Brakes need pumped twice to work correctly

buck_sez

New member
Hi All-

I did a rebuild of the front brakes on my 04 Limited this fall. One caliper was seized and both rotors were original so I opted to go all new components, rotors, calipers and pads.

Everything was removed and replaced without any issues. I went through the brake bleeding proceedure as outlined in other postings on this site. I do have to admit in the process of bleeding the brakes I feel I went to far toward the floor with the brake pedal.

With that said, after the job was complete, during the first drive it seemed as though the pedal was too soft. I delt with it for a few weeks and ultimately took it to the local Toyota dealership to have them look at it. They proceed to bleed the brakes again for me, and I assume they topped off any fluid as needed. It seemed to make a difference.

However, I notice lately, when the pedal is depressed to slow down or stop, only one caliper seems to grab. Pump it again and they both grab and almost throw me thru the windshield.
Is this still a case of air in the lines or is there a chance that something in the brake system is damaged?

Thanks for your time.

Andy
 
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Most likely you need to have your brakes bled again. Worst case bad master cylinder, but that isn't very likely.
 
I would say have them bleed the system again and then test drive it before you leave the dealer just to make sure. These systems can be finicky on bleed sometimes.
 
we've seen this quite a bit at the shop with new calipers. for whatever reason, theyre retracting further than they should, and require the pistons to be pumped out to the rotor each time.

it should get better with use, but if it bothers you enough, warranty them out. hopefully the new ones are better.

my thoughts are, its from sitting on the shelf too long before they get sold.
 
we've seen this quite a bit at the shop with new calipers. for whatever reason, theyre retracting further than they should, and require the pistons to be pumped out to the rotor each time.

it should get better with use, but if it bothers you enough, warranty them out. hopefully the new ones are better.

my thoughts are, its from sitting on the shelf too long before they get sold.

I wonder if it has to do with how they did the square cut seal?
 
Hi All-

I did a rebuild of the front brakes on my 04 Limited this fall. One caliper was seized and both rotors were original so I opted to go all new components, rotors, calipers and pads.

Everything was removed and replaced without any issues. I went through the brake bleeding proceedure as outlined in other postings on this site. I do have to admit in the process of bleeding the brakes I feel I went to far toward the floor with the brake pedal.

With that said, after the job was complete, during the first drive it seemed as though the pedal was too soft. I delt with it for a few weeks and ultimately took it to the local Toyota dealership to have them look at it. They proceed to bleed the brakes again for me, and I assume they topped off any fluid as needed. It seemed to make a difference.

However, I notice lately, when the pedal is depressed to slow down or stop, only one caliper seems to grab. Pump it again and they both grab and almost throw me thru the windshield.
Is this still a case of air in the lines or is there a chance that something in the brake system is damaged?

Thanks for your time.

Andy


I pretty much have the same issue...I decided on purchasing steel brake lines to help with the 'mushy feel' (not installed yet) but I have come to expect on hard braking; I will need to double pump to get superior stopping power. I will report my review after.

SO far when I purchased my truck in 2012 I did a full brake job, all new calipers, pads, and rear rotors were bad fronts were OK still. I flushed with DOT4... i still have to put my foot down (harder then I think should be necessary to achieve adequate braking force.)


Example: ok so here comes a stop sign I press the brake 1st time and it engages the (pump?/noise) I press the brake 3/4 the way to the floor...vehicle begins to slow but feels like its low pressure.

now its time to stop this thing! I release the brake and press a second time...now I have all the brake force in the UNIVERSE!!! with just 1/4 brake press I get appropriate amount of brake force and come to a stop very nicely with petal to spare.

this built-up brake force will last just a few minuets before I must double pump to built the back pressure again. the difference between the two is 1/4 petal depressed to 3/4 petal... large difference when its an emergency stop...
its not like I cannot GET the power from the first brake press but the fact that I must use considerable force to apply it... :crazy:

Thanks!
 
First, are you bleeding the brakes in the proper order?
I couldn't find the order for a 4th gen in my 2003 manual, but you start with the wheel farthest from the MC (as determined by brake line routing).
For example, on 1st & 2nd gens it's:
LR
RR
RF
LF
LSPV

And when you add in ABS, it complicates things. At the very least you need to bleed it with the engine On, then with engine Off, and again with engine On.

And when you add in VSC, it complicates things even more.

What buck_sez and talonjade describe sort of sound like the symptoms of MC with an internal leak. You press on the pedal and have some braking power, then the pedal sinks to the floor and you pump it again and get more braking power. But that MC is probably $800-1000 from the dealer, so I wouldn't jump into replacing it.
 
