TX - Santa Fe High School Shooting
- Thread starter RCFJ
- Start date
Hepar
New member
No. No it doesn't. It varies quite a bit state to state. And as far as enforcing it in this scenario, being you were required to pass a background check to purchase it in the first place, it would behoove you to then make sure to go through the proper channels when selling it. Doesn't seem like smart poker to have a gun out there in someone else's hands with your named on it.
Agreed. So wouldn't a working uniformed agency be of good use?
I'm a bit confused. Where exactly are you losing your rights in that fantasy scenario?
I'm in.
nevada
Senior Member
what do you mean no it doesn't? it DOES exist. it is NOT enforceable.
nevada
Senior Member
he didn't say anything about losing rights. he asked what other rights will be allowed via a tiered system?
as to that other thing. it would require a nationwide gun registry. sounds familair, I wonder who else in history implemented such a thing?
nevada
Senior Member
how would you enforce that?
also, if its a requirement(to exercise a right), would they be locked in .gov supplied safes?
Gunslinger-13
New member
Your first point about background checks. EVERY single one of the mass shootings in the last few years has been carried out with a legally obtained firearm that the owner went through a background check to buy!!!
There is already a list of things preventing folks from purchasing firearms. Form 4473 has several questions that will disallow a purchase; for instance if someone is a habitual user of Marijuana or other controlled substances, a felon or convicted of domestic violence.
So those would do nothing to stop future mass shootings, as it didn't stop any of the last ones from happening!!!
Your fantasy reads as a nightmare to me. Would you also be okay with a tiered system for our other rights?
How about you start out being searched and property seized without a probable cause or a warrant until you prove you have nothing to hide and then you can still be searched without a warrant or probable cause until you are 21?
Or you can only vote in local county elections starting at 18 and then on to state elections at 21 and federal elections when 25?
Or how about you can only practice religion when you hit 21?
I could keep going, but there is no need.
You'd save more lives by passing legislation disallowing anyone to own a pool who has children under the age of 18 and disallowInc the use of a pool by anyone under the age of 18, than you would with your list above.
In your fantasy, you are creating separate classes of citizens designated by and allowed permissions by the State. That is completely unacceptable and just wrong.
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Gunslinger-13
New member
To your first point- several states have universal background laws in place. They have done nothing to stop crime, mass shootings or private sales of firearms. They have limited private sales of firearms but not stopped it.
Plus, you can make your own firearm with very basic shop tools and plans/diagrams available online and in libraries across the nation. And that has no name attached to it and can be sold over and over again without a background check or anyone to trace it to.
To your next point. There already IS a uniform agency for checking backgrounds. It's the ATF and state level FBI branches via the NICS (National Instant Check system) system. .gov agencies and local/state agencies don't have the resources to submit and report everything. Again, big failure by big government. It happens to everything they get their hands into!
This is the problem! There are already too many laws not being enforced or followed. Creating more has shown time and time again to have the opposite affect the gun control advocates say they will.
When concealed carry laws were passed, gun control advocates said there would be "blood in the streets" and Wild West shootings over parking spots and road rage- but everywhere that has passed concealed carry laws has seen violent crime go DOWN and this blood in the streets wet dream never happens.
Statistically concealed carry permit holders are less likely to commit crimes than anyone else including law enforcement officers!!!
You said in another post "this just highlights the issues we as a society have with guns".
I'd posit the opposite- it highlights the issues we have with government failures and failures of gun control legislation to lessen crime or prevent deaths. And it absolutely highlights the issues we have with mental health, parenting and how messed up our public education system is.
We have people issues, not gun issues.
Hepar
New member
I think we may be talking about two different things. What I'm saying does not exist is a base nationwide system and set of regulations that each state combined must adhere to.
True, they said "give" which I implied to mean as give up. Which could also be looked at as taken away.
Which is why I prefaced my entire post by saying that none of what I was proposing was intended to stop mass shootings. Like I've said many times before, the areas I feel we can make a difference in are with suicides, accidental shootings and other related areas.
I also don't disagree with you here. My thoughts aren't to add onto existing laws. In fact, I would argue that if you could rip it down and start from ground 0, that the laws would be less and more simplified.
If any of you think that some of those other "rights" such as voting, speech and religion aren't already on their own tiered system, then I suggest maybe recalibrating your views.
And to finish, I mentioned before that nothing is going to move anywhere as it stands. Too many people want everything to change as well as too many people want nothing to change. Only when enough people just want something to change will we see any progress.
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Gunslinger-13
New member
I understand your position comes from a place of empathy, good intentions, caring and wanting to do what is right. I am no different. We just perceive things differently.
