Tires for The Racetrack at Death Valley

Kent10

New member
Hi:

I purchased my 1st 4runner (Trail) just last week (still waiting on delivery though) and am excited to do some trails that I didn't want to do in our car.

One such trail goes out 26 miles to "The Racetrack" in Death Valley NP. From what I have read it is a bad washboard road. After reading this Flat Tires « The Death Valley Journal I am considering getting new tires. The article explains that flats are very common on the way to the Racetrack and they recommend more than a 4 ply tire.

What tire would you recommend for me? Eventually I want to do some moderate offroading, nothing too extreme or dangerous since I am new to all of this. I have also had my eye on "Top of the World" trail near Moab, UT.

I think I am looking for an all around compromise tire. One that gets decent MPG and isn't too loud but one that is dependable for moderate trails off road. Am I on the right track to consider the following or do I need to get a LT tire. I can't always tell how many plies they have.

Yokohama's Geolandar A/T-S is On-/Off-Road All-Terrain Yokohama Geolandar A/T-S

Toyo open country A/T OPEN COUNTRY A/T | Toyo Tires

Nitto Terra Grappler Nitto Tires NTGAT TERRA GRAPPLER P265/70R17 113S

Firestone Destination A/T Firestone Destination A/T

Or these Firestone Destination A/T Firestone Destination A/T

BFG A/T KO's BFGoodrich All-Terrain T/A KO

Thanks very much, Kent
 
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Hi:

I purchased my 1st 4runner (Trail) just last week (still waiting on delivery though) and am excited to do some trails that I didn't want to do in our car.

One such trail goes out 26 miles to "The Racetrack" in Death Valley NP. From what I have read it is a bad washboard road. After reading this Flat Tires « The Death Valley Journal I am considering getting new tires. The article explains that flats are very common on the way to the Racetrack and they recommend more than a 4 ply tire.

What tire would you recommend for me? Eventually I want to do some moderate offroading, nothing too extreme or dangerous since I am new to all of this. I have also had my eye on "Top of the World" trail near Moab, UT.

I think I am looking for an all around compromise tire. One that gets decent MPG and isn't too loud but one that is dependable for moderate trails off road. Am I on the right track to consider the following or do I need to get a LT tire.

Congrats on the new purchase.

I've been over that road many times at good speed with no flats. Always with LTs and always aired down, though.

It's kind of an open question. The flatting resistance of Ps off road is hard to guage. Those who have had flats with them avoid them like the plague but many others have wheeled Ps pretty long and hard without flatting.

P-rated A/Ts will be tougher in the tread area but offer little in extra sidewall strength. Reducing pressure off-road helps a lot, but it does expose more sidewall. Still, the net effect of reduced pressure should be very positive for avoiding flats even in a P-rated tire.

I usually point people to passenger tires (P) as they are usuallly a far better choice, but it sounds like you may end up doing a fair amount of off-roading and so may want to consider LTs. Realize that LTs require more pressure to handle the same load, though. If you're prepared to run road pressure at bare minimum 35+ (40+ to really do it right) LTs could be a good choice. Most or all of the tires you listed will come in both P and LT.

It all boils down to how much off-roading you're going to do and probably you don't even know that.

I can't always tell how many plies they have.

Number of plies doesn't mean anything anymore. Load Range describes pressure holding strength but is sometimes referred to as ply rating. The most important distinction is between P and LT as the load/inflation curve is significantly different between the two.
 
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I run similar trails a lot in Arizona. I have BFG all terrains and have not had a problem cutting tires. My freind used to go out with us in a 4runner with stock tires. He cut a tire and did not realize it right away and kind of messed up the rim. He now has BFG all terrains and has not had a problem. In past years I went off roading with a lot of stock jeeps and on 2 occasions they had flat tires with stock tires and no problems after putting on better tires. In all off these cases it was sidewall punctures that ruined the tires and at least 3 occasions it was when running higher speeds on straight sections of the trail in sections with rocks approx 2-3 inches long. Some of those rocks have sharp edges. Stick with a tire with a least a 3 ply sidewall rating, the treads will have much higher ply rating. There are a lot of good all terrain tires out there and do not want to start another thread about witch one is better. Pick one you like the looks of and is readily available. One reason I like BFG all terrains is that they are available anywhere if you need one far from where you ordered your less common brand of tire.
 
a least a 3 ply sidewall rating,

Thanks for the advice 03_4x4Runner. I am confused by the 3 ply sidewall. I assumed the stock tires are 4 ply sidewall. Or are they less than that. I am thinking that for me the 6 ply C rating would be the best compromise. E would be a little much and with a drop in MPG. I am also confused when there is no "load range" rating of C, D or E. I think JB. was trying to explain this to me and that if there isn't the "load range" rating then it is a P tire and the sidewall strength is significantly less. Is that right. Or can you tell anything from the "load index" measured in pounds. Does a higher poundage mean a stronger sidewall and therefore less chance of a flat offroading. Thanks again.
 
