Trying to correct my UCA rub

[G_Raw]

I'm running an OME 3inch lift, armored with winch upfront . I have 285s on stock 5 stars. I make contact wit UCAs at full tilt or if straight and stuffed. I know the discussion starts with UCAs being changed vs wheels with back space change. My question is which is going to give me more resolution to the situation? Both arent necessarily cheap. I know I may need to make both changes in the end. Just asking for your folks opinion in where to start between the 2...

Thanks in advance.

 

[MaineRunna]

I'm running an OME 3inch lift, armored with winch upfront . I have 285s on stock 5 stars. I make contact wit UCAs at full tilt or if straight and stuffed. I know the discussion starts with UCAs being changed vs wheels with back space change. My question is which is going to give me more resolution to the situation? Both arent necessarily cheap. I know I may need to make both changes in the end. Just asking for your folks opinion in where to start between the 2...

Thanks in advance.

If your upper control arm is contacting the wheel or tire you need new wheels with different backspacing or wheel spacers. New wheels are going to cost $400-$1200, UCAs $400-$700, wheel spacers under $100

 

[RotaryDreamz]

As mentioned above, I would start with wheel spacers first as the cheaper option. Definitely upgrade your UCA's when you can. New wheels would be my last resort.

I ended up getting spacers and SPC UCA's with my Tundra split spoke wheels. Works great. I'm looking into buying new wheels now, but mainly for personal preference, rather than performance. I want a different look while going back down to 16's. Good luck.

 

[rkntoy]

Or you can shave the UCA.

 

[mtbtim]

Hate to be that guy but this is an issue you could have found out about with a little bit of research before purchasing the tires. Pretty much everybody and their brother knows 285's will rub the stock UCAs without wheel spacers or different back spacing rims.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just mentioning the obvious that maybe others didn't want to say. Before spending over $1k on tires, you would have realized the issue and maybe either decided to not go with 285s or you would have saved more money so you could purchase wheel spacers or aftermarket UCAs to make your chosen tires work better for your rig.

 

[MStudt]

I second shaving the uca. I hate wheel spacers, and wouldn't recommend ever running them. Of course you'll need a welder or know someone with a welder. If you go this route I would purchase a used set from eBay or from a member here. Pop out the old bushings, and then shave the uca's. Install some new bushings, and install them.

Mike

 

[rkntoy]

I think I might have a shaved set somewhere in my shop - if I can find them. Was going to use them on my son's 4runner but then I flopped it wheeling and totaled it.

 

[G_Raw]

Hate to be that guy but this is an issue you could have found out about with a little bit of research before purchasing the tires. Pretty much everybody and their brother knows 285's will rub the stock UCAs without wheel spacers or different back spacing rims.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just mentioning the obvious that maybe others didn't want to say. Before spending over $1k on tires, you would have realized the issue and maybe either decided to not go with 285s or you would have saved more money so you could purchase wheel spacers or aftermarket UCAs to make your chosen tires work better for your rig.

Tim you're not being a dick perse...I did know they'd rub. In fact I discussed it with you in a PM where you stated Camburgs UCA corrected your issue for the most part I believe. We even then discussed other brands like SPC and Total Chaos which you gave me your opinions on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by G_Raw
Hey Tim,
TBU went well and rear drums got new bleeders in. Now I have gotten mixed messages with my search of the forums about lift to tire size ratios. I know you have not only done a bunch of lifts for folks but have seen a bunch of 3rd gens lifted with various tires. I was going to do OME HD lift front and back with armored bumpers. I was thinking of putting 285/75r 16's on. Some people say no rub, some run spacers, some say minimal rub. Am I being overly ambitious to go that large? I don't want to run spacers at all. I'll be using my stock 16x7 5 stars.


I appreciate your input and help with my build.
Mtbtim response:
How tall of a lift is that? Will your lift include aftermarket upper control arms. With 285s and no spacers, your tires will rub on stock UCAs. The rear shouldn't be a problem. It's mostly the front. I have that size tire on my rig with a 3 inch lift and Camburg UCAs. My tires will rub in the wheel wells sometimes, usually when I turn and hit a hard compression.
__________________
"My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it!"
:End quote:

So I knew what I was getting into.

With the that said. I refuse to run spacers for my own personal reasons.

Looking at the space between tires and UCAs I'm skeptical to think swapping UCAs will correct the situation. Although it would help my UBJ angles.

