Questions about Some Minor Mods

[ade678]

Hi All,

I’m new to this forum and am writing for advice/opinions about some minor modifications I’d like to make to my 2106 TE with KDDS. (I’ve already gotten some great help here and here).

This is my first 4Runner (graduated from several Subarus) and I’ve already driven the beast around the Utah backcountry, up through the British Columbia interior, and into the Yukon tundra. After several minor epic self-recoveries — who knew that “clay” isn’t the same thing as “mud”???— I’ve decided to beef up the rig a bit. (I already travel with basic gear, including recovery straps, sand tracks, come-along, etc.)

I’d like to keep the modifications minor (e.g. no lift) since I do ~20,000 miles/year of highway driving, and the truck also functions as the daily driver for wife and newborn (yes, they come with me on these adventures!)

OK…here are my questions...Many thanks in advance for your help and time!

(1) I plan to buy an undercover hidden winch mount, and will probably install something like a Smittybuilt X20 with synthetic line (I like the fully wireless Warn Zeon, especially since I wouldn't have to pop the hood whoever I want to get to the clutch, but wow it’s expensive!). I like the mount offered by HMWS, but have heard good things about Pelfreybilt as well. Any opinions?

(2) If I go with HMWS, I can add two recovery points for an extra $190+powder coating (pictured here). Any thoughts about whether this is necessary? Won't the factory tow points do just fine (assuming I can get to them)? I suppose they look nice, but it's two more holes cut into the front valence, which means more exposure to the elements...thoughts?

(3) The total additional weight of mount+winch is ~125 lbs. According to several knowledgable forum members, I can expect about 1/4” of front-end compression.

My goal is to keep the factory rake as close to stock as possible (and again, I don’t want a lift). Any suggestions about how best to compensate for the sag?

The cheap solutions seems to be a set of Bilstein 5100s up front. I’ve learned that if they’re set to the first notch I might expect something close but not quite exact…maybe +1/2”…any thoughts or additional suggestions? The Toytec BOSS coilovers are sexy, but pricey!!! Maybe start with the 5100's and wait a few years to get a better idea of what I need?

(4) More on shocks: I’ve also heard that a set of Bilstein 6112’s might be good. Anyone have experience with these on a 4Runner with little to no lift?

(5) Anyone have any experience installing 5100s or equivalent on a 4Runner with KDSS? (A quick reading of the forum confirms that at the very least it's a hassle).

(6) I often tow a ~2000 lb off-road teardrop behind me, and I was planning to add a set of TTORSEQ Timbren Rear Suspension cushions to pick up the extra tongue weight, but maybe a full set of 5100’s (or equivalent?) front and back would be better?

(7) At some point I'll add a bit of under armor (I like the 3/16" front/engine skid plates offered by SchrockWorks), which adds another 42lbs...is this potentially more front end sag? (And does anyone have some other preferred skid plate manufacturer?)

(8) If I’m committed to beefing up the suspension, should I reconsider a small lift? Wouldn’t it lower mpg for my long highway trips (and introduce other mechanical complications)?

(9) Any additional words of wisdom to a 4Runner newbie looking to get lost in the backcountry (I’ve spent plenty of time there, just never with my own rig)

Thanks again for your help and advice!

ade678

 

[1engineer]

Short answer: 5100's on front set to first notch. Airbags for the rear. Not hard at all with KDSS. You are reading OPINIONS instead of fact. That will do you for under $500. Yes, lift, winch and anything else you add will hurt your mpg

 

[(none)]

Hi All,

I’m new to this forum and am writing for advice/opinions about some minor modifications I’d like to make to my 2106 TE with KDDS. (I’ve already gotten some great help here and here).

This is my first 4Runner (graduated from several Subarus) and I’ve already driven the beast around the Utah backcountry, up through the British Columbia interior, and into the Yukon tundra. After several minor epic self-recoveries — who knew that “clay” isn’t the same thing as “mud”???— I’ve decided to beef up the rig a bit. (I already travel with basic gear, including recovery straps, sand tracks, come-along, etc.)

I’d like to keep the modifications minor (e.g. no lift) since I do ~20,000 miles/year of highway driving, and the truck also functions as the daily driver for wife and newborn (yes, they come with me on these adventures!)

OK…here are my questions...Many thanks in advance for your help and time!

(1) I plan to buy an undercover hidden winch mount, and will probably install something like a Smittybuilt X20 with synthetic line (I like the fully wireless Warn Zeon, especially since I wouldn't have to pop the hood whoever I want to get to the clutch, but wow it’s expensive!). I like the mount offered by HMWS, but have heard good things about Pelfreybilt as well. Any opinions?

(2) If I go with HMWS, I can add two recovery points for an extra $190+powder coating (pictured here). Any thoughts about whether this is necessary? Won't the factory tow points do just fine (assuming I can get to them)? I suppose they look nice, but it's two more holes cut into the front valence, which means more exposure to the elements...thoughts?

(3) The total additional weight of mount+winch is ~125 lbs. According to several knowledgable forum members, I can expect about 1/4” of front-end compression.