I am confused by the 3 ply sidewall. I am thinking that for me the 6 ply C rating would be the best compromise. E would be a little much and with a drop in MPG. I am also confused when there is no "load range" rating of C, D or E. I think JB. was trying to explain this to me and that if there isn't the "load range" rating then it is a P tire and the sidewall strength is significantly less. Is that right. Or can you tell anything from the "load index" measured in pounds. Does a higher poundage mean a stronger sidewall and therefore less chance of a flat offroading.

It shouldn't be as hard as it is but Tire Rack insists on omitting the P or LT prefix in the tire size. Load Range letters starting with C and going up, are LTs. Load Range B is a special case. Ps are designated SL for Standard Load. So, P=SL, LT=Load Range

The Load Range indicates strength to contain air pressure. In this respect, higher load range equals stronger tire which fairly directly translates to off-road strength. Sometimes extra rubber is added to the sidewall of tires designed for off-road while keeping the cord strength the same which means the Load Range doesn't change. In this respect, a C tire with more sidewall rubber could resist penetration, in many instances, as well as, say, a D tire with stronger cord but less rubber. Tire construction is one endless tradeoff. Thicker sidewall rubber means less suitable for highway use due to increased tendency of the rubber to develop cracks.

Load index is straight forward in Ps but gets confusing in LTs because it is affected by the Load Range. I'd say ignore load index for now if comparing between the two tire types.

Number of plies doesn't matter. Most tires, including LTs, have two ply sidewalls. Some large truck tires have mega-strong sidewalls in just one ply. The three ply sidewall advertised by BFG is just marketing, imo. It's total sidewall strength that matters, not the number of plies, and typically that means two plies. Start talking ply rating (a holdover from the days when the number of plies measured strength) and it gets confusing. Load Range C,D,E = Ply rating 6,8,10.
 
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Thanks for the advice 03_4x4Runner. I am confused by the 3 ply sidewall. I assumed the stock tires are 4 ply sidewall. Or are they less than that. I am thinking that for me the 6 ply C rating would be the best compromise. E would be a little much and with a drop in MPG. I am also confused when there is no "load range" rating of C, D or E. I think JB. was trying to explain this to me and that if there isn't the "load range" rating then it is a P tire and the sidewall strength is significantly less. Is that right. Or can you tell anything from the "load index" measured in pounds. Does a higher poundage mean a stronger sidewall and therefore less chance of a flat offroading. Thanks again.

Most stock tires are 2 ply sidewall. I do not recomend going above a load range c or the ride becomes to stiff and the tire does not flex as well over rocks. Go to a tire store and feel the thickness of the sidewall on a stock type tire and an off road tires. You will see the stock tires have thin sidewalls. That is one reason that off road tires are heavier. Look at what tires other people use in the area use (real off roaders, not posers). That is a good indication of what works. There is a reason tires like BFG all terrains are very popular desert tires. Also air down to smooth the ride out. When we are out in the desert and in areas like death valley remember there is no service close by if you have a problem. You need equipment that is proven. I off roaded all over Moab when my 4rnner was stock and took a chance with the stock tires and did not have a problem. But it was always on the back of my mind that I could easily cut a tire. Do you feel lucky. When the car manufactures build specail off road models they typically use BFG all terrains, Hummer, Dodge power wagon, FJ cruiser trail teams edition, ford raptor etc. That should tell you something.
Looks like the tread area is 6 ply. BFGOODRICH ALL-TERRAIN T/A KO TIRE SPECS:

Tire Type: Radial
Tire Size: 285/75R16
Overall Diameter: 33 inches
Tread: 1-ply nylon + 2-ply steel + 3-ply polyester
Sidewall: 3-ply polyester

Get 5 tires, you do not want to be 26 miles from nowhere and have to put a stock spare tire on if needed.
I found this on a death valley site. I do not know why they call suvs bevs.
What are the best kind of tires?