I really wanted to stick with stock wheels and while I knew the back spacing would be a potential issue. Based on our conversation I was optimistic about UCAs correcting most of the rubbing. But now im thinking the wheel backspacing is the greater issue.

In terms of running shaved UCAs while I appreciate the offer [MENTION=135317]rkntoy[/MENTION] but if I'm swapping UCAs anyways I'd rather use uniball and correct my ball joint stress.

So as stated in my original post I know I ultimately may need to change both my wheels and UCAs. I guess the question can be rephrased as at what back spacing on wheels will I start to see a better correction to the rub vs changing the UCAs?

Or rephrased as at what point does changing wheels with back spacing to correct my UCA rub start to create other contact issues in exchange for that less uca rub?

Or will a specific UCA create less rub than others?

Or what's the most efficient order of operations for this correction? UCAs then wheels? Wheels then UCAs? Does one of these corrections correct more than the other?

I think anyone who ends up here( these forums) all know the issues we are getting into when moding our rigs.or that we will run into issues in this process. Im purely looking for first hand expierence in correcting this issue I'm currently having based on the specific setup I have, which others don't specifically list in other threads I've searched.

 

[rkntoy]

I have loved my SPC arms. Consider them if you are going to want to tweak with your caster down the road.

 

[APhelps]

Hate to be that guy but this is an issue you could have found out about with a little bit of research before purchasing the tires. Pretty much everybody and their brother knows 285's will rub the stock UCAs without wheel spacers or different back spacing rims.

I'm not trying to be a dick. I'm just mentioning the obvious that maybe others didn't want to say. Before spending over $1k on tires, you would have realized the issue and maybe either decided to not go with 285s or you would have saved more money so you could purchase wheel spacers or aftermarket UCAs to make your chosen tires work better for your rig.

I wasn't rubbing my UCAs on 285s with a 3" lift. Problem is the car drove terrible, couldn't get the proper caster. (3 spoke wheels though)

 

[mtbtim]

I wasn't rubbing my UCAs on 285s with a 3" lift. Problem is the car drove terrible, couldn't get the proper caster. (3 spoke wheels though)

You obviously aren't related to Everyone and Their Brother then.

 

[mtbtim]

Tim you're not being a dick perse...I did know they'd rub. In fact I discussed it with you in a PM where you stated Camburgs UCA corrected your issue for the most part I believe. We even then discussed other brands like SPC and Total Chaos which you gave me your opinions on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by G_Raw
Hey Tim,
TBU went well and rear drums got new bleeders in. Now I have gotten mixed messages with my search of the forums about lift to tire size ratios. I know you have not only done a bunch of lifts for folks but have seen a bunch of 3rd gens lifted with various tires. I was going to do OME HD lift front and back with armored bumpers. I was thinking of putting 285/75r 16's on. Some people say no rub, some run spacers, some say minimal rub. Am I being overly ambitious to go that large? I don't want to run spacers at all. I'll be using my stock 16x7 5 stars.


I appreciate your input and help with my build.
Mtbtim response:
How tall of a lift is that? Will your lift include aftermarket upper control arms. With 285s and no spacers, your tires will rub on stock UCAs. The rear shouldn't be a problem. It's mostly the front. I have that size tire on my rig with a 3 inch lift and Camburg UCAs. My tires will rub in the wheel wells sometimes, usually when I turn and hit a hard compression.
__________________
"My old man is a television repairman, he's got this ultimate set of tools. I can fix it!"
:End quote:

So I knew what I was getting into.

With the that said. I refuse to run spacers for my own personal reasons.

Looking at the space between tires and UCAs I'm skeptical to think swapping UCAs will correct the situation. Although it would help my UBJ angles.

I really wanted to stick with stock wheels and while I knew the back spacing would be a potential issue. Based on our conversation I was optimistic about UCAs correcting most of the rubbing. But now im thinking the wheel backspacing is the greater issue.

In terms of running shaved UCAs while I appreciate the offer [MENTION=135317]rkntoy[/MENTION] but if I'm swapping UCAs anyways I'd rather use uniball and correct my ball joint stress.

So as stated in my original post I know I ultimately may need to change both my wheels and UCAs. I guess the question can be rephrased as at what back spacing on wheels will I start to see a better correction to the rub vs changing the UCAs?

Or rephrased as at what point does changing wheels with back spacing to correct my UCA rub start to create other contact issues in exchange for that less uca rub?

