I have the same type of discussion with a friend of mine about vitamins. He sells USANA brand and everything else is worthless per my buddy. I just shrug my shoulders and keep takin my Sam's club brand vitamins for 1/10 the price. Whatever turns you on. I would take his USANA vitamins if they were 10 times cheaper and I would use K&N filters if they were recommended by Toyota.
When to start using Synthetic Oil: From Toyota
- Thread starter thomasugenius
- Start date
vandert
New member
Of course not
Manufacters don't use them because of cost, however, almost all aftermarket performance people use them.
Ie. Renntec on Mercedes
NISMO on there performance varients
Ligenfelter on there Corvettes,
SVT on the Cobra R model
Hamman on BMW
& on and on. Also since the original topic was synthetic oils, all of the previously mentioned Performance minded shops use synthetic oils as orignial equipment as well.
Once again, they might not be for you, but they are for me, and other performance minded individuals.
T Out
Manufacters don't use them because of cost, however, almost all aftermarket performance people use them.
Ie. Renntec on Mercedes
NISMO on there performance varients
Ligenfelter on there Corvettes,
SVT on the Cobra R model
Hamman on BMW
& on and on. Also since the original topic was synthetic oils, all of the previously mentioned Performance minded shops use synthetic oils as orignial equipment as well.
Once again, they might not be for you, but they are for me, and other performance minded individuals.
T Out
I'll also add that you guys might want to look into Royal Purple synthetic oil.
I saw a demontration of R.P.'s abilities last year at a trade show. A rep. had a little demonstration stand, which basically consisted of an electrical motor driving a wheel, which had a levered weight dragging on it with hanging weights. (causing friction drag) At the bottom of the wheel was a cup, which held the lubrication fluid that would be provided as a lubricant between the turning wheel and the weighted lever arm that was dragging on it's circumference. They also had a ampmeter and adjustable weight set so you could monitor how much power was required for a given weight, or applied friction.
The first test they ran was with water only, nasty results, lots of drag and the motor drew a lot of current and eventually tripped itself off. (overcurrent protection) Mobil synthetic was next, and it looked pretty good. Still, took a good amount of power to the motor to run with the max. weights on it.
Then they ran the R.P. product. Unbelievable difference, it was drawing a fraction of the power. I was very impressed at this point. But then, they then put in a mixture of R.P. to water, about a 1 to 5 mixture, 80% water! And it still ran at a low current! The R.P. literally was able to bond itself to the metal surfaces and provide lubrication, even in strong concentrations of water.
GOOD STUFF. They primarily provide products for commerical and industrial applications, but have been making oils for automobile use as well. You can get their stuff online, or call up R.P. directly and order it from them. I'm not advertising for them, but they deserved to be mentioned along with Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec.
I saw a demontration of R.P.'s abilities last year at a trade show. A rep. had a little demonstration stand, which basically consisted of an electrical motor driving a wheel, which had a levered weight dragging on it with hanging weights. (causing friction drag) At the bottom of the wheel was a cup, which held the lubrication fluid that would be provided as a lubricant between the turning wheel and the weighted lever arm that was dragging on it's circumference. They also had a ampmeter and adjustable weight set so you could monitor how much power was required for a given weight, or applied friction.
The first test they ran was with water only, nasty results, lots of drag and the motor drew a lot of current and eventually tripped itself off. (overcurrent protection) Mobil synthetic was next, and it looked pretty good. Still, took a good amount of power to the motor to run with the max. weights on it.
Then they ran the R.P. product. Unbelievable difference, it was drawing a fraction of the power. I was very impressed at this point. But then, they then put in a mixture of R.P. to water, about a 1 to 5 mixture, 80% water! And it still ran at a low current! The R.P. literally was able to bond itself to the metal surfaces and provide lubrication, even in strong concentrations of water.
GOOD STUFF. They primarily provide products for commerical and industrial applications, but have been making oils for automobile use as well. You can get their stuff online, or call up R.P. directly and order it from them. I'm not advertising for them, but they deserved to be mentioned along with Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec.