First, get the stealership to redo the work right this time and it shouldn't cost you anything more.
If you want to avoid the stealer in the first place, then you can DIY and only pay for brake fluid.

See the attached pages from the FSM.

There is nothing wrong with the Master Cylinder unless you have the dash brake light or ABS light on and have thrown a code.

I've been through this (with multiple caliper changes) and here is what I found works for me to eliminate the spongy pedal.
Ignore the content in the document about the tester.
It's an electric MC pump so start by bleeding with the ignition ON, engine off. The order is somewhere in the document.
Even with a good bleeding you need to finish with step 2a & b (or 5a). If you have previously done a good bleed then skip right to this step. Do the following with the ignition OFF. They say depress the pedal 40 times but here is where they are short on detail. Forty quick on/off cycles is a waste of time. Do 15 or 20 second cycles. Think of how slow air bubbles travel in brake fluid. Depress and hold the brake for 20 seconds, then let go and wait 20 seconds. Imitate the normal braking stroke as if driving. Repeat 40 times. The pedal may bottom out but hold it there. You will feel the pedal go solid at around 20 cycles but don't stop the cycles there. Do 40 cycles. Give yourself 30 minutes to do this.
Repeat as needed over several days and your brake feel will return.

Hope this helps.
 

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First, get the stealership to redo the work right this time and it shouldn't cost you anything more.
If you want to avoid the stealer in the first place, then you can DIY and only pay for brake fluid.

See the attached pages from the FSM.

There is nothing wrong with the Master Cylinder unless you have the dash brake light or ABS light on and have thrown a code.

I've been through this (with multiple caliper changes) and here is what I found works for me to eliminate the spongy pedal.
Ignore the content in the document about the tester.
It's an electric MC pump so start by bleeding with the ignition ON, engine off. The order is somewhere in the document.
Even with a good bleeding you need to finish with step 2a & b (or 5a). If you have previously done a good bleed then skip right to this step. Do the following with the ignition OFF. They say depress the pedal 40 times but here is where they are short on detail. Forty quick on/off cycles is a waste of time. Do 15 or 20 second cycles. Think of how slow air bubbles travel in brake fluid. Depress and hold the brake for 20 seconds, then let go and wait 20 seconds. Imitate the normal braking stroke as if driving. Repeat 40 times. The pedal may bottom out but hold it there. You will feel the pedal go solid at around 20 cycles but don't stop the cycles there. Do 40 cycles. Give yourself 30 minutes to do this.
Repeat as needed over several days and your brake feel will return.

Hope this helps.

I think you're slightly mistaken in the procedure for bleeding the unit. There's a lot of confusion when it comes to the Hydraboost unit, its an odd system most people don't recognize or think about. I'll go into brief detail about the unit itself first.

The Hydraboost unit is a hydraulically assisted and electronically controlled unit. It can be broken down into 3 major sections; the Master Cylinder portion (built like a regular MC), the ABS Module/Solenoid Pack (This contains the brains and electronic solenoids that regulate pressure and perform ABS/VSC Functions when commanded), and the Hydraulic Accumulator Pump & Tank.

The unit is hydraulically assisted instead of vacuum assisted like most traditional systems, unfortunately a large majority of these type of systems I have worked with have a very "spongy" feel to them; I don't know if it is intentional by the engineers or just a byproduct of the extra oomph the hydraulic assistance gives.

That said, the purpose of the "depress the pedal 40 times" is two fold. First its not to build up pressure in the system like you would on a normal system. It is done with the Key OFF to purposefully deplete the system of reserve hydraulic pressure in the accumulator tank. This is a test of the hydraulic assistance section of the Hydraboost unit, it should when the key is turned ON; proceed to run the accumulator pump and build up pressure in the system, this process should take roughly 30-40sec. If the pump only runs for a few seconds, this could indicate you have not depleted the pressure properly, or the pump is weakening. Conversely if the pump continues to run for more than a minute or so, this could indicate a failure and/or leak in the hydraulic system that is bleeding pressure and it is unable to build up proper pressure (this could either mean a reduction in braking assistance or a feel of a "spongy" pedal with little to no actual braking force applied.) The second reason is for the system to refill its reserve so it can start the bleeding process from a "100% hydraulic assisted" state rather than say only half full accumulator tank.