Or will a specific UCA create less rub than others?

Or what's the most efficient order of operations for this correction? UCAs then wheels? Wheels then UCAs? Does one of these corrections correct more than the other?

I think anyone who ends up here( these forums) all know the issues we are getting into when moding our rigs.or that we will run into issues in this process. Im purely looking for first hand expierence in correcting this issue I'm currently having based on the specific setup I have, which others don't specifically list in other threads I've searched.

The UCAs alone will correct it. I'm running stock 5 spoke wheels on my 98 with Camburg UCAs and no rubba dub dubby.

 

[APhelps]

You obviously aren't related to Everyone and Their Brother then.

haha!

Well I did/am running BFG KO2s which run a bit smaller than most 285/75/16s or so I'm told. This forum is sort of a mixed bag of information (unfortunately) since you'll find people who say A or B and etc. etc.

I will say a body lift and proper backspacing is the way to go when it comes to having the right setup.

 

[G_Raw]

I appreciate that comment Aphelps as it further proves mixed messages I've gotten in my searches. You state clearly no rub with 285s, but run a different wheel and no mention of lift setup. This is sort of comment is what makes assessing and weighing decisions hard. We all get different results, and don't always provide all relevant information. This is to not say you're at fault of anything. I'm just using your comment as a means to an end for my explanation.

My concern with spc while being at a cheaper ( and more attractive) price point is the adjustability, and potential slipping of that adjustability causing alignment issues with heavy use.

I hear good things about built right as well. Anyone run those? Cost on those?

UCAs with wheels back spacing of 4 sufficient to resolve UBJ stress and uca rub? I guess this opens a different can of worms into pinch weld smashing and heatgun fender lining molding?

Damn rabbit holes. One upgrade leads to another:violin:

 

[APhelps]

I appreciate that comment Aphelps as it further proves mixed messages I've gotten in my searches. You state clearly no rub with 285s, but run a different wheel and no mention of lift setup. This is sort of comment is what makes assessing and weighing decisions hard. We all get different results, and don't always provide all relevant information. This is to not say you're at fault of anything. I'm just using your comment as a means to an end for my explanation.

My concern with spc while being at a cheaper ( and more attractive) price point is the adjustability, and potential slipping of that adjustability causing alignment issues with heavy use.

I hear good things about built right as well. Anyone run those? Cost on those?

UCAs with wheels back spacing of 4 sufficient to resolve UBJ stress and uca rub? I guess this opens a different can of worms into pinch weld smashing and heatgun fender lining molding?

Damn rabbit holes. One upgrade leads to another:violin:

I did mention I was running a 3" lift.

I run built right UCAs, nice uniball design. I think I paid 600 or so for them. My next mod is spindle gussets that's for sure. That's a piece breaking that has me worried.

 

[theesotericone]

My concern with spc while being at a cheaper ( and more attractive) price point is the adjustability, and potential slipping of that adjustability causing alignment issues with heavy use.

I think I've put my rig through some of the heaviest use you can. I run SPC's. I've broken links, blown CV's, bent ADD tubes, mangled both inner and outer tie rods, flattened cam tab bolts and a list of lots of other trail damage.

Not once have my SPC's moved.

 

[G_Raw]

I did mention I was running a 3" lift.

I run built right UCAs, nice uniball design. I think I paid 600 or so for them. My next mod is spindle gussets that's for sure. That's a piece breaking that has me worried.

I understand but 3" lift alone tells me nothing other than height. Rub also relate to spring stiffness and rate on compressions. As well as strut rates and so on. You running OME's, HD OME's, Coilovers, Bilsteins, OME struts, etc... thats the only thing I am saying. It wasn't intended to put you in a place of going on the defense. Please don't take it that way. I purely used it as an example that a comment like " Three inch lift on 285's with no rub" doesn't tell me anything about the rest of your set up, and the rest of the setup does play a factor in rubbing. This was again was intended to show that despite searching forums not all information is provided for each setup being commented on. You said it yourself you will get A or B opinions on this matter.

I respect Tim, I think we all do. He has given us so much information, which is why I reached out to him directly prior to starting a thread. It was a little unexpected having had that conversation through PM's to have him post his initial comments directed at me. I have made these comments in this thread to let you folks know that I have done my due diligence and researched this matter. This thread feels as if it has become something it was never intended to. I'm purely looking for insight and input.