Iowa4Runner
New member
Re: Of course not
Cost is not the reason. A manufacturer would gladly pay this trivial cost to get a boost in "Horsepower, torque, and acceleration." It sells vehicles. We've all seen countless car and truck commercials that brag about the vehicle's horsepower or torque. Besides, a manufacturer would probably pay less than half of retail prices and could justify a miniscule sticker price increase by saying the reusability of the new filer will make up for the price increase after only a few filter changes.
What kind of powertrain warranties do the above aftermarket companies offer on their vehicles?
vandert said:
Cost is not the reason. A manufacturer would gladly pay this trivial cost to get a boost in "Horsepower, torque, and acceleration." It sells vehicles. We've all seen countless car and truck commercials that brag about the vehicle's horsepower or torque. Besides, a manufacturer would probably pay less than half of retail prices and could justify a miniscule sticker price increase by saying the reusability of the new filer will make up for the price increase after only a few filter changes.
What kind of powertrain warranties do the above aftermarket companies offer on their vehicles?
vandert
New member
Usually they mirror
the original warrenty with the exception of the Lingenfelter due to it completely tearing the engines apart and building them up.
As for the rest, they are generally thought of as being endorsed by the manufacturer, they will usually not void the warenties. i'm not 100% on that statement though.
T
the original warrenty with the exception of the Lingenfelter due to it completely tearing the engines apart and building them up.
As for the rest, they are generally thought of as being endorsed by the manufacturer, they will usually not void the warenties. i'm not 100% on that statement though.
T
Gryphon
New member
This thread is really interesting; Myself, I have used Syntec once...never again. It worked ok during a very cold winter, but when it started to warm up, it would not build pressure. I switched back to dino oil and all was right again.
I am seeing a lot of mention of mileage intervals; if I change mine at 3k to 5k miles, that would be one change per year. I like changing it spring and fall myself. It seems to me this would help with temperatue changes (we see 90 commonly in the summer and hover around 0 to 20 f. in the winter).
I am thinking seriously of switching to synth myself. Mobile1 or Royal Purple. For us "dino-users" Lucas Oil has some very good "suppliments" IMHO. I have used it in old engines and liked the results. My main goal is to make my 220k v6 last a while longer, another year or three, untill I can have it rebuilt.
On the K&N discussions, I have one in my 4Runner, but am really thinking of changing it out. It would be interesting to see what happens with performance/mileage having never run a paper filter in this rig. I'll report back what happens in a while.
I am seeing a lot of mention of mileage intervals; if I change mine at 3k to 5k miles, that would be one change per year. I like changing it spring and fall myself. It seems to me this would help with temperatue changes (we see 90 commonly in the summer and hover around 0 to 20 f. in the winter).
I am thinking seriously of switching to synth myself. Mobile1 or Royal Purple. For us "dino-users" Lucas Oil has some very good "suppliments" IMHO. I have used it in old engines and liked the results. My main goal is to make my 220k v6 last a while longer, another year or three, untill I can have it rebuilt.
On the K&N discussions, I have one in my 4Runner, but am really thinking of changing it out. It would be interesting to see what happens with performance/mileage having never run a paper filter in this rig. I'll report back what happens in a while.
Iowa4Runner
New member
Re: Usually they mirror
The aftermarket companies are taking over responsibility for the factory warranty on these vehicles??? Wow. I can't imagine these warranties are very long.
K&N is a bit slippery in my opinion on the "will not void warranty" claim. They hang their hat on the fact that it's illegal for a manufacturer to require the use of a specific brand of air filter. They interpret that to say a manufacturer can't simply void a warranty just because a non-OEM product has been installed. But in the real world, should your car have problems caused by poor air filtration, you'll have a heck of a time getting it fixed under warranty if you bring your car in with a K&N installed. So ultimately a K&N will affect your warranty.
vandert said:
The aftermarket companies are taking over responsibility for the factory warranty on these vehicles??? Wow. I can't imagine these warranties are very long.
K&N is a bit slippery in my opinion on the "will not void warranty" claim. They hang their hat on the fact that it's illegal for a manufacturer to require the use of a specific brand of air filter. They interpret that to say a manufacturer can't simply void a warranty just because a non-OEM product has been installed. But in the real world, should your car have problems caused by poor air filtration, you'll have a heck of a time getting it fixed under warranty if you bring your car in with a K&N installed. So ultimately a K&N will affect your warranty.
