Why is there a factory rake on the 4Runner?

R

rgcary

New member
I've read over a few threads on this factory rake and 95% of 4Runner owners out there level their ride out because it "looks" better and say it drives better. My question is why did Toyota engineers make the 4Runner with a factory rake? There has to be a good reason for this... I'm a 4Runner owner and my X-REAS is starting to fail and I give Toyota engineers thumbs down on that design. So while I'm looking to purchase FJ 4x4 springs and Bilstein 5100's I'm starting to question the setup a little. Please help me put my doubts to rest... :-(

A few ideas that come to mind are highway travel, wind noise and aerodynamics. If you raise the front I would think you're changing the aerodynamics and could cause vehicle to use more gas and become less stable. Taller vehicles are also less stable when on driving highway speeds I would think? One guy said the running boards are not level now when raised?

The Bilstein 5100's set at .85 with FJ springs will level your ride from what I've read. If you leave the Bilstein's at standard adjustment and only install the FJ springs, which are still a little taller than stock 4Runners will it lift the front a little and just not level it at much? I assume that once you have the springs and Billie's installed to adjust them again they would need to be removed? So say I try the setup at standard height and want to move it to .85? I can't do that while it's installed, right? I'm paying for labor, so trying to not add on to much additional expense...

Another thing is when installing FJ springs in the rear it automatically raises the vehicle w/out any additional spacers from what I understand? So if you raise the rear with the FJ springs and leave the Billie's set to stock on the front with FJ springs with no height adjustment on the front I would think it would look funny?

I'm just trying to come up with the best way to do this setup, but either way it's less expensive than replacing the X-REAS at $2000 from Toyota. My 4Runner is a daily driver on highway mostly, all season SUV tires and family vacations. If you have time let me know your opinions on the best setup with the Billie 5100's and FJ springs without compromising the things I'm now questioning above.

I have a tendency to obsess about things. Can you tell? ;-)

Thank you for your time.
 
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The rake also has to do with the shape of the 4runner. If you look closely, you can see that the 4runner is wider at the front about where the front of the sunroof is/would be. So when leveled, it also gives the roof a downward slope toward the rear.

I haven't seen anyone NOT set the bilsteins to 0.85, but it wouldn't look funny. It just may keep the same rake as factory. I think most people get 3/4-1" from the FJ springs front and .25-.5 in the rear, so it will probably level just a bit but not completely.

There are pictures here of 4runners with most setups, I can't say for sure about the Bilsteins with 0", but there are pics of FJ springs with 1/4" and 1/2" spacers as well as the .85" setting.
 
I too have the same questions, but I'm just going to install them at .85 and then make changes if I don't like it. However I'm DIY'ing it, so the labor cost isn't a concern.

I have been noticing that compared to most other SUVs on the road at factory heights, the T4R appears to be unusually low in the front. I'm sure a small lift does affect some of the driving characteristics that the engineers built into it, but I suspect it's minimal. Two things come to mind:

1) The engineers live in a world of compromises in order to design a product that appeals to the masses, gov't regulations, etc. That's what the aftermarket is for and many times can help create a better product for the individual. I suspect that's the case with the FJ/Bilstein setup.

2) It's easy to rationalize anything to ourselves, especially when significant time and money investment is involved. I've seen threads where people say a 3" lift with AT tires and new shocks 'rides much better'... ok, sure.
 
gaterose said:
The rake also has to do with the shape of the 4runner. If you look closely, you can see that the 4runner is wider at the front about where the front of the sunroof is/would be. So when leveled, it also gives the roof a downward slope toward the rear.

I haven't seen anyone NOT set the bilsteins to 0.85, but it wouldn't look funny. It just may keep the same rake as factory. I think most people get 3/4-1" from the FJ springs front and .25-.5 in the rear, so it will probably level just a bit but not completely.

There are pictures here of 4runners with most setups, I can't say for sure about the Bilsteins with 0", but there are pics of FJ springs with 1/4" and 1/2" spacers as well as the .85" setting.
Click to expand...
Thanks gaterose. Yeah, I have a v6, so I'm guessing mine would sit a little higher in the front with FL springs. How much taller are FJ springs when compared to 4Runner springs? Is there currently any spacers used on a stock 4Runner suspension and if so should they be removed with the FJ spring install?
 
roadster-nh said:
I too have the same questions, but I'm just going to install them at .85 and then make changes if I don't like it. However I'm DIY'ing it, so the labor cost isn't a concern.