Another thing is when bleeding the Hydraboost unit, it is required that you either use a manual bleeder box (as detailed in the .pdf that was linked, this was used prior to the introduction of the TIS Techstream Factory Scantool) or a factory capable scantool. The reason for this is because the ABS/VSC Solenoid Pack/Module attached on the side of the unit bolts DIRECTLY into the master cylinder portion and controls pressure diverted from the unit. Unlike most vehicles, when using the scantool or manual bleeder box you don't have to "pump & hold" in fact, the scantool tells you to simply press the pedal down once and hold, undo the bleeder valve and let it bleed itself until the brake fluid stream reduces to a slow trickle. The unit will utilize the combination of the accumulator pump & ABS/VSC system to self-evacuate air bubbles trapped inside of the unit and lines.

One other thing to note, is that unlike conventional brake bleeding; where you begin bleeding from the furthest brake caliper from the MC. The bleeding procedure for the Hydraboost starts with the Driver's Front Caliper (IIRC, been a year since I last did it.) The scantool tells you what to do, also another thing of importance, if you are using a manual bleeder box; you must be careful to not cycle the solenoids for more than about 10sec with a 20sec cooldown. The reason for this is because unlike normal use, when using a manual bleeder box you are turning the solenoid on or off, not pulsing it as the ABS/VSC will do naturally.

I'll see if I can get you guys some newer technical documents in regards to the system itself when I get to work this weekend or maybe this upcoming week.

Post Note- It is possible to have a failing portion of the Hydraboost unit and it NOT set a code and/or light on the dash. I had to replace my own unit in my '04 due to a failed o-ring seal inside of the master cylinder unit itself, the symptoms were similar to what the OP is talking about. We determined it was the Hydraboost unit after multiple attempts of bleeding (i.e. 4-6 times in a row and then try again in a day or two), eventually we actually took hose clamps that you would use for say vacuum lines when doing EVAP work or Smog work and clamped off all 4 caliper feed lines and then tested the braking system, we verified that that the MC was at fault when it still had a soft pedal feel even with no where for the fluid to go.
 
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I had this problem when I had my calipers done at the dealership. Thankfully they did the job as normally I would do something like this myself but I was working so much overtime for so long I just couldn't do it and the overtime helped afford the dealership doing it. Anyway, I got it back and the pedal felt squishy, brought it back and they bled them again. I got it back again and it was a little better but I still had to pump it a second time to get it to the right feel. Brought it back AGAIN and this time they said they changed/flushed the old fluid out for new fluid and that seemed to finally work.

It was a pain but the dealership has always been really good to me so I won't hold it against them.
 
... There's a lot of confusion when it comes to the Hydraboost unit, its an odd system most people don't recognize or think about. I'll go into brief detail about the unit itself first...

Thanks for the insights and information.
I do understand it is a non-vacuum assisted system. My question is what specific solenoids are cycling during a manual bleed? All I hear is the boost pump working (or are there solenoids involved with the pump, is that what you mean?)

Just to recap, here is how I bleed the system:
Ignition ON, Engine OFF.
Manually bleed FL, FR, RL, RR. Fronts require individual open/close strokes. Rears use a continuous single stroke.
Ignition OFF.
Forty prolonged stroke cycles.
Ignition ON to cycle the pump to recharge the assist.
Possibly repeat the 40 cycles at a later date.

I always still had a spongy brake feel until I started doing the prolonged strokes. Works for me.
 
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WOW great stuff here guys!

Looks like I need to do another bleed with this new instruction.

also I am a bit confused on the 40 pumps... after the bleed you turn to "off" and then press pedal 40 times? then a few days later do it again... am I correct in my thinking here?:loco:
 
WOW great stuff here guys!

Looks like I need to do another bleed with this new instruction.

also I am a bit confused on the 40 pumps... after the bleed you turn to "off" and then press pedal 40 times? then a few days later do it again... am I correct in my thinking here?:loco:

The scenario you descibed earlier is similar to what I would experience after a caliper change.

Since you already did a recent bleed, try the 40 long pump cycles first, ignition OFF, without bleeding. See if that restores some brake feel.

The "few days later" depends on your results the first time. Give the air, if any, in the system time to settle. I'm thinking you could try again right away or later the same day if you want.

Obviously if you still have prolonged issues then it is potentially a bigger concern that requires professional advice, as Blackworks pointed out.
 
Thanks for the insights and information.
I do understand it is a non-vacuum assisted system. My question is what specific solenoids are cycling during a manual bleed? All I hear is the boost pump working (or are there solenoids involved with the pump, is that what you mean?)

Just to recap, here is how I bleed the system:
Ignition ON, Engine OFF.
Manually bleed FL, FR, RL, RR. Fronts require individual open/close strokes. Rears use a continuous single stroke.
Ignition OFF.
Forty prolonged stroke cycles.
Ignition ON to cycle the pump to recharge the assist.
Possibly repeat the 40 cycles at a later date.