Hank
New member
Has anyone heard of a PRE-LUBER? I truly believe that this will protect the engine & prolong the lifespan. It's an oil pump that is connected to the drain pan and circulates oil throughout the engine before you start up the engine. It is activated w/a push button. A client of mine has it on his Dodge Cummins Turbo Diesel. I'm planning on getting it even though I always use synthetic (Mobil1).
Koz
New member
ANY synthetic is far better (in many ways, explained below) then petroleum based oil, and overkill if you change it at petroleum based intervals. Therefore whichever brand you feel more comfortable with is better then ANY petroleum based oil.
Some interesting information about choosing motor oil;
Choosing the right oil - The oil companies provides “typical inspection data” to there distributors, and you get it from either. This data contains the actual physical and the common chemical properties of the oil. The most important properties to considering oil are, viscosity, viscosity index, flash point, pour point, percentage of sulfated ash, and percentage of zinc.
Grade/weight of oil – Viscosity (flowability) is how to measure the shear strength of a thin layer of oil. A bearing works by using a thin layer of oil not by the oil pressure generated by the pump. If you use too high a weight oil the layer will not form fully or may not get into the bearing at all. If you use too low a weight the layer will not give the bearing the proper protection. Bottom line, make sure you stay within the manufactures recommended ranges.
Multi viscosity oil is created by adding polymers (chemicals) to a base 5W, 10W, 20W. Think of a 20W – 50W as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight when hot. Keep the weight range as narrow as possible. Polymers are prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown.
Viscosity Index – The Number indicating the rate of change in viscosity within a given temperature range. The higher the number, the lower the change. The higher the number the better. Important for bearings. Approx. range 110 to 210
Flash Point – Temperature oil gives vapors that can ignite. The higher the flash point the better. Approx. range 350 to 510
Pour Point – 5 degrees F above the point chilled oil will not move in testing. The lower the pour point the better.
Approx. range -80 to -10
Percentage of Sulfated Ash – How much solid material is left when the oil burns. The lower the better. Approx. range .5 to 2
Percentage of Zinc - Amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. Zinc should be used when metal makes contact with metal. This should not occur. I try to stay away from any additives . High zinc content can cause deposits and plug fouling. If used in oil .11 would be the minimum effective percentage.
The pure synthetic oil is far superior to petroleum due to much higher temp. oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temp. flow rate. I recommend Amsoil and Mobil 1, testing and their data has proved to be among the best. I personally change the oil in my cars at 10K miles, 5K on my motorcycle, or 1 year, whichever comes first.
I have seen oil analysis reports on used synthetic oil with over 20K miles that show more protection left in it then petroleum based oil with 2K mile. The only problem is contamination. The longer the oil is used the more contaminants (combustion byproducts). These contaminants mix with moisture and create harmful acids. After reviewing this data I have come to the conclusion that one year is the point that i feel comfortable with leaving synthetic oil in a engine.
If your going to change your oil every 2 to 3K miles don't waste your money on synthetic oil. If you are going to keep your vehicle till it falls apart (like Me) I recommend using pure synthetic after your first change and following the manufactures recommended change intervals until the warranty runs out, then change it once a year or 10K miles whichever comes first.
By the way - You can mix synthetic and petroleum oil and can go back to either oil with no ill effects, Toyota's recommendation about not going back to petroleum oil really makes me wonder about all their recommendations.
Koz
Some interesting information about choosing motor oil;
Choosing the right oil - The oil companies provides “typical inspection data” to there distributors, and you get it from either. This data contains the actual physical and the common chemical properties of the oil. The most important properties to considering oil are, viscosity, viscosity index, flash point, pour point, percentage of sulfated ash, and percentage of zinc.
Grade/weight of oil – Viscosity (flowability) is how to measure the shear strength of a thin layer of oil. A bearing works by using a thin layer of oil not by the oil pressure generated by the pump. If you use too high a weight oil the layer will not form fully or may not get into the bearing at all. If you use too low a weight the layer will not give the bearing the proper protection. Bottom line, make sure you stay within the manufactures recommended ranges.