I truly care for my fellow man and have great respect for life and this beautiful, chaotic, magnificent universe we inhabit. That's one of many reasons I am so passionate about the individual Right to own arms to defend themselves and others.
It's so easy to do "something", out of frustration rather than the right thing. History has been repeating itself for millennia. Our history is also our window into the future. Always has been.
Therefore we must stop the insanity of following the same path and allowing the State to become all powerful.
This is so much bigger than a gun, a vote, a voice to have your opinion and speak it without fear of reprisal, a feeling of not dealing with being grabbed off the street and detained and having your property taken without due process, being able to practice the religion or life style of our choosing so long as you do not infringe on the Rights and freedoms of others- it's our base existence. The core of who we are and who we will become.
Good intentions alone has and will lead us down a path of great disparity.
the path to preventing suicide is not through controlling objects, but treating people.
The path to fewer accidental deaths is through firearms education and better parenting.
The path to our mutually beneficial future is through reigning in our out of control government. Making real changes to the public education system whilst simultaneously allowing vouchers for private schooling, and stopping the knee jerk reaction legislation that doesn't affect positive change , ever.
Prohibition of ideas, substances, tools, arms, etc- has never solved any problem in our entire history. It has always made things worse. It's time to make real change and stop denying human nature as it exists and the reality we inhabit, and that's never easy.
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Hepar
New member
I think it would be interesting to have a convo about this face to face. There are quite a few points I agree with and others I don't. But do feel the discussion would be worth while and perhaps thought-provoking on both perspectives.
BackOff
New member
I don't think you can enforce responsibility, it is an action of any person at a core level.
Could make laws with a consequence to it I guess.
Just scare the sh*t out of every one so no one even wants a gun in their home.
That will most likely be the outcome if parents cant even think for themselves any more.
Just be a responsible citizen. Do we need classes in that too? Looks like.
Does our constitutional rights trump our ability to be responsible for our actions?
Just me...I think if I had a boy from the ages of 6 to 21 years old living under my roof I would not want them to be able to go on a killing spree with my weapons and I would make them inaccessible to him. Seems like its usually boys doing the shootings.
For personal home defense you could use a fingerprint safe.
Like this.
https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...qmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_85neo33uhf_e
Just that, might, cut down on school shootings.
The gun banners just get more fuel for their fire every shooting.
Although this TX kid made pipe and pressure cooker bombs that failed...good thing for that.
No one noticed him doing that and not much talk about it after.
I do apologize if I have offended any religious folks, not all of us need this 'God' thing to get through the day. I have been God free since '83! The worst part is just trying not to step on the toes of the 'enlighted' folks.
By the way, we are all still human and on the same planet...just a reminder.
Seems so hypocritical to me...one of the few pics of this last shooter were from his church group.
BrianSD_42
New member
I haven't check this thread in a week. Did I miss anything uniquely enlightening? :washing:
Personally I'm still waiting and hoping for congress to pass a national CCA law, strike down IX, and a few other things. Rewriting the entirely stupid arbitration law that allows employers to f over employees and customers would be great thing congress could do as well.
Personally I'm still waiting and hoping for congress to pass a national CCA law, strike down IX, and a few other things. Rewriting the entirely stupid arbitration law that allows employers to f over employees and customers would be great thing congress could do as well.
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nevada
Senior Member
I think if a "killing spree" is even a consideration, you have already failed as a parent. of course, just so we're clear, im not necessarily saying YOU personally. just in general. if that option is even remotely on the table, things have seriously gone wrong in the parenting process.
to which I place some of the blame on our illustrious government. parents can actually face criminal charges for disciplining their children. its no surprise that now we are seeing those undisciplined humans doing despicable things. they have been allowed to do wtfever they want with nary a consequence.
back to the bolded section. I have boys in that age range, and a killing spree isn't even in the top 10,000 things im concerned about them doing. they know all about guns and how dangerous they can be. we have had many discussion on the subject, and will continue to do so. they respect, not fear firearms. we educate, not shelter them.
I think this is part of the reason we are seeing the types of gun related problems we are anymore. we don't educate anymore. in fact kids are being punished because of things that even resemble firearms. pop-tarts, drawings etc. how ridiculous is that? massive opportunities to educate our children are being wasted.
I believe this is a huge reason for the child related accidental shootings. kids don't know what to do/what not to do in regards to a firearm. they have been prevented the knowledge to make smart choices.
nevada
Senior Member
most probably wont like this, but we already have one. its quite old. its number 2 on a pretty important list.
BackOff
New member
I am sure everyone would like to feel that they have instilled their good moral values in your offspring.