I always still had a spongy brake feel until I started doing the prolonged strokes. Works for me.

That's the thing, when you do a manual bleed you aren't cycling any of the solenoids or those hydraulic circuits. So air can potentially hide out in those circuits and avoid being bled out. That's why Toyota wants you to utilize the bleeder box or scantool to cycle the ABS/VSC system to purge those circuits as well during the procedure. This is technically true of most ABS systems, if you remember the older GM trucks you had to use a Tech II scantool to bleed the system because the ABS could store air if not actuated. (This was an issue with Zombie Truck 1.0 AKA my '93 S10 Blazer.)

WOW great stuff here guys!

Looks like I need to do another bleed with this new instruction.

also I am a bit confused on the 40 pumps... after the bleed you turn to "off" and then press pedal 40 times? then a few days later do it again... am I correct in my thinking here?:loco:

The 40 pumps in regards to the procedure is done with the Key in the OFF position and is meant to use up all of the hydraulic assistance in the system. Similar to how on a regular vacuum assisted unit if you pump the brake a few times after turning the engine off you use up all the vacuum assist and get that unassisted braking feel. That's what you are trying to achieve with the 40 stroke for 2 reasons.

-To verify proper operation of the accumulator pump and reservoir when you turn the key on, so you don't have any leaks or pressure issues.
-To be able to start the system from a "100% full" assistance for the brake bleeding procedure.
 
I will do this before I leave work today and see if there in any change on the drive home.

I feel like I'm learning to bleed brakes for the first time with all of this new info...its amazing to me that given all of the special treatment needed to service an ABS system...nobody is doing it....no one has ever told me different then the "standard brake bleed procedure" RR, RL,FR, FL.

:sobbing:
 
First, get the stealership to redo the work right this time and it shouldn't cost you anything more.
If you want to avoid the stealer in the first place, then you can DIY and only pay for brake fluid.

See the attached pages from the FSM.

There is nothing wrong with the Master Cylinder unless you have the dash brake light or ABS light on and have thrown a code.

I've been through this (with multiple caliper changes) and here is what I found works for me to eliminate the spongy pedal.
Ignore the content in the document about the tester.
It's an electric MC pump so start by bleeding with the ignition ON, engine off. The order is somewhere in the document.
Even with a good bleeding you need to finish with step 2a & b (or 5a). If you have previously done a good bleed then skip right to this step. Do the following with the ignition OFF. They say depress the pedal 40 times but here is where they are short on detail. Forty quick on/off cycles is a waste of time. Do 15 or 20 second cycles. Think of how slow air bubbles travel in brake fluid. Depress and hold the brake for 20 seconds, then let go and wait 20 seconds. Imitate the normal braking stroke as if driving. Repeat 40 times. The pedal may bottom out but hold it there. You will feel the pedal go solid at around 20 cycles but don't stop the cycles there. Do 40 cycles. Give yourself 30 minutes to do this.
Repeat as needed over several days and your brake feel will return.

Hope this helps.

^^ This is great advice.

If you're still not satisfied, try this:

  1. Get a 15 foot length of clear tubing.
  2. Connect one end to the first bleed nipple.
  3. Feed the other end into the brake reservoir.
  4. Make sure the reservoir is full and you have extra brake fluid on hand.
  5. Bleed until fluid reaches the reservoir.
  6. Fill the reservoir to compensate for the fluid in the clear tube.
  7. Pump your heart out until all air bubbles disappear. No screwing/unscrewing necessary.
  8. Repeat for other nipples.

This method gets the tiniest bubbles out of the system. It has NEVER failed me.

Good luck, let us know how it all turned out.
 
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That is actually a very clever way to do that... I mean you'd have to flush the system with fresh fluid before you did that otherwise it'd be pointless. But that's actually a very smart idea, I'll have to give that a shot some time.
 
unless the system was ran dry, there is no air in the mc/abs system that needs bled out.

if the problem started after the new calipers, and they were bled out correctly, then the problem is the calipers.
and, by now..any air that may have been left in the calipers is gone.
and also, your description of the problem isnt a sign of air in the system. a soft pedal would be, but not a low pedal requiring 2 pumps.
 
Wow I just learned a lot more about bleeding brake system. Thank you. I had to replace both front calipers about a year ago and I do flushes yearly. Luckily on the brake fluid reservoir (or cap, don't remember) it says to "depress brake pedal 40 times with ignition off". Perhaps I got lucky by following that procedure but had been doing bleeding order traditionally, start furthest and work to closest (RR to FL). I had no issues (luckily) and still working great.

I just bought stainless speedbleeders so I am happy I came across this thread. Thanks again for great info!!!
 

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