Multi viscosity oil is created by adding polymers (chemicals) to a base 5W, 10W, 20W. Think of a 20W – 50W as a 20 weight oil that will not thin more than a 50 weight when hot. Keep the weight range as narrow as possible. Polymers are prone to viscosity and thermal breakdown.
Viscosity Index – The Number indicating the rate of change in viscosity within a given temperature range. The higher the number, the lower the change. The higher the number the better. Important for bearings. Approx. range 110 to 210
Flash Point – Temperature oil gives vapors that can ignite. The higher the flash point the better. Approx. range 350 to 510
Pour Point – 5 degrees F above the point chilled oil will not move in testing. The lower the pour point the better.
Approx. range -80 to -10
Percentage of Sulfated Ash – How much solid material is left when the oil burns. The lower the better. Approx. range .5 to 2
Percentage of Zinc - Amount of zinc used as an extreme pressure, anti-wear additive. Zinc should be used when metal makes contact with metal. This should not occur. I try to stay away from any additives . High zinc content can cause deposits and plug fouling. If used in oil .11 would be the minimum effective percentage.
The pure synthetic oil is far superior to petroleum due to much higher temp. oxidation resistance, high film strength, very low tendency to form deposits, stable viscosity base, and low temp. flow rate. I recommend Amsoil and Mobil 1, testing and their data has proved to be among the best. I personally change the oil in my cars at 10K miles, 5K on my motorcycle, or 1 year, whichever comes first.
I have seen oil analysis reports on used synthetic oil with over 20K miles that show more protection left in it then petroleum based oil with 2K mile. The only problem is contamination. The longer the oil is used the more contaminants (combustion byproducts). These contaminants mix with moisture and create harmful acids. After reviewing this data I have come to the conclusion that one year is the point that i feel comfortable with leaving synthetic oil in a engine.
If your going to change your oil every 2 to 3K miles don't waste your money on synthetic oil. If you are going to keep your vehicle till it falls apart (like Me) I recommend using pure synthetic after your first change and following the manufactures recommended change intervals until the warranty runs out, then change it once a year or 10K miles whichever comes first.
By the way - You can mix synthetic and petroleum oil and can go back to either oil with no ill effects, Toyota's recommendation about not going back to petroleum oil really makes me wonder about all their recommendations.
Koz
Koz
New member
I'm not sure what you are referring to (bypass filters). There has been numerous tests on different filters, which show there is differences in the actual filter media and how effective each is. The rule of thumb is , You get what you pay for. Mobil 1, K & N, and Amsoil are top performers. Every filter has a bypass valve that allows the oil to bypass the filter media when the media becomes clogged and at very high RPMs. Bypass valve also opens when the oil viscosity is too high (oil thickened due to cold temperatures, or as a result of to long of an extended drain interval). For this reason is generally a really good idea to use the proper OEM specified multi-grade oil when using conventional motor oils in colder climates. If you use synthetic motor oil then this is not a concern all at as almost all brands pump at -40F.
The best oil filter rating is about 28 microns. Too small and the filter will clog and bypass. Too large and particles 30 microns and larger can pass thru.
When time comes to change the oil at 3000-5000 miles they may just be getting into their most effective part of their life cycle. Hence they never function optimally, or spent far less time in that range where small particle filtering is most effective. Therefore oil filters can still provide good protection with extended (10K miles)oil changes using synthetic oil.
Approx. 60% of engine wear is caused by cold starts. (The time it takes the oil to reach its vital lubricated areas, on cold start ups.) This time can be greatly shortened by using synthetic oil and the lowest OEM recommend viscosity, especially in winter/cold weather. As far as pre-lubers, I really don't think it is necessary, because of the reliability record of Toyota engines. But, it will reduce cold start wear.
Koz
The best oil filter rating is about 28 microns. Too small and the filter will clog and bypass. Too large and particles 30 microns and larger can pass thru.
When time comes to change the oil at 3000-5000 miles they may just be getting into their most effective part of their life cycle. Hence they never function optimally, or spent far less time in that range where small particle filtering is most effective. Therefore oil filters can still provide good protection with extended (10K miles)oil changes using synthetic oil.