Standard 4 ply tires as found on many passenger cars are more susceptible to damage, air leakage, and blowouts due to their lighter construction. If you see a letter "P" in your tire designation text on the sidewall (such as P265/75R16), you have this type of lighter construction. Park Rangers will tell you that passenger car tires are more likely to go flat if the driver inadvertently runs over a sharp rock. The rangers have told me that flat tires on passenger cars are one of the most common problems suffered by visitors driving the dirt backroads. If you wish to maximize your chances of not having tire problems, 6 ply rated steel belted radial LT tires are your better choice! I would strongly recommend that you run 6 ply LT tires (or greater) due to the more rugged terrain you may encounter on the backroads. Six ply rated tires have at least 4 tread plys + 2 sidewall plys, with some having 3 or 4 sidewall plys (best!). The extra ply construction and steel belts most assuredly give greater protection against sharp objects over which we drive, such as rocks. Changing a tire is not what you probably would like to be spending your time doing, so give yourself the added peace of mind that comes with stronger tires designed for the outback! Look for the letters "LT" on the sidewall text (such as LT265/75R16 or 31x10.50R15LT), which stand for light truck. Six ply rated tires are considered Load Range C. If you have tires that are Load Range D (8 ply, what I run on my BEV) or Load Range E (10 ply), you are even better equipped to survive potentially invasive road obstacles because the higher the rating, the sturdier the tire. Also, be sure that there is still plenty of good tread on your tires to help resist rock punctures. You will most assuredly be ahead of the game to not skimp on tires ... take it from someone who knows. Your tires are your greatest vulnerability! Better tires are worth the extra cost! Don't wait for your current P-rated tires to wear out. I also encourage every BEV to have a good full-size spare, tire changing equipment, and a tire repair kit! I cannot stress this enough, and for those who choose not to heed this advice, unpleasant surprises often await in the worst possible places and times.

Do you have any special suggestions for spare tires?

Yes! All vehicles should most definitely have one spare tire identical in size to the other four. Space saving spares are not acceptable. My last backroad tire damage that brought me to a stop was in 1979, but on that day, I unbelievably suffered two flats before noon in the Mojave Desert (the tires were not steel belted radials). Fortunately, I carried a kit that allowed me to repair both tires on the trail, reinflate them, and carry on. While flats are a rare occurrence for those who drive sensibly with 6 ply rating or higher, you must always plan for them. I definitely suggest that you carry a flat repair kit in your rig, along with a method to reinflate. These items are inexpensive and can be purchased at your local auto parts store. The best type of kit is one in which the job is accomplished using rubber plugs, a steel plunger, and tire glue. There are two types of inflators: one that runs off your power-point in the dashboard, and one that runs using the engine as the air compressor. The former is the easiest to use, and what I now have. Please be sure that your vehicle has the gear necessary to change a tire if needed (jack, handle, and lug wrench). If you have installed an after-market lift-kit on your rig, make sure the jack you have will still go high enough to lift the tire off the ground! Also, toss in a stout piece of wood on which to place the jack in the event you are on sandy ground. Recently, I lost all air in a tire when a large blunt boulder bent the bead - after a lot of reshaping with my sledge hammer, I was able to reinflate the undamaged tire with my small portable air compressor. Watch those rocks, whatever else you do! Steel wheels are sometimes preferable to cast aluminum because they bend rather than break, but today's alloys are pretty tough, so don't worry too much if you have aluminum alloy wheels (most BEV manufacturers now use them). You should be fine.
 
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JB. and 03_4x4Runner:

Thank you so much. This is great information and I am learning so much. Now I wish I could go on the trail tomorrow.
 
I think I am looking for an all around compromise tire. One that gets decent MPG and isn't too loud but one that is dependable for moderate trails off road.

Let's make this easy. You want dependable off-road, then LT it is.

That part is easy, any LT A/T will do fine for you in that regard. Now all you have to do is look for the other attributes you want. If you want quiet and decent mileage as well, Revo 2 would fit your needs nicely. It's a new tire that put "green" into its design by reducing rolling resistance. I was originally critical of that but after owning them and beating on them just as hard as I did on the BFG KOs (for not as long, though) with no flats, it's nice to also have the increased mileage, quiet, and wet traction that goes along with them. They have an S speed rating and are better suited for high speed use than a lot of LT A/Ts. They have one minor fault: A strong tendency to pick up stones when used off road.
 