My goal is to keep the factory rake as close to stock as possible (and again, I don’t want a lift). Any suggestions about how best to compensate for the sag?

The cheap solutions seems to be a set of Bilstein 5100s up front. I’ve learned that if they’re set to the first notch I might expect something close but not quite exact…maybe +1/2”…any thoughts or additional suggestions? The Toytec BOSS coilovers are sexy, but pricey!!! Maybe start with the 5100's and wait a few years to get a better idea of what I need?

(4) More on shocks: I’ve also heard that a set of Bilstein 6112’s might be good. Anyone have experience with these on a 4Runner with little to no lift?

(5) Anyone have any experience installing 5100s or equivalent on a 4Runner with KDSS? (A quick reading of the forum confirms that at the very least it's a hassle).

(6) I often tow a ~2000 lb off-road teardrop behind me, and I was planning to add a set of TTORSEQ Timbren Rear Suspension cushions to pick up the extra tongue weight, but maybe a full set of 5100’s (or equivalent?) front and back would be better?

(7) At some point I'll add a bit of under armor (I like the 3/16" front/engine skid plates offered by SchrockWorks), which adds another 42lbs...is this potentially more front end sag? (And does anyone have some other preferred skid plate manufacturer?)

(8) If I’m committed to beefing up the suspension, should I reconsider a small lift? Wouldn’t it lower mpg for my long highway trips (and introduce other mechanical complications)?

(9) Any additional words of wisdom to a 4Runner newbie looking to get lost in the backcountry (I’ve spent plenty of time there, just never with my own rig)

Thanks again for your help and advice!

ade678

1&2: If you remove the cover under the hood which covers that huge area between the core support and the front bumper, you should easily be able to reach your arm down there to reach the winch. It may be difficult on some terrain, and yes you'll still have to open your hood, but it's an option.

3: Install everything then see how you feel about it. You could go with a small spacer or to the 6112s like you mention. You can also get heavier springs which should fit on the stock shocks. How well they will ride? I dunno.

5: it's been done, just a few extra steps involved.

6: I'd suggest airlift airbags added to the rear springs. That's the route I went and it's been perfect. Honestly though, a 2000lb trailer is only going to have 200-250lb tongue weight at most, it really won't effect your stock setup. Try it and see how it feels before you are set on upgrades for problems which may not exist.

7:try it and see. If you throw 50lbs of stuff in the back seat, do you really notice it?

8: Everything negatively effects fuel mileage. Everything. Nothing will help you gain mileage, you'll never get any better mileage than you did when you were completely stock. Just the way it is. How much it effects your mileage? All depends on how you drive.

Looks like you've started off right, driving it stock and seeing how it does. You're on the right road. Good luck!

 

[ade678]

3: Install everything then see how you feel about it. You could go with a small spacer or to the 6112s like you mention. You can also get heavier springs which should fit on the stock shocks. How well they will ride? I dunno.

6: I'd suggest airlift airbags added to the rear springs. That's the route I went and it's been perfect. Honestly though, a 2000lb trailer is only going to have 200-250lb tongue weight at most, it really won't effect your stock setup. Try it and see how it feels before you are set on upgrades for problems which may not exist.

Thanks for the advice!

3. Any suggestions for heavier springs? (Also, I assume this will make for a stiffer highway ride, yes?)

6. I'm more concerned with tongue weight when I town through gnarly forest service roads.... In any case, several people have recommended the airbags, but still they make me a bit nervous. First, they involve some cutting, but even more worrisome is the thought that they might fail/break/leak when I'm hundreds of miles from help.

Thoughts??

 

[philsey]

Short answer: 5100's on front set to first notch. Airbags for the rear. Not hard at all with KDSS. You are reading OPINIONS instead of fact. That will do you for under $500. Yes, lift, winch and anything else you add will hurt your mpg

This. Boom. Stop.

 

[ade678]

I dunno...my first mod was a stealth Gobi rack, which has absolutely exceeded my expectations! I'd sleep up there if my wife would let me!

 

[1engineer]

Thanks for the advice!

3. Any suggestions for heavier springs? (Also, I assume this will make for a stiffer highway ride, yes?)

6. I'm more concerned with tongue weight when I town through gnarly forest service roads.... In any case, several people have recommended the airbags, but still they make me a bit nervous. First, they involve some cutting, but even more worrisome is the thought that they might fail/break/leak when I'm hundreds of miles from help.

Thoughts??

Stop. There is no cutting for airbags as referenced http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/92013-antmans-thread.html go to the bottom of the page and he tows all the time. They won't fail, break or leak any more than a normal spring would. Don't make this more complicated than it is.

You don't have to install a compressor like he did. Just use the one at home or buy one of those cheap 12 v ones to throw in the back.

I hope you are not getting all your misinformation on this forum.

 

[JSparky]

Excellent initial post, that is all.

 

[bofa]

I dunno...my first mod was a stealth Gobi rack, which has absolutely exceeded my expectations! I'd sleep up there if my wife would let me!

Keep buying mods and she just might...

 

[Toffees]

Keep buying mods and she just might...

