Trail premium vs the Limited with respect...

[LandCruiser]

I test drove a GX460 recently. I was very unimpressed with the V8. It was refined and smooth, but acceleration seemed lackluster compared to my '03 V8 4Runner. I think the GX460 engine is just overwhelmed by the weight of the truck -- I think it is about 500 lbs heavier than my 4Runner.

While I understand it's CAFE, emissions, and crap like that... but when you're making a high-end luxury vehicle like that you don't skimp on the horsepower.

300 is depressing for a vehicle that should be generating 375-400 based on its weight and what the competition is cranking out.

Then again, Toyota will probably kill it off soon, so there's no good reason for updating powertrain at this point.

 

[M1911]

While I understand it's CAFE, emissions, and crap like that... but when you're making a high-end luxury vehicle like that you don't skimp on the horsepower.

300 is depressing for a vehicle that should be generating 375-400 based on its weight and what the competition is cranking out.

Then again, Toyota will probably kill it off soon, so there's no good reason for updating powertrain at this point.

It's not the HP that is the issue, it is the torque. And not just the peak torque, but the torque curve. My '03 feels peppy in comparison and it has only 230 HP or so. But what it has is 320 ft-lbs of torque down low in the rpm range. As a result, it doesn't take many revs or much gas to get it to scoot.

I don't think the 4.6 needs more HP. I think it needs more low-end torque.

The GX460 engine is basically the same 4.6 V8 as in the LS460.

 

[Bruin1md]

Test drive the KDSS then go to Baton Rouge and test drive the limited and Trail Premium back to back so you can get an idea of which model you want. You can also compare the interiors of the premium and limited in baton rouge, which is the main reason to go look.

I'm sorry I can't give you an answer on the way it drives. I have never driven cars, minivans, or crossovers. I don't have anything to compare driving an SUV or Tacoma to so I don't know the difference. To me it just drives like I expect an SUV to drive and maybe a little better than my past ones, which is all I ever wanted. I don't notice things like amount of body roll or nose dive because I have nothing to compare it to. My guess is vehicles with less body roll probably hit bumps much harder, and to be honest I'd take the body roll.

Just test drive the trail with KDSS in the rain, but didn't have time to test out the one without.

My immediate impression compared to the limited was it definitely has less less lean on turns and for whatever reason the braking feels more responsive, which I can't explain......I'm sure others here probably know why.
You feel the bumps a bit more on bad roads but we didn't take it over any speed bumps, and all in all it wasn't a bad ride........you definitely feel more connected to the road than in the limited, but I like that.

Keeping the car in 4WD high was a strange feeling during tight turns or reversing the car out and then turning ......that was not something I was used to. I'm not sure if you use it much on our roads here, but I found that keeping it in 2WD with traction control on seems to be enough even to handle the roads with with rain and some loose gravel.

Since I don't fully understand the differences in the full time X-REAS system by comparison (I did read one of the links in another thread about its design, but am not clear on how it translates to a different ride from part time 4WD), it's hard for me to reconcile why the 4WD feature on the trail feels so different from the limited's X-REAS.
It did make me appreciate the X-REAS quite a bit more though.
And of course the sales guy couldn't explain it at all.

 

[bimrunner]

Just test drive the trail with KDSS in the rain, but didn't have time to test out the one without.

My immediate impression compared to the limited was it definitely has less less lean on turns and for whatever reason the braking feels more responsive, which I can't explain......I'm sure others here probably know why.
You feel the bumps a bit more on bad roads but we didn't take it over any speed bumps, and all in all it wasn't a bad ride........you definitely feel more connected to the road than in the limited, but I like that.

Keeping the car in 4WD high was a strange feeling during tight turns or reversing the car out and then turning ......that was not something I was used to. I'm not sure if you use it much on our roads here, but I found that keeping it in 2WD with traction control on seems to be enough even to handle the roads with with rain and some loose gravel.