I have been noticing that compared to most other SUVs on the road at factory heights, the T4R appears to be unusually low in the front. I'm sure a small lift does affect some of the driving characteristics that the engineers built into it, but I suspect it's minimal. Two things come to mind:

1) The engineers live in a world of compromises in order to design a product that appeals to the masses, gov't regulations, etc. That's what the aftermarket is for and many times can help create a better product for the individual. I suspect that's the case with the FJ/Bilstein setup.

2) It's easy to rationalize anything to ourselves, especially when significant time and money investment is involved. I've seen threads where people say a 3" lift with AT tires and new shocks 'rides much better'... ok, sure.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Too bad we were not in the same area. We could make is a "weekend" project! :-)
 
It's the same reason all trucks and SUV's have rake. It's so the vehicle sits level when it's loaded down and drives and tracks properly when a trailer is attached. It also sits level when loaded so your head lights aren't blowing up the tree tops.
 
gaterose said:
The rake also has to do with the shape of the 4runner. If you look closely, you can see that the 4runner is wider at the front about where the front of the sunroof is/would be. So when leveled, it also gives the roof a downward slope toward the rear.

I haven't seen anyone NOT set the bilsteins to 0.85, but it wouldn't look funny. It just may keep the same rake as factory. I think most people get 3/4-1" from the FJ springs front and .25-.5 in the rear, so it will probably level just a bit but not completely.

There are pictures here of 4runners with most setups, I can't say for sure about the Bilsteins with 0", but there are pics of FJ springs with 1/4" and 1/2" spacers as well as the .85" setting.
Click to expand...

Have you actually measured the width of the truck? I have not but most trucks are more narrow in the front than the back. Looking at a vehicle from above it's quite apparent.
 
rgcary said:
Thanks gaterose. Yeah, I have a v6, so I'm guessing mine would sit a little higher in the front with FL springs. How much taller are FJ springs when compared to 4Runner springs? Is there currently any spacers used on a stock 4Runner suspension and if so should they be removed with the FJ spring install?
Click to expand...

Not sure, how much taller but they usually provide .5-.75" of lift after settling in. There are no stock spacers.

Also forgot to answer one of your earlier questions - with the 5100s you will have to remove the setup to adjust them unless you purchase the toytec adjustable conversion kit for $460.
 
SUV's are made for towing/ hauling. the rake is the keep you from bottoming-out when hauling heavy loads.
 
I suspect that Rake, even in a big boxy truck, can be important in aerodynamics and associated fuel economy and handling. I'd be surprised if this wasn't at least part of the manufacturer's calculus.

This is coming from a biologist, so consider the source.
 
rebelbowtie said:
Have you actually measured the width of the truck? I have not but most trucks are more narrow in the front than the back. Looking at a vehicle from above it's quite apparent.
Click to expand...

I actually have once... My grandfather wanted to compare it to my aunt's '10. But I didn't measure both ends or save the numbers. What you said may be, and probably is, true, I'm not sure.

Also I agree about the rear being higher for towing, forgot to mention that in my response earlier.
 
rebelbowtie said:
It's the same reason all trucks and SUV's have rake. It's so the vehicle sits level when it's loaded down and drives and tracks properly when a trailer is attached. It also sits level when loaded so your head lights aren't blowing up the tree tops.
Click to expand...
You post is making me lean more to keeping the Billie's at stock height, but still installing the FJ springs on front and rear. It would be great to find someone who has taken a picture of the stock springs vs the FJ springs when off of the vehicle. I think the rears are the same height, but fronts are a little taller. Either way they're stiffer from what I hear all around. I totally agree when you have heavier loads in the cargo area it levels the vehicle out because the front has the rake. Same goes with the trailer/boat pulling.

I wonder if this T4R forum has many people who use their SUV other than 4 wheeling? I'd like to hear from someone who does not have the factory rake and uses their SUV as a daily driver, grocery hauling, weekend project hauler and family road trips. I don't want my headlights spotting owls in the trees at night when cargo area is full with billie's at set a .85 and FJ springs installed. ;-)
 
rgcary said:
You post is making me lean more to keeping the Billie's at stock height, but still installing the FJ springs on front and rear. It would be great to find someone who has taken a picture of the stock springs vs the FJ springs when off of the vehicle. I think the rears are the same height, but fronts are a little taller. Either way they're stiffer from what I hear all around. I totally agree when you have heavier loads in the cargo area it levels the vehicle out because the front has the rake. Same goes with the trailer/boat pulling.