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Let's make this easy. You want dependable off-road, then LT it is.

That part is easy, any LT A/T will do fine for you in that regard. Now all you have to do is look for the other attributes you want. If you want quiet and decent mileage as well, Revo 2 would fit your needs nicely. It's a new tire that put "green" into its design by reducing rolling resistance. I was originally critical of that but after owning them and beating on them just as hard as I did on the BFG KOs (for not as long, though) with no flats, it's nice to also have the increased mileage, quiet, and wet traction that goes along with them. They have one minor fault. They have a strong tendency to pick up stones when used off road.

Thanks. I looked at the Bridgestone site and the Revo 2's don't seem to come in Load Range C, only E. (see under specs) Product Details: Dueler A/T REVO 2 (eco)

You came from the BFG Load C to the Revo 2 Load E and you get better MPG with the Revo? I see the Revo's are 1 lb lighter so that might explain it. Do you think the Revo's with Load E give a harsh ride?
 
Thanks. I looked at the Bridgestone site and the Revo 2's don't seem to come in Load Range C, only E. (see under specs) Product Details: Dueler A/T REVO 2 (eco)

You came from the BFG Load C to the Revo 2 Load E and you get better MPG with the Revo? I see the Revo's are 1 lb lighter so that might explain it. Do you think the Revo's with Load E give a harsh ride?

No, they feel fine to me at 38psi (on paper I should use more pressure).

Harshness is overwhelmingly affected by air pressure more than anything else. The effect of tire construction is pretty small in comparison. Imo, most of LTs reputation for harshness comes from the fact that they tend to be used with more pressure which, of course, makes them more harsh.

Some load Es are really heavy, but as you saw, the Revo 2 is not one of them. It's not a particularly overbuilt Load E. Not a lot of extra rubber in the sidewall, for instance, but, for me, that's a feature, not a bug. I didn't want to move up in weight.
 
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Thanks! I finally feel like I know something about tires and feel quite confident in my decision to get the Revo 2 LT Load E.

I have done a lot of reading but still have a few questions.

The stock tire is 39 lbs and the Revo 2 is 46 lbs. I can't help but wonder what the MPG difference will be. I know it would be hard to determine but was wondering if anyone has tried to measure something like this. I am guessing/hoping 1 maybe 2 MPG at most. JB. You found better MPG with the Revo 2 over the BFG with only 1 lb difference between the tires. Do you think that is mostly due to the tread design instead of the weight?

What air pressure should I use. I have seen anywhere from 38-44psi as pretty typical for Load E. I will not be pulling anything. Is it best to run them as high as you can stand ridewise for best gas mileage. What is the highest then without pulling something. It says up to 80psi for the specs. I assume 38 is the lowest on road or else the tires will overheat. Should the front tires be the same as the back?

Is the psi different for in city or highway driving and off road. JB. you said deflating helps avoid flats. How low would you go on the Revo 2 and is it really necessary. If I don’t do it will my chance of getting a flat be that much better. Or do you deflate off road mainly to avoid the harsher ride?

Is is OK to turn the white letters in on the Revo 2. It looks like a symmetrical tire.

I don' t as a habit drive extremely fast but am wondering if 85-90 mph is a problem for these tires.

I see there is a 50,000 mile warranty on all the Revo 2 tires except the LT ones where there is nothing listed. Is that because the life could be a lot shorter with lots of off road use and so they don't want to provide any warranty.

Lots of questions. I really appreciate all of this help. I can't believe I might get new tires when just a couple days ago I wasn't considering it. I think I may just call Discount Tire to see if they will take my new stock tires in as a trade in. I have read others getting $75 for each, some only got $50 though.

Kent
 
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The stock tire is 39 lbs and the Revo 2 is 46 lbs. I can't help but wonder what the MPG difference will be. I know it would be hard to determine but was wondering if anyone has tried to measure something like this. I am guessing/hoping 1 maybe 2 MPG at most.I think it will be in that range but give the tires 1k or more before you draw a conclusion. Brand new tires can be disproportionately penalizing to mpg. BG. You found better MPG with the Revo 2 over the BFG with only 1 lb difference between the tires. Do you think that is mostly due to the tread design instead of the weight? Yes. Weight can matter more if the difference is significant and the driving has lots of quick accelerations, but typically rolling resistance will matter more