Since I don't fully understand the differences in the full time X-REAS system by comparison (I did read one of the links in another thread about its design, but am not clear on how it translates to a different ride from part time 4WD), it's hard for me to reconcile why the 4WD feature on the trail feels so different from the limited's X-REAS.
It did make me appreciate the X-REAS quite a bit more though.
And of course the sales guy couldn't explain it at all.

So, I'm trying to understand, but you are trying to compare the driving of the trail in 4wd on pavement with the LE? Huh? Don't need 4wd in rain. Also, not the best idea to be in 4wd in the parking lot... It isn't designed for that. You want to use it in low traction situations only. The LE is a totally different 4wd system. The x-reas is only a suspension system and has nothing to do with 4wd. It is a cross linked hydrolic suspension system to combat leans with active dampening. KDSS is not the same but is a hydrolic anti-sway system that attempts to improve on road driving and mostly allow the rig to have more flex offroad. I never tried it so I can't say anything good or bad about it but many like it.

Just do me a favor and read [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]'s write up on the different 4wd systems so you are more prepared to evaluate them properly.

 

[1engineer]

Just test drive the trail with KDSS in the rain, but didn't have time to test out the one without.

My immediate impression compared to the limited was it definitely has less less lean on turns and for whatever reason the braking feels more responsive, which I can't explain......I'm sure others here probably know why.
You feel the bumps a bit more on bad roads but we didn't take it over any speed bumps, and all in all it wasn't a bad ride........you definitely feel more connected to the road than in the limited, but I like that.

Keeping the car in 4WD high was a strange feeling during tight turns or reversing the car out and then turning ......that was not something I was used to. I'm not sure if you use it much on our roads here, but I found that keeping it in 2WD with traction control on seems to be enough even to handle the roads with with rain and some loose gravel.

Since I don't fully understand the differences in the full time X-REAS system by comparison (I did read one of the links in another thread about its design, but am not clear on how it translates to a different ride from part time 4WD), it's hard for me to reconcile why the 4WD feature on the trail feels so different from the limited's X-REAS.
It did make me appreciate the X-REAS quite a bit more though.
And of course the sales guy couldn't explain it at all.

XREAS AND KDSS are suspension systems not drivetrain components. Why in the world would you use 4WD in the rain??? Or on gravel? Mud, snow and slick conditions but rain?

After reading your posts you really need to learn at least the basics of how different 4wd systems work so you don't break something. Read the link in my signature on how 4wd systems work.

 

[Bruin1md]

So, I'm trying to understand, but you are trying to compare the driving of the trail in 4wd on pavement with the LE? Huh? Don't need 4wd in rain. Also, not the best idea to be in 4wd in the parking lot... It isn't designed for that. You want to use it in low traction situations only. The LE is a totally different 4wd system. The x-reas is only a suspension system and has nothing to do with 4wd. It is a cross linked hydrolic suspension system to combat leans with active dampening. KDSS is not the same but is a hydrolic anti-sway system that attempts to improve on road driving and mostly allow the rig to have more flex offroad. I never tried it so I can't say anything good or bad about it but many like it.

Just do me a favor and read [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION]'s write up on the different 4wd systems so you are more prepared to evaluate them properly.

The sales guy didn't warn me not to try 4WD in the rain .....I just wanted to compare the drives from 2WD traction to 4WD, and I didn't realize it was a "no no" to just try it on the pavement.
I get that X-REAS is a different suspension, but your explanation helps to explain a bit more about it-- and I read 1engineer's write up on AWD vs 4WD several days ago. Maybe after having learned a bit more since then I should search for it and read up on full time 4WD again, because I'm still confused as to what if any advantage full time 4WD in the X-REAS provides for most daily driving --including rain and cold weather -- over rear wheel drive with traction control? Is there any? If not, it seems better to have the part time feature and KDSS for 95%+ of daily driving and break out 4WD for towing and off roading?

KDSS suspension seemed to do a better job than X-REAS to limit body lean and provided a tighter ride overall, although I think I need to drive both again sans rain next week.
I Would have thought full time 4WD with its sports suspension would have given X-REAS an advantage over KDSS/trail on turns and overall sense of stability, but that didn't seem to be how it felt to me.