I wonder if this T4R forum has many people who use their SUV other than 4 wheeling? I'd like to hear from someone who does not have the factory rake and uses their SUV as a daily driver, grocery hauling, weekend project hauler and family road trips. I don't want my headlights spotting owls in the trees at night when cargo area is full with billie's at set a .85 and FJ springs installed. ;-)
Click to expand...

Well you are gaining lift from the FJ coils because of a higher spring rate, you may actually squat less than stock when loaded.
 
Update to thread.

rgcary said:
I've read over a few threads on this factory rake and 95% of 4Runner owners out there level their ride out because it "looks" better and say it drives better. My question is why did Toyota engineers make the 4Runner with a factory rake? There has to be a good reason for this... I'm a 4Runner owner and my X-REAS is starting to fail and I give Toyota engineers thumbs down on that design. So while I'm looking to purchase FJ 4x4 springs and Bilstein 5100's I'm starting to question the setup a little. Please help me put my doubts to rest... :-(

A few ideas that come to mind are highway travel, wind noise and aerodynamics. If you raise the front I would think you're changing the aerodynamics and could cause vehicle to use more gas and become less stable. Taller vehicles are also less stable when on driving highway speeds I would think? One guy said the running boards are not level now when raised?

The Bilstein 5100's set at .85 with FJ springs will level your ride from what I've read. If you leave the Bilstein's at standard adjustment and only install the FJ springs, which are still a little taller than stock 4Runners will it lift the front a little and just not level it at much? I assume that once you have the springs and Billie's installed to adjust them again they would need to be removed? So say I try the setup at standard height and want to move it to .85? I can't do that while it's installed, right? I'm paying for labor, so trying to not add on to much additional expense...

Another thing is when installing FJ springs in the rear it automatically raises the vehicle w/out any additional spacers from what I understand? So if you raise the rear with the FJ springs and leave the Billie's set to stock on the front with FJ springs with no height adjustment on the front I would think it would look funny?

I'm just trying to come up with the best way to do this setup, but either way it's less expensive than replacing the X-REAS at $2000 from Toyota. My 4Runner is a daily driver on highway mostly, all season SUV tires and family vacations. If you have time let me know your opinions on the best setup with the Billie 5100's and FJ springs without compromising the things I'm now questioning above.

I have a tendency to obsess about things. Can you tell? ;-)

Thank you for your time.
Click to expand...

I just pulled this.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/suspension/78803-compiled-fj-springs-lift-info-4th-gen.html

Is this true "any set from an 07-09 4x4 FJ will be a direct replacement for any 03-09 4runner, but those from 2010's require some slight modification. 2WD springs will fit as well, but will not yield the same results."

I'm about to purchase 2010 FJ 4x4 springs and thought that all springs would work from '07 - present. What mids are needed for 2010 4x4 springs if any?
 
The front end is lower for better aerodynamics (fuel economy) and better crash protection with the lower bumper.
 
I love my rake. But I'm a light tower not a mud thrower ;)

The tongue weight of my trailer pretty much levels it when attached.
 
rgcary said:
I just pulled this.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/suspension/78803-compiled-fj-springs-lift-info-4th-gen.html

Is this true "any set from an 07-09 4x4 FJ will be a direct replacement for any 03-09 4runner, but those from 2010's require some slight modification. 2WD springs will fit as well, but will not yield the same results."

I'm about to purchase 2010 FJ 4x4 springs and thought that all springs would work from '07 - present. What mids are needed for 2010 4x4 springs if any?
Click to expand...

No modification needed for the springs. Only the shocks from 2010+ need modification to make them work.
 
JDSupreme said:
I love my rake. But I'm a light tower not a mud thrower ;)

The tongue weight of my trailer pretty much levels it when attached.
Click to expand...
Exactly. I think this is what I'm going for. FJ 4x4 springs and new Bilstein 5100's set to standard height. One day if I want to level, then the option is there. This is a good repalcement to the X-REAS that I will be removing due to signs of failure before 2012 is out. Nice picture by the way... Makes me want to spend a day on the lake!
 
jimithing said:
No modification needed for the springs. Only the shocks from 2010+ need modification to make them work.
Click to expand...
Thanks Jimithing! Got a 2012 4x4 set that I'm closing deal on. They look brand new and I think have less than 3000 miles on them. Yipee!
 
rgcary said:
...FJ 4x4 springs and new Bilstein 5100's set to standard height. One day if I want to level, then the option is there. ...
Click to expand...

I was just looking at my neighbor's bone stock FJC 4x4... It indeed has a rake, but far less than my T4R. I would be happy with those dimensions if I could achieve them with the setup you've described.
 
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