car. I don't know.

 

[LandCruiser]

Last time I was at the dealer they had a Toyota 86. The dealer was displaying it as a performance car. I don't know.

It's a Subaru, with legendary Subaru rattles, no turbo, no AWD, narrow ass bicycle tires, that would have trouble outrunning a GM SUV from a dead stop.

 

[Ron4RNevada]

Well for a lot of us this is how we like it.

Most of us in the boonies wouldn't have it any other way.
I love mine just the way it is.

In fact a lot of the infotainment crap on my truck I don't even use.

All of the northern Nevada dealers stock about 95% SR5s. They don't even bother with Limiteds, Trail Editions, TRDs and all the latest variants.

If someone really wants a v8, a 6 or 8 speed or a bunch of extra speakers and cup holders they can go just a few blocks down Kietzke Lane and drop into Lexus.

A few more miles to the south and you can buy a Mercedes, BMW or a Porsche.

However, You will never find a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW or Porsche off-road.

If my daughter wasn't so upside-down in her BMW X5 she would probably unload it for a T4R SR5 in a flash. It goes into the shop a lot and ALWAYS costs her a fortune.

NORTHERN NEVADA IS SR5 and WRANGLER COUNTRY!

 

[cloud]

Most of us in the boonies wouldn't have it any other way.
I love mine just the way it is.

In fact a lot of the infotainment crap on my truck I don't even use.

All of the northern Nevada dealers stock about 95% SR5s. They don't even bother with Limiteds, Trail Editions, TRDs and all the latest variants.

If someone really wants a v8, a 6 or 8 speed or a bunch of extra speakers and cup holders they can go just a few blocks down Kietzke Lane and drop into Lexus.

A few more miles to the south and you can buy a Mercedes, BMW or a Porsche.

However, You will never find a Lexus, Mercedes, BMW or Porsche off-road.

If my daughter wasn't so upside-down in her BMW X5 she would probably unload it for a T4R SR5 in a flash. It goes into the shop a lot and ALWAYS costs her a fortune.

NORTHERN NEVADA IS SR5 and WRANGLER COUNTRY!

Yeah buddy I swapped my double din navi crap for a Kenwood with Bluetooth and the DVD unit is the future site of an amp. However I love my center differential and heated leather seats. The ****ing automatic bullshit can **** right off though. Seat adjusts way too slow!

All that said though, I'll fight you too keep those two cylinders behind my pedal. Just deleted the hcf and I got.... Happy when I drove it in town and was getting 16+mpg as apposed to~14. I love my sightly lower power than the v-6 option 03 V8.

I'm a numbers guy, trucks get four doors and 8 cylinders. Cars get two doors and six cylinders. Any other combination is an abomination in the eyes the petroleum Gods

 

[gm350reratliff]

As a devils advocate here, I just finished a work trip where I rented an Ecoboost Expedition. That little V6 had some serious snap, especially right off the line. Now the throttle mapping was VERY aggressive, and if you really laid into it, was not much different than say, 1/2 way laying into it. Much different than our 4Rs that require you to step on it to get the power.

All this, while giving me 16.5mpg. I did pop the hood just to see, and the driver's side turbo was covered in oil residue at 35k miles. THAT is why Toyota does not do this. The power is nice, but our 4Rs will go 200k plus without touching the engine, not sure these will routinely make it much past 100 before you have to dig into it for something. Especially with the throttle mapping they are using, you are pretty much always in the boost when under any kind of acceleration.

The 5.8 was pretty bulletproof, so was the 5.4. Turbos do not have the longevity that we expect and demand with our Toyotas. Those bearings will wear out, and it'll happen before many of us are ready to be spending that kind of money on repairs. This may not matter to the original owner, but it will affect resale values negatively, another thing that we like to pride in our Toyotas.

Not saying it can't be done, but there are hurdles to overcome.

As a former ecoboost f150 owner, I can say that when the truck was new and everything was working good, that truck was fun to drive and got decent MPG. After several trips to the dealer service center, a couple ECM reflashes, new spark plugs every 20k (kept cracking and sometimes blowing the ceramic right off), new coil packs, new intercooler, the decent MPG was gone and the snappy throttle response was also gone. By 45k miles the f150 had developed a nasty bottom end knock and a couple electrical glitches and that's when I threw in the towel. I just couldn't depend on the truck any longer and ford was dragging their feet to fix anything on it.

I've also had the opportunity to drive a couple 5.4L f150s for work but I wouldn't call them bulletproof. We had spark plug issues, coil pack problems, MAF issues, and finally cam phaser issues, not to mention they were absolutely gutless, worse than the 4.0 in the 5th gen.