Rocking at highway speed

[eanema]

Hi Guys,
Almost a year ago I upgraded my suspension. I used to have stock springs/shocks with a 3" spacer lift but I bought the OME suspension kit from ToyTecLifts.com (excellent customer service BTW) I bought a package with:
OME-881 Front coils
OME-90004 Front shocks
OME-890 Rear coils
OME-60073 Rear shocks

My 4Runner is basically stock, besides some nice tires (same size as factory) and a 3" lift, I don't have any after market bumpers or anything installed.

Now, I have noticed that when the vehicle is loaded down it will sway fairly significantly at highway speeds. I recently took 4 adults, 2 canoes and all our gear out for a weekend and had some serious body roll on the highway. I did have a broken front sway bar end link but that has been repair and the thing still rocks back and forth lick a teater-totter. When the vehicle is empty is still rolls around a bit but it's not as noticeable as when there is a load.

Main question:
has any one had any problems with their lift to cause this kind of vomit-inducing rock 'n rolling? I feel like the suspension is the only thing that has changed (on purpose at least) since last year when I hadn't noticed this problem.

I am considering ordering different front shocks to fix this problem. Does anyone have any comments about this lift? Or really any reason to believe that the shocks are my problem? Were planning a cross country road trip in a month or so so I'm anxious to get this fixed... otherwise the wife may want to take her car instead!

Thanks for the help!

 

[CRB Racing]

Check your rear control arm bushings. Mine did what you're describing when my
lower control arm bushing were shot.

 

[tS_kStin]

Mine had a rock and it was due to the sidewall of my tires being wore out and weak. Otherwise I would also look at the bushings all over the rear.

 

[eanema]

Check your rear control arm bushings. Mine did what you're describing when my
lower control arm bushing were shot.

Rear control arm bushings. Hrm... I wanted to do that when I was I'm there but I had to draw the line somewhere. Things were getting expensive before.

So to be clear, you mean the rear bushings on the lower control arm? Or the upper control arm? Or both of them? I would obviously change all of the bushings if I took them out...
[MENTION=120394]tS_kStin[/MENTION] how did you diagnose a tire problem?? That's an expensive replacement...

I'm going to put the thing up on jack stands once I get a moment, hopefully the problem will become obvious... Thanks for the info

 

[tS_kStin]

Rear control arm bushings. Hrm... I wanted to do that when I was I'm there but I had to draw the line somewhere. Things were getting expensive before.

So to be clear, you mean the rear bushings on the lower control arm? Or the upper control arm? Or both of them? I would obviously change all of the bushings if I took them out...

[MENTION=120394]tS_kStin[/MENTION] how did you diagnose a tire problem?? That's an expensive replacement...

I'm going to put the thing up on jack stands once I get a moment, hopefully the problem will become obvious... Thanks for the info

Well luckily for me I was getting close to needing new tires and so I was able to use my parents old tires to replace mine until I got my 33s. But I looked through all my bushings first to make sure it wasn't anything in the suspension. If it isn't anything in the suspension then I'd rotate the tires to see if it happens on the front tires and if it does then maybe try to find a cheap set off Craigslist or something just to test with or see if you can test tires at a tire shop. If it is the tires all you can do it get new ones unfortunately.

 

[eanema]

That's not a bad idea... See if one of the tire shops can loan me a set of tires for a test drive.

I'm under the vehicle right now and remembered that my steering rack is shot ... As far as I knew it was just leaking from the rag joint, and the steering was fine. Maybe that's not the case anymore ... Perhaps I have to deal with the tack issue first?

How exactly do you check the bushings on the control arms? They seem to be pretty well hidden in the metal sleeves ...

 

[CRB Racing]

The lower control arm bushings were cracked when mine swayed. Remove one control arm at a time and look at the rubber bushing. If they are cracked, replace the bushings and recheck if the sway is still there.
I haven't had any swaying like described since I replaced the bushings.

 

[Diezel]

Rear upper and lower control arm bushings. Front and rear sway bar end links and bushings.

 

[Tyler James Inc]

How many miles on your rig? Do you know if the rear link bolts were loosened and re-tightened when the lift was done? The way the bushings are(bonded to the inner and outer sleeves), they should be relaxed at ride height- with the vehicle on the ground. If the bolts weren't loosened to allow the bushings to relax at their new position(your new ride height), it may have caused them to give up their ghost. Or whatever that saying is.
If they haven't been replaced, new Energy Suspension steering rack bushings will also tighten up your front end quite a bit.
I'm gonna sound like a broken record to the active members here, but I can't suggest the panhard correction brackets enough. [MENTION=28464]eimkeith[/MENTION] designed them, had them produced, and the fit and finish is beautiful. What's really great is how they change the handling of your rig, and how they change roll center to virtually eliminate body roll. I can keep my foot steady on the gas around corners, and my 80% tread 315 KO2s will lose traction on dry pavement before anything feels unstable or "tippy".
I'm gonna have to jump on the rear links wagon for your highway speed issue. It makes the most sense to me too.

 

[AssBurns]

I had that same issue loaded with extra weight when I first did my lift too. I also had a panhard drop bracket at the time. A few things I did to help correct the sway was remove the drop bracket and make a lift bracket and increase the pressure in my shocks. This made quite a big difference in handling and ride quality. Look into [MENTION=28464]eimkeith[/MENTION]’s panhard correction kit. Should solve at least some of your issues.
When my bushings were shot I noticed a more floaty feeling in the handling, not necessarily a rocking feeling. Do you notice any difference in your steering when braking or accelerating? If so that is definitely your bushings.