 

[cjacob316]

Just test drive the trail with KDSS in the rain, but didn't have time to test out the one without.

My immediate impression compared to the limited was it definitely has less less lean on turns and for whatever reason the braking feels more responsive, which I can't explain......I'm sure others here probably know why.
You feel the bumps a bit more on bad roads but we didn't take it over any speed bumps, and all in all it wasn't a bad ride........you definitely feel more connected to the road than in the limited, but I like that.

Keeping the car in 4WD high was a strange feeling during tight turns or reversing the car out and then turning ......that was not something I was used to. I'm not sure if you use it much on our roads here, but I found that keeping it in 2WD with traction control on seems to be enough even to handle the roads with with rain and some loose gravel.

Since I don't fully understand the differences in the full time X-REAS system by comparison (I did read one of the links in another thread about its design, but am not clear on how it translates to a different ride from part time 4WD), it's hard for me to reconcile why the 4WD feature on the trail feels so different from the limited's X-REAS.
It did make me appreciate the X-REAS quite a bit more though.
And of course the sales guy couldn't explain it at all.

What they said, the x-reas is the suspension, what you mean is the difference between full time (LE) and part time(TE,SR5) 4wd. The part time system is not meant to be used unless traction is poor, the only thing you need to gain traction is rain is quality tires. Steering will stiffen up (bind) on a part time 4wd vehicle if the tires can't slip.

 

[M1911]

Keeping the car in 4WD high was a strange feeling during tight turns or reversing the car out and then turning ......that was not something I was used to.

Don't do that!

The Trail Edition has a part-time 4WD system. It is not meant to be driven on pavement in 4WD around corners. The Trail Edition 4WD system does not have a center differential. As a result, when you put it in 4WD, the front and rear driveshafts must turn at the same speed. However, when you go around a corner, the rear axle takes a smaller radius than the front axle. As a result, the tires want the rear driveshaft to turn slower than the front. But it can't. As a result, you start stressing the drivetrain.

You can put a part-time 4WD system in 4WD on pavement if you avoid turns. But, really, you typically want to use it offroad or in snow.

The Limited Edition is different. It has a lockable, Torsen limited-slip central differential. That center diff does just the same thing as a front or rear diff -- it has one input shaft and distributes power to two output shafts (front and rear driveshafts) while allowing them to turn at different speeds. As a result, the Limited Edition can be kept in 4WD on dry pavement (just don't lock that center diff).

 

[Bruin1md]

XREAS AND KDSS are suspension systems not drivetrain components. Why in the world would you use 4WD in the rain??? Or on gravel? Mud, snow and slick conditions but rain?

After reading your posts you really need to learn at least the basics of how different 4wd systems work so you don't break something. Read the link in my signature on how 4wd systems work.

I went back and read your summary again, and it was necessary.

However, I would have expected the sales guy to have told me: "you really don't need to test out 4WD and here's why...."

I understand after reading your write up again why it's dangerous to keep a part time 4WD in 4wd mode during 'regular' driving conditions, including rain. That wasn't something I remembered going into the test drive today, so cut me some slack.

And I also understand that KDSS and X-REAS are suspensions and not drive trains, but since X-REAS is also described synonymously by many when mentioning its full time 4wd drive train, I used it in that context as well in some of my other posts.
Having learned what I have so far, trying to figure whether part time 4WD while in 2WD mode with KDSS, vs full time 4WD and X-REAS for daily driving is best for me has been challenging........and that's why I continue to post for insight. Taking the drive, the KDSS suspension seems the more spirited and secure feeling during turns and braking, but if it comes with the trade off of somewhat diminished handling in rainy/cold conditions compared to full time 4WD with the X-REAS, I'm not sure it's worth it.

In any case, this has been a learning experience for me and I appreciate all the responses and feedback along the way, despite the fact I probably sound like SUV moron to many.

 

[bimrunner]

I went back and read your summary again, and it was necessary.