I did know I was going to have rub issues. I am now running you folks through my stock setup to see if you folks have insight to how to correct this matter the most efficiently. And lets be honest almost none of us are running identical setups so I understand it is hard to sift through for others as well. Some of you have only used one brand of UCA's and some have used multiple.

Thanks all for the insight so far. I'd like to stop discussion about the above and return to my search for information. So for more specifics my trucks situation when it is sitting flat on the driveway with wheels facing forward have just under a half inch from the outer most edge of my stock UCAs to my tires (285 KO2's). With that little space there I'm hesitant to believe a UCS change will yield the best result. Which is why again I'd like to ask the question in this format: Will I see greater corrections to my UCS rub with a change of UCA's vs change of wheels to a backspace of 4? Did anyone find themselves with this little space between UCA's and what worked for you to correct it?

One thing I haven't found which I find odd. And I'm not sure if anyone else has tried to get this info. But I haven't found a page in any forum, no on manufactures sites listing angles of bends in UCA's, or distance from mounting points to uni ball of their UCAs. That sort of information would be relevant in trying to eliminate UCA rub. I would assume they can use different angles since uniballs allow for better articulation and those angle changes would help to minimize or eliminate rub at full tilt. Has anyone tried to really log information like this?

 

[RandyBobandy]

I had about that much space between my tires and UCAs when I first went to 285s, I originally corrected it with wheel spacers, however I eventually switched to uniball UCAs for alignment reasons and that also corrected my rubbing issues so I removed the spacers, no rubbing whatsoever since getting aftermarket UCAs, I’m also running stock wheels

 

[rkntoy]

I appreciate that comment Aphelps as it further proves mixed messages I've gotten in my searches. You state clearly no rub with 285s, but run a different wheel and no mention of lift setup. This is sort of comment is what makes assessing and weighing decisions hard. We all get different results, and don't always provide all relevant information. This is to not say you're at fault of anything. I'm just using your comment as a means to an end for my explanation.

My concern with spc while being at a cheaper ( and more attractive) price point is the adjustability, and potential slipping of that adjustability causing alignment issues with heavy use.

I hear good things about built right as well. Anyone run those? Cost on those?

UCAs with wheels back spacing of 4 sufficient to resolve UBJ stress and uca rub? I guess this opens a different can of worms into pinch weld smashing and heatgun fender lining molding?

Damn rabbit holes. One upgrade leads to another:violin:

I run Bilstein Tundra valved 5100 and Tundra TRD springs in front, clip on the middle (3rd) slot. Used to run Level 8 MK6 wheels 17x8 -12 offset (like 4.1" BS) and did not have issues with the stock UCA when I was running 33" tires. I found this backspace to be a great compromise.

On the SPC arms, you need to look at what your definition of "heavy use" is going to be. I wheel the snot out of my rig with 37s and have never had them slip - not even a little. But I am a rock crawler and snow wheeler primarily and do not try to see how much air I can catch with my rig. All my friends that crawl have the same experience with them.

 

[APhelps]

I understand but 3" lift alone tells me nothing other than height. Rub also relate to spring stiffness and rate on compressions. As well as strut rates and so on. You running OME's, HD OME's, Coilovers, Bilsteins, OME struts, etc... thats the only thing I am saying. It wasn't intended to put you in a place of going on the defense. Please don't take it that way. I purely used it as an example that a comment like " Three inch lift on 285's with no rub" doesn't tell me anything about the rest of your set up, and the rest of the setup does play a factor in rubbing. This was again was intended to show that despite searching forums not all information is provided for each setup being commented on. You said it yourself you will get A or B opinions on this matter.

To be more specific I'm running a Toytec Boss setup but in general I don't necessarily see how different shocks / springs are going to matter if they are properly lifting the vehicle to a certain height. I'm probably actually am/was closer to 2.5" in the front than 3" anyways.

I do wonder if its possible people have sagging bushings which is causing the wheel to sit in a way that it rubs the control arm. (also unlikely I'd believe)

What is likely is the difference in backspacing between the 96-98 wheels I was running and the 99+ wheels you are running. As far as I'm aware of is the 99+ wheels will fit a TBU but the 96-98 won't indicating the BS is different.

No need to apologize since I wasn't offended to begin with anyways. The issue that arises with forums is that most (if not all of us) are not paid so there's not any real motivation to detail everything to fine points. More of a result of laziness / time constraints than withholding information though.