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[eanema]

Hey, thanks for the info! The vehicle has ~385,000km (~240,000 miles) there is a decent amount of highway miles on it. Last fall I did some parts replacement in the front end and some in the back too. In the front:
-Upper and lower ball joints
-Shocks & springs - OME 3" lift kit - replaced 3" spacer lift kit
-Inner & outer tie rod ends
-Energy suspension steering rack bushings
-Energy suspensions tie rod bushings
-1" Diff drop

and in the back:
-Springs and coils
-Sway bar end links

Then a few months ago I noticed the rocking and rolling on the highway, and found a broken front end link. So I replaced them both (and kept the energy suspension bushings) Still feel the rocking.


When you say the the rear link bolts, you mean the bolt on the lower control arm, towards the back of the vehicle? After I was done installing the lift, with the vehicle sitting on the new lift, I loosened both bolts on both lower control arms (4 in total) to make sure they were not seized before I took it in for an alignment.

Right now I have a long road trip planed at the beginning of September so I have about a month to deal with this problem before wifie says were taking her sedan :-(

Right now, my plan, as it stands is to just buy two new lower control arm assemblies because the ones on there are plenty rusted. Replacement OEM control arms cost ~$230 each where new OEM bushings cost ~$90 Canadian pesos. Plus while I'm at it I'll likely replace the eccentric adjustment bolts as well. Total cost is ~$500+ CAD (like $25 US )

I know this might be more expensive than necessary but its an easy job and within my budget... but what are your thoughts on how effective this will be at fixing the rolling issue?

 

[eanema]

[MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION], sorry, I didn't notice your post this morning... I haven't noticed if it rocks during acceleration / braking, but I'll pay attention to that now. How exactly do you increase the pressure in your shocks? I didn't think you could change that... Or do you mean you replaced your shocks with something a bit stiffer?

I may not be describing my issue very well, but this past weekend I was on the highway with a canoe on the roof and a guy pulled up beside me, leaned out the passenger window, and waved his hand like a slithering snake, trying to tell me that I was swerving... I feel like i can almost fix the problem by very slight counter steering.... But I can't.

Anyways, both [MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] & [MENTION=116470]Tyler James Inc[/MENTION] are suggesting the pan hard drop/lift kit. I guess I should try that first. Its cheaper, but that means I need to borrow a welder... Something I've been meaning to do anyways I suppose.

Thanks for the info

 

[eanema]

Now that I think about it, I had the vehicle lifted before. It was a 3" spacer lift. Shouldn't i have noticed this problem then too? The lift height hasn't changed much, just the suspension I guess...

 

[AssBurns]

[MENTION=100681]eanema[/MENTION] Sounds like it could be bushings by the way you are describing it and if there wasn’t an issue prior to your new lift. Does your steering feel tight or is there a lot of slop? Do you have excess body roll when cornering?


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[eanema]

Well, I was under the vehicle the other day, witht he front end in the air, and had the wheel turned from lock to lock. I was shaking on the wheels side to side and I couldn't feel any give/slop. And aparently there was no movement in the wheel, that wasn't pit there on purpose. I feel like the steering is solid.

As for excessive body role when cornering, not really sure. The bumping/swerving I was describing almost/somewhat seems to stop when cornering. If the road is rough then there is a lot more swerving/bouncing but when the highway takes me into a turn the swerving/bouncing seems to slow down.

 

[AssBurns]

It’s not that easy to check the bushings unless they are really shot. If you have that many miles on your vehicle, and if you offroad at all, you probably have worn out bushings. Look to see if your bushings have cracked or chipped rubber.
I noticed if your vehicle steers when you throttle on and off, then it’s probably your rear bushings. If your vehicle steers when you brake, it’s probably your front bushings. If you plan to offroad a lot, you might want to consider getting the Whiteline bushings for your front LCA’s. They are really solid and will last a long time.


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[eanema]

Ya, that's what I was thinking too. Likely time to change them anyways. 99% of my driving is all done on concrete, but I do fairly regularly take it off road. Not wheeling, but driving some pretty shitty trails to get where I'm going.

I think I'll start by replacing the lower control arms with OEM parts and seeing how that changes things. I'll also see if I notice any steering during heavy breaking/acceleration before I start. That's some good info right there: breaking = front bushings, acceleration = rear bushings.

Thanks man!

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[AssBurns]

Your welcome. That’s just my experience. Doesn’t mean that is a true rule of thumb, but it does make sense if you think about how the suspension is setup. Braking takes more toll on the front end, plus the way an IFS control arm is mounted causes the bushings to push and pull. Reverse it for the rear, under acceleration your axle will want to push forward and steer your axle if a bushing is worn out.


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[Scramble]

Do you know if the rear link bolts were loosened and re-tightened when the lift was done? The way the bushings are(bonded to the inner and outer sleeves), they should be relaxed at ride height- with the vehicle on the ground. If the bolts weren't loosened to allow the bushings to relax at their new position.

What!!!??? I didn't do this. I never heard of anyone doing this.

 

[Tyler James Inc]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner- I no longer get notifications from T4R when anyone tags or quotes me. So if I don't happen to open a thread where I was mentioned, I'll never know.

Anyway, no- when I mentioned relaxing the link bushings, I wasn't referring to the lower control arm bushings. I was referring to the bushings on all 10 ends of the 4 link and panhard bars- on the rear end.
After reading more of your posts- and seeing all the parts you've already replaced- I'm very confident your issue is worn out bushings on your upper and/or lower 4 link bars.
Some people call these "control arms", but I think that makes it confusing to talk about, and I call them "links" or "link bars".