What air pressure should I use. I have seen anywhere from 38-44psi as pretty typical for Load E. I will not be pulling anything. Is it best to run them as high as you can stand ridewise for best gas mileage.Yeah, within reason. What is the highest then without pulling something. It says up to 80psi for the specs. I assume 38 is the lowest on road or else the tires will overheat. The returns diminish the higher you go so if you really want to pursue mileage, how about, say, 45lbs which puts you right about where you should be on paper anyway. Proper pressure won't change due to being load E since you'll be within the range a load C can handle. I'm comfortable with 38psi in this tire with its S speed rating and nylon cap ply, but I adjust for conditions. If you feel like more reading, here's a link http://www.toyota-4runner.org/444428-post14.html Full thread LT vs P inflation article - Toyota 4Runner Forum

Should the front tires be the same as the back?Presumably, but I own a 4th gen. See your door sticker or manual.

Is the psi different for in city or highway driving and off road. JB. you said deflating helps avoid flats. How low would you go on the Revo 2 and is it really necessary. If I don’t do it will my chance of getting a flat be that much better. Or do you deflate off road mainly to avoid the harsher ride? Both reasons. You don't have to but it's easier on the suspension, lowers the risk of flats, feels much better, and gives much better traction. Once you try it, I doubt you'll go back. I usually go 18-20lbs. That works well most of the time. Under certain conditions, pressure that low can impose some speed limitations, though.

Is is OK to turn the white letters in on the Revo 2. It looks like a symmetrical tire.No problem

I don' t as a habit drive extremely fast but am wondering if 85-90 mph is a problem for these tires.Not as long as you don't do it underinflated but, to me, the question illustrates why I think it's nice to have the cushion of the S speed rating. I wouldn't be comfortable doing 90mph in summer heat on a well used LT tire with a Q speed rating, which many of them have.

I see there is a 50,000 mile warranty on all the Revo 2 tires except the LT ones where there is nothing listed. Is that because the life could be a lot shorter with lots of off road use and so they don't want to provide any warranty.I presume it's something like that. No telling what LTs owners might do with their tires.

Kent

....
 
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JB: Thanks a million. I can't say thanks enough for all your help.

I noticed in the 4runner manual it says not to exceed 85MPH unless you have high speed capability tires. I looked up the specs of what I think is the stock tire and it is rated as S for speed. Strange but I guess Toyota is playing it safe.

Bridgestone Dueler H/T D684 II
 
I noticed in the 4runner manual it says not to exceed 85MPH unless you have high speed capability tires.

That's interesting. Generally, the higher the speed rating, the better a tire handles, so that may have come into play in the statement considering how crucial small things can be on a high center of gravity vehicle going fast.
 
I was just in Racetrack Valley on Saturday, for a 3 day Death Valley trip. The road must have ben recently graded, because it was quite smooth and easy travel. The best I've seen in the 6 or so trips I've done there. The last trip destroyed a Optima battery (which is hard to do) in my old Bronco. Fortunately I always bring a spare battery.

I have the Open Country A/T in a 285/70-17 (load E), and couldn't be more happy with their performance both on and off-road. I chose them because the appeared to be a quiet tire for on road, yet capable off-road. I found them to be slighly noisier than the stock tire, but not as loud as a BFG A/T KO. The on-road handling is excellent - they track very well, performed well in the snow, and have great wet and dry traction. The downside is that they are very heavy, and probably overkill for 95% of your driving. I can't say how the tires affected fuel mileage, since I put them on the same time I put on a lift, and also went up a tire size.

The off-road performance really impressed me this past weekend. drove around 200 miles on dirt roads and 4WD trails all over DV. I was at the Eureka Sand Dunes, up Dedekera Canyon to Steel Pass, then to the Racetrack, and out to H.W. 190 via Hunter Mountain. That road was still a bit rough, with a LOT of sharp, jagged rocks that were very hungry for some good fresh tire, with the sidewall being the really tasty part. The Toyos didn't flinch. I found the Toyo to be excellent in loose dirt/gravel/silt/sand traction, and stuck to bare rock up Dedeckera Canyon like glue.

Since it was on your list, I wanted to chime in and give you my experiences. Good luck with your decision.

Chris
 
Thanks Chris! Sounds great. Did you air down at all for those dirt roads.
You're welcome! Absolutely aired down for the trails and roads, altho Racetrack was in such good shape it wasn't necessary there, but was already aired down from other trails so kept it that way, until I hit the pavement.
 

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