Approx. 60% of engine wear is caused by cold starts. (The time it takes the oil to reach its vital lubricated areas, on cold start ups.) This time can be greatly shortened by using synthetic oil and the lowest OEM recommend viscosity, especially in winter/cold weather. As far as pre-lubers, I really don't think it is necessary, because of the reliability record of Toyota engines. But, it will reduce cold start wear.
Koz
boston_kevin
New member
any advice on oil additives?
There used to be some competing products for oil additives that remained in the engine as a thin coat after the engine was shut down. Products like Slick50 were the best known. Anybody else used these in their Runners? Slick50 has a synthetic additive for synthetic oil, but I haven't heard any results about this or others for quite some time.
There used to be some competing products for oil additives that remained in the engine as a thin coat after the engine was shut down. Products like Slick50 were the best known. Anybody else used these in their Runners? Slick50 has a synthetic additive for synthetic oil, but I haven't heard any results about this or others for quite some time.
Koz,
What I mean by bypass filter is like what is installed on the Tundra at this url:
http://www.newenglandsynthetics.com/TundraBypassInst.htm
I guess I should have described in more detail that I would use a full flow filter along with a bypass filter.
The hype goes, the bypass filters catche the 5 to 20 micron particles that get through any normal full flow filter. If I went with a bypass filter in the 4runner I would use Amsoil 5-30 100% synthetic:
http://www.amsoil.com/products/asl.html
I would change the oil every 10,000 miles and change both filters at the same time.
Overkill? Waste of money? Good protection?
What do you think?
Boxie
What I mean by bypass filter is like what is installed on the Tundra at this url:
http://www.newenglandsynthetics.com/TundraBypassInst.htm
I guess I should have described in more detail that I would use a full flow filter along with a bypass filter.
The hype goes, the bypass filters catche the 5 to 20 micron particles that get through any normal full flow filter. If I went with a bypass filter in the 4runner I would use Amsoil 5-30 100% synthetic:
http://www.amsoil.com/products/asl.html
I would change the oil every 10,000 miles and change both filters at the same time.
Overkill? Waste of money? Good protection?
What do you think?
Boxie
Coolhand
New member
Here's an interesting oil website...
Bob The Oil Guy
I think he has a link on there for a Blackstone Labs oil analysis kit... I'm coming up on my 10K after putting Mobile 1 in at 1.5K (and changing again at 5k) and I'm going to send in a sample for analysis.
J
Bob The Oil Guy
I think he has a link on there for a Blackstone Labs oil analysis kit... I'm coming up on my 10K after putting Mobile 1 in at 1.5K (and changing again at 5k) and I'm going to send in a sample for analysis.
J
Koz
New member
I personally use only Amsoil products, even in my motorcycle (0/40 motorcycle specific.)
As far as a bypass filter system being overkill, probably. Waste of money, absolutely NOT. Good protection, I think this system is as close to absolute filtration as you can get, at a reasonable price. What's most important sometimes is peace of mind. This system along with the BEST oil on the market (Amsoil) WILL provide the ultimate engine protection (oil related) for a extended, safe 25K mile change intervals.
Koz
As far as a bypass filter system being overkill, probably. Waste of money, absolutely NOT. Good protection, I think this system is as close to absolute filtration as you can get, at a reasonable price. What's most important sometimes is peace of mind. This system along with the BEST oil on the market (Amsoil) WILL provide the ultimate engine protection (oil related) for a extended, safe 25K mile change intervals.
Koz
Excellent recap, Peter78. This same oil discussion has occured on probably every auto forum. I stopped using Castrol Syntec because it is dino based. The bmw racers always said Red Line was the best true synthetic one could buy. I feel this is true. It was said the US military uses Red Line in their jet engines. It's just hard to obtain--used to have to mail order it for 6-8 bucks a quart. I use Mobil 1--usually around 4 bucks a quart. I like Amsoil and Royal Purple too.
The main factor is dirt, however. The consensus on a bmw forum was a synthetic ain't gonna help you here. You need additional, finer filters to extend the mileage of any oil. Like the truckers have; and some of them put loads of miles on between changes.
The main factor is dirt, however. The consensus on a bmw forum was a synthetic ain't gonna help you here. You need additional, finer filters to extend the mileage of any oil. Like the truckers have; and some of them put loads of miles on between changes.