However, I would have expected the sales guy to have told me: "you really don't need to test out 4WD and here's why...."

I understand after reading your write up again why it's dangerous to keep a part time 4WD in 4wd mode during 'regular' driving conditions, including rain. That wasn't something I remembered going into the test drive today, so cut me some slack.

And I also understand that KDSS and X-REAS are suspensions and not drive trains, but since X-REAS is also described synonymously by many when mentioning its full time 4wd drive train, I used it in that context as well in some of my other posts.
Having learned what I have so far, trying to figure whether part time 4WD while in 2WD mode with KDSS, vs full time 4WD and X-REAS for daily driving is best for me has been challenging........and that's why I continue to post for insight. Taking the drive, the KDSS suspension seems the more spirited and secure feeling during turns and braking, but if it comes with the trade off of somewhat diminished handling in rainy/cold conditions compared of full time 4WD with the X-REAS, I'm not sure it's worth it.

In any case, this has been a learning experience for me and I appreciate all the responses and feedback along the way, despite the fact I probably sound like SUV moron to many.

Well, sounds like you get it now. That was my intent. We all start somewhere and learning is the name of the game! If you like the way the trail with KDSS feels, get that one! If you like the way the LE with x-rease feels, get that one. It isn't a right or wrong, better or best thing. It is really subjective and depends on how you drive, where you drive etc.

FWIW, I ripped my x-rease out of my LE in 2 months. I wanted the full time 4wd because it is a different type of 4wd that I happen to like but I didn't care for the way it rides compared to a stiffer setup (I also have no swaybars at all). It doesn't really sound like you really even need 4wd, but I still recommend you get it in case you really ever want to go off road (my advice is learn from someone who is knowledgeable and patient). Trying out 4wd on a PT system is fine on pavement if done correctly. In fact it is a good idea to activate periodically to keep it actuating nicely and such (now I have gone and probably screwed the pooch...). Only activate 4wd on pavement if you aren't turning much and defo not in a parking lot unless you are going straight for a bit and then turn it off. Not something you do on a test drive though.

 

[Biggcrisp]

Public transportation is your friend. Lol

The sales guy didn't warn me not to try 4WD in the rain .....because I'm still confused as to what if any advantage full time 4WD in the X-REAS provides for most daily driving --including rain and cold weather -- over rear wheel drive with traction control? Is there any? If not, it seems better to have the part time feature and KDSS for 95%+ of daily driving and break out 4WD for towing and off roading?
e.

The Sales guy earns 50% of the blame.

Advantage of full time 4WD is: you don't have to move a lever.

It is better to have the advantage of full time 4WD: if you are a girl.

No: do not use 4WD for towing. Though 4WD low range is sometimes needed when parking a trailer. Just depends on the situation.

4WD for off-roading: Where to begin? maybe, maybe not. Going through deep mud might require 4WD. Going up and down steep rocky roads might require 4WD. Driving on a dry flat trail for miles with minimal obstacles might not require 4WD. Choice is what the lever is for.

You need to figure out what you need and report back to us. Otherwise take the bus.

 

[RainCityShecks]

It appears you've done some good research and probably have enough info to pull the trigger. Get the Limited and ditch the bicycle wheels for some 17's and you're good (i just ordered some 17's myself). You'll like the creature comforts (I came from Audi so no it's not he same but whatever, who cares, nobody needs all that crap) and you'll have the AWD + the 4x4 if you ever need it. Boom. Problem solved. 4Runner rocks man, my favorite vehicle ever! Plus, it's not so nice you wont be afraid to beat the bejeezus out of it - cause it can take it!

:guitar3: Rock on brother. And go Seahawks!

SEAHAWKS!

 

[bimrunner]

The Sales guy earns 50% of the blame.

Advantage of full time 4WD is: you don't have to move a lever.

It is better to have the advantage of full time 4WD: if you are a girl.

No: do not use 4WD for towing. Though 4WD low range is sometimes needed when parking a trailer. Just depends on the situation.