What happens when your kid gets dumped by his 'soul mate' and freaks out, grabs one of your guns and kills her and anyone else that gets in the way.
I know I would feel like sh*t. If it was my guns. I think it sucks even when its not my guns. Sucks for the dead too, and the ones left wondering what the f... happened.
Its irresponsible behavior.
hikenbike
New member
[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] turned pro-Hillary big time. Other than that, didn't miss anything.
Thai
Elite Member
That’s so wrong. You could have insulted my family...but to call me a pro-Hillary is crossing the line in the sand!
turbo8
Member
Saw this in Quora, Thought I would post it here.
https://www.quora.com/What-would-gun-enthusiasts-in-the-US-suggest-be-done-to-prevent-all-the-school-shootings-and-30-000-gun-related-deaths-a-year-if-theyre-not-prepared-to-give-up-their-guns
Well, before I explain some potential solutions, allow me to establish some facts that I doubt you are aware of.
Take a GOOOOOOOOD look at that chart.
That is a chart of gun ownership to homicide rate. This study was done by the Small Arms Survey and when viewing the trend line drawn on this graph, it is clear that the greater quantity of firearms is possessed by the population, murders have a tendency to be lower.
However there is a much better correlation between crime and economic situation. Poorer nations tend to be more violent.
Now let's look at your gun deaths.
“Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths.”
Statistics on Gun Deaths & Injuries | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence
Another fact this source admits is:
“Guns were used in 11,078 homicides in the U.S. in 2010, comprising almost 35% of all gun deaths, and over 68% of all homicides.”
Why does this matter? Because guns, obviously don't cause suicide. South Korea, a nation with few guns, has one of the worst suicide rates in the world.
So your 30,000 number is crap.
The suicides can be helped with better counseling and intervention programs such as red flag laws.
The number we need to be concerned with is the 11,000 gun deaths. But before we do that, let me just point out that 10,500 people are killed by drunk driving, roughly the same amount of damage done. Where is the left's outrage? Where are the thousands of people in the capital asking for restrictions on alcohol?
Hmmmm. I can't seem to find them.
I believe this is what you might call selective outrage. Speaking of selective outrage, did you know that 7,105 murders are committed with handguns compared to only 374 with rifles. That 374 is all rifles including the AR15. Now everybody is discussing how dangerous AR15s are but almost nobody mentions handguns nowadays. On top of that nobody mentions the 1,604 murders committed by knives or the 903 people killed by hands and feet even though both of these numbers completely dominate the number of “assault rifle” deaths.
In light of these facts, the reason why the NRA and myself do not support your self-stylized “common sense” gun reform is that there is no common sense in it. All of the laws that have been proposed don't even address the real issues. For crying out loud, in the past 25 years, the average kids killed in school shootings per year was about 10. Just 10 out of over 50,000,000 students. That is a 1 in 5,000,000 chance of being killed in a school shooting. The chance of being struck by lightning according to National Geographic is 1 in 700,000.
Do we need lightning control????
Even if the laws did address the actual problems and not fantasy, effectiveness of gun control is debatable. Pro-gun people love to point out Chicago as a gun control failure, to which leftists reply that the guns come from places with looser laws. Yet they fail to explain why the places of origin for the guns don't have high crime like Chicago. The fact is, armed assailants LOVE gun free zones. Over 90% of mass shootings occur in some form of gun free zone.
Now, for the solutions:
End gun free zones. Completely. Who are we fooling? They don't work. The only place that should be allowed to be gun free is a building like an airport or government building where it has its own security force and metal detectors.
Encourage gun safety and concealed carry handgun courses among all citizens, especially teachers.
End the “Promise” program and all things that work to that effect. They are a hindrance to law enforcement.
Encourage gun ownership for all Americans.
Make firearm safety (not shooting though) a mandatory course for all schools. This will help with accidents.
Have security guards and metal detectors in schools. Any teachers that wish to carry a concealed firearm in school must confirm this with school security and the local police department so that in the event of a shooting, the law enforcement would know that there may be armed people other than the shooter on the scene and who those people are. This will make friendly fire less likely.
Lastly, our gang violence is a cultural problem. The great majority of people associated with gangs come from single parent homes. This is because boys need a strong male companionship and role models. If they don't get it from a mature father, they will seek it with other boys their age. That, to a certain degree, is how gangs form; young men seeking a sense of belonging. We must do what we can to support families and get our men in the U.S. to be fathers again.
https://www.quora.com/What-would-gun-enthusiasts-in-the-US-suggest-be-done-to-prevent-all-the-school-shootings-and-30-000-gun-related-deaths-a-year-if-theyre-not-prepared-to-give-up-their-guns
Well, before I explain some potential solutions, allow me to establish some facts that I doubt you are aware of.