^^ Solid fact, not just an opinion

 

[ade678]

There is no cutting for airbags as referenced http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/92013-antmans-thread.html
I hope you are not getting all your misinformation on this forum.

Thanks for the help (and concern!) The forum has provided nothing but excellent advice (and fun physics debate; see JetBoys post #53 here) so far.

According to etrailer's installation video (go to 04:14) for the Firestone Coil-Rite Air Helper Springs , I'd need to cut off the "four convoluted sections of the top mount" (some kind of rubber stopper that originally sat within the coil). Then there's a bit of air line installation.

My principal concerns (in order of most important to least):

(1) The system is now more complex, which means more chance of failure (I'm nowhere near the auto guru that Antman is), so a fix in the field might be difficult. On the other hand, can't get much simpler that a set of 2 rubber TTORSEQ stoppers, and, in principle, the ride when uncompressed is identical to factory.

(2) The system needs to be constantly monitored (e.g., I understand that I'd need to maintain a constant ~5psi during daily driving).

(3) I've just made an irreversible mod (although I suppose I could buy new top mounts if I was unhappy with the airbags).

Thoughts???

 

[philsey]

Thanks for the help (and concern!) The forum has provided nothing but excellent advice (and fun physics debate; see JetBoys post #53 here) so far.

According to etrailer's installation video (go to 04:14) for the Firestone Coil-Rite Air Helper Springs , I'd need to cut off the "four convoluted sections of the top mount" (some kind of rubber stopper that originally sat within the coil). Then there's a bit of air line installation.

My principal concerns (in order of most important to least):

(1) The system is now more complex, which means more chance of failure (I'm nowhere near the auto guru that Antman is), so a fix in the field might be difficult. On the other hand, can't get much simpler that a set of 2 rubber TTORSEQ stoppers, and, in principle, the ride when uncompressed is identical to factory.

(2) The system needs to be constantly monitored (e.g., I understand that I'd need to maintain a constant ~5psi during daily driving).

(3) I've just made an irreversible mod (although I suppose I could buy new top mounts if I was unhappy with the airbags).

Thoughts???

We should page [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] here, as he's installed/maintained airbags for some time now, tows 3000# frequently, and has been a strong proponent.

As to a failure, I can't recall anyone on here reporting one, but anything's possible. And the install? Have Firestone do it ... I'd assume it would carry a warranty.

Me? I'd sure use bags for occasional towing before I'd run HD springs all the time.

 

[Antman]

We should page [MENTION=65614]Antman[/MENTION] here, as he's installed/maintained airbags for some time now, tows 3000# frequently, and has been a strong proponent.

As to a failure, I can't recall anyone on here reporting one, but anything's possible. And the install? Have Firestone do it ... I'd assume it would carry a warranty.

Me? I'd sure use bags for occasional towing before I'd run HD springs all the time.

Hello there, lol...

Here's the deal- as I see it. Yes, you must cut the bumpstops within the springs to make room for the bags. There are also bumpstops outside the spring that will prevent your axle from travelling to far up if the bags would fail.

The only issue I have had with the Airlifts is with the air line under the bag rubbing through right at the bags nipple. This is mostly because I have SAW (longer) springs and when the suspension fully flexes offroad the rubber donut that the bag sits on is basically sitting on the bottom spring perch all alone and scared with the airline through the middle. Then, it moves around (I guess 'cause it's scared, lol) and when the bag comes back in contact with it, the line is sometimes off-center in the donut hole and eventually rubs through. This is why Airlift will recommend longer bags if you have longer springs. It'll keep the bag in contact with the donut.

So...I have run the bags completely empty- zero air pressure- for months due to this because I didn't want to get under the truck and fiddle with everything in the winter. After I cut about an inch off the line and reattach it with a new ziptie, viola- no leaks and good as new- make sure you loop some extra hose into your system for easy repairs should this happen.

These bags are tough and inexpensive. I've said it a hundred times on here- If you tow or haul it'll be the best $100 you spend on your truck.

That's all I got.

 

[ade678]

Back to the Front

Hi Everyone,

One of the senior members here was kind enough to reply to a message I sent asking about the spring/shock mods I'd like to make in order to keep my rig as close to factory rake as possible (after I add a hidden winch mount, winch, and skid plate).

The choice seems to be between a set of Bilstein 5100's and 6112s. I'd welcome anyone's opinions/thoughts/experiences.

Briefly: my understanding is that a set of 5100s are cheaper and use the factory springs, whereas the 6112's are more expensive but have their own coilovers (although the 6112's also use some factory parts, depending on the configuration ordered!)...Finally, I'm going to ask my local mechanic to install whatever I go with, so then there's a bit of labor cost (I assume more for the 5100's since they'll require more assembly. Actually, any such assembly is probably further complicated by the KDSS)...

...Am I now "only" a few hundred $$$ shy of a set of plug and play ToyTec Boss Coilovers (600lbs or 650lbs?)?

OK...whew...so, then, which front suspension option would you recommend given that I
(a) drive 20-25,000 mi/yr on highways
(b) often wander into the isolated backcountry
(c) wish to keep as close to stock height/rake/feel as possible.

Thanks!