4WD for off-roading: Where to begin? maybe, maybe not. Going through deep mud might require 4WD. Going up and down steep rocky roads might require 4WD. Driving on a dry flat trail for miles with minimal obstacles might not require 4WD. Choice is what the lever is for.

You need to figure out what you need and report back to us. Otherwise take the bus.

I guess I'm a girl. Was waiting for a worthy 1000 post! That was maybe not it though...

 

[oljedi11950]

On the contrary perfect totally inane !

 

[Biggcrisp]

I guess I'm a girl. Was waiting for a worthy 1000 post! That was maybe not it though...

Ben, I was totally kidding around. Limited with a wheel/tire upgrade would be my first choice had the SR5 not been as nice as it is.

 

[M1911]

Advantage of full time 4WD is: you don't have to move a lever.

It is better to have the advantage of full time 4WD: if you are a girl.

Where fulltime 4WD shines is during changing conditions -- when the road goes from snow covered to wet to dry and back again. Or when you have to turn while going from a high traction surface to a low (or no) traction surface.

Even on a low traction surface, fulltime 4WD has the advantage that, while going around a corner, you aren't losing traction due to one axle slipping.

Fulltime 4WD gives you the very same ability as part-time 4WD -- lock the center diff and both axles turn at the same speed, just like a part-time system.

Downside of fulltime 4WD? That Torsen center diff is expensive.

 

[Jhalko]

I guess I'm a girl. Was waiting for a worthy 1000 post! That was maybe not it though...

He's just jealous that you dont have to put the key in the ignition to start her up.

 

[Bruin1md]

It appears you've done some good research and probably have enough info to pull the trigger. Get the Limited and ditch the bicycle wheels for some 17's and you're good (i just ordered some 17's myself). You'll like the creature comforts (I came from Audi so no it's not he same but whatever, who cares, nobody needs all that crap) and you'll have the AWD + the 4x4 if you ever need it. Boom. Problem solved. 4Runner rocks man, my favorite vehicle ever! Plus, it's not so nice you wont be afraid to beat the bejeezus out of it - cause it can take it!

:guitar3: Rock on brother. And go Seahawks!

SEAHAWKS!

I just wish I didn't like that KDSS suspension as much as I did.....

I'll drive my friend's limited and the KDSS at the dealer on dry pavement later this week one more time and then decide.
You're right about the creature comforts of the limited though ......they're pretty damn nice, especially the ventilated seats in our heat down here.

What do you think about getting the dealer to put on TRD wheels/tires on a limited as part of what I negotiate vs after market ones? I haven't even begun to research the right 17's for me.
That's next if I indeed choose the limited.

 

[JB.]

I just wish I didn't like that KDSS suspension as much as I did.....

I'll drive my friend's limited and the KDSS at the dealer on dry pavement later this week one more time and then decide.

Not sure which one corners flatter on a single turn but the LE should really shine on a slalom type turn and should perhaps resist nose dive better if you're inclined to go that far in your test drive.

 

[RainCityShecks]

I just wish I didn't like that KDSS suspension as much as I did.....

I'll drive my friend's limited and the KDSS at the dealer on dry pavement later this week one more time and then decide.
You're right about the creature comforts of the limited though ......they're pretty damn nice, especially the ventilated seats in our heat down here.

What do you think about getting the dealer to put on TRD wheels/tires on a limited as part of what I negotiate vs after market ones? I haven't even begun to research the right 17's for me.
That's next if I indeed choose the limited.

If you can get the new TRD Pro's included I'd do it. Even w/out I'd do it. Personally i'm getting the 17" 7.5's off the FJ/Trail Premium from ebay. If you go too bare bones (regarding creature comforts/trim) coming from a higher end vehicle you'll regret it - trust me as I've made that mistake twice. Your thought process seems very similar to mine when I was looking to buy the 4runner. Just get it (the LTD) and enjoy. It's a body on frame vehicle - a hyundi/kia car will handle better all day every day. Once you're good with that you're good with any 4runner. My 2 cents.

Go Hawks!