Take a GOOOOOOOOD look at that chart.
That is a chart of gun ownership to homicide rate. This study was done by the Small Arms Survey and when viewing the trend line drawn on this graph, it is clear that the greater quantity of firearms is possessed by the population, murders have a tendency to be lower.
However there is a much better correlation between crime and economic situation. Poorer nations tend to be more violent.
Now let's look at your gun deaths.
“Firearms were used in 19,392 suicides in the U.S. in 2010, constituting almost 62% of all gun deaths.”
Statistics on Gun Deaths & Injuries | Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence
Another fact this source admits is:
“Guns were used in 11,078 homicides in the U.S. in 2010, comprising almost 35% of all gun deaths, and over 68% of all homicides.”
Why does this matter? Because guns, obviously don't cause suicide. South Korea, a nation with few guns, has one of the worst suicide rates in the world.
So your 30,000 number is crap.
The suicides can be helped with better counseling and intervention programs such as red flag laws.
The number we need to be concerned with is the 11,000 gun deaths. But before we do that, let me just point out that 10,500 people are killed by drunk driving, roughly the same amount of damage done. Where is the left's outrage? Where are the thousands of people in the capital asking for restrictions on alcohol?
Hmmmm. I can't seem to find them.
I believe this is what you might call selective outrage. Speaking of selective outrage, did you know that 7,105 murders are committed with handguns compared to only 374 with rifles. That 374 is all rifles including the AR15. Now everybody is discussing how dangerous AR15s are but almost nobody mentions handguns nowadays. On top of that nobody mentions the 1,604 murders committed by knives or the 903 people killed by hands and feet even though both of these numbers completely dominate the number of “assault rifle” deaths.
In light of these facts, the reason why the NRA and myself do not support your self-stylized “common sense” gun reform is that there is no common sense in it. All of the laws that have been proposed don't even address the real issues. For crying out loud, in the past 25 years, the average kids killed in school shootings per year was about 10. Just 10 out of over 50,000,000 students. That is a 1 in 5,000,000 chance of being killed in a school shooting. The chance of being struck by lightning according to National Geographic is 1 in 700,000.
Do we need lightning control????
Even if the laws did address the actual problems and not fantasy, effectiveness of gun control is debatable. Pro-gun people love to point out Chicago as a gun control failure, to which leftists reply that the guns come from places with looser laws. Yet they fail to explain why the places of origin for the guns don't have high crime like Chicago. The fact is, armed assailants LOVE gun free zones. Over 90% of mass shootings occur in some form of gun free zone.
Now, for the solutions:
End gun free zones. Completely. Who are we fooling? They don't work. The only place that should be allowed to be gun free is a building like an airport or government building where it has its own security force and metal detectors.
Encourage gun safety and concealed carry handgun courses among all citizens, especially teachers.
End the “Promise” program and all things that work to that effect. They are a hindrance to law enforcement.
Encourage gun ownership for all Americans.
Make firearm safety (not shooting though) a mandatory course for all schools. This will help with accidents.
Have security guards and metal detectors in schools. Any teachers that wish to carry a concealed firearm in school must confirm this with school security and the local police department so that in the event of a shooting, the law enforcement would know that there may be armed people other than the shooter on the scene and who those people are. This will make friendly fire less likely.
Lastly, our gang violence is a cultural problem. The great majority of people associated with gangs come from single parent homes. This is because boys need a strong male companionship and role models. If they don't get it from a mature father, they will seek it with other boys their age. That, to a certain degree, is how gangs form; young men seeking a sense of belonging. We must do what we can to support families and get our men in the U.S. to be fathers again.
Hepar
New member
Take a GOOOOOOOOD look at that chart.
First big problem with the graph is that it's comparing the US to 2nd world countries.
Now, I'm not saying this to say that I am against any of your points. Just emphasizing my earlier point of not getting too blinded by something because it suits your personal narrative.
It's all about perspective...(and I am also not saying this graph is 100% accurate. Just something I dug up quickly)
<a data-flickr-embed="true" href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/54400273@N03/42569240531/in/dateposted-public/" title="homicide-vs-guns"><img src="https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1743/42569240531_49ab98f867_b.jpg" width="1024" height="890" alt="homicide-vs-guns"></a><script async src="//embedr.flickr.com/assets/client-code.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Link to graph:
Gun Deaths vs. Gun Ownership ? Inductio Ex Machina ? Mark Reid
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