Subaru AWD better than our Full time 4wd on ice and snow?

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Black4runner

New member
I have read several articles and posts but am still a bit confused.

Here is what I believe is true (correct me if I am wrong)

AWD (true awd): A 4 wheels get equal torque. When one wheel or axle slips, more power is shifted to the other axle with more grip. Doesn't have lo range or locking center differential.

Fulltime 4wd: Identical to AWD except has lo range and sometimes the option of locking differential which would turn this into a part time 4wd system. This is the 4wd on 4th gen 4runners. Even the V6 with "part time" 4wd is actually full time 4wd until center differential is locked.

Part time 4wd: Center differential is locked and torque is 50/50 front/rear.

Automatic 4wd (real time, etc): This is only 2wd except when the wheels start to slip, some torque is transferred to the other axcle but usually not much.

Unless the car has a limited slip, locking rear/front differential, or traction control, it isn't that hard to get stuck if one tire per axle is on a slippery surface such as ice.

I would think that our 4runner has the same full time 4wd as a highlander but according to this youtube video, the highlander is not nearly as good as the Subaru AWD in simulated icy conditions. We would have to lock our center differential to even compete with the Subaru.


YouTube - Subaru AWD Testing
 
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I'll be interested to see how this thread progresses because I've had similar concerns.

I recently went from a Jeep to my Tundra and while I like the truck in many way, it's not as sure-footed in the snow as my Jeep was. To be fair, the Jeep had LSD and the Tundra doesn't. Both are wearing identical tires, so it's not that.

Now we're looking for a T4R for my wife and she's wanting assurances that it'll be as snow-stable as her old Jeep was.
 
I would think that our 4runner has the same full time 4wd as a highlander but according to this youtube video, the highlander is not nearly as good as the Subaru AWD in simulated icy conditions. We would have to lock our center differential to even compete with the Subaru.
Click to expand...
No, the Highlander does not have the same 4wd has the 4Runner. The Highlander is FWD, and only sends traction to the rear after the front wheels have slipped. It is a far less capable system than the 4Runner.

I don't think there is any capability that a Forester has that isn't matched by the 4Runner.
 
I don't have time to watch the whole vid, but the engineer who replies sums it up, BS. I've had eleven AWD vehicles, including Audi, VW, Subaru, and Toyotas. The Subie STI has limited slip differentials and traction control, same as well-equipped 4Runners. Not my SR5, I have an open rear diff, but high-quality traction control should compensate well enough. I have a limited (Torsen) and locking center diff, which might give me the advantage over an STI. They're close enough that the biggest factor is going to be tires.
 
I think sometimes there are too many variables on paper to know what vehicle is better in the snow than another.

For example:

I had a 1996 Subaru Impreza AWD. It was better than any FWD car in the snow but even though I drove it for 200 miles in a snow storm without getting stuck, it wasn't as good as my 1994 GMC 4wd Jimmy in the snow.

My dad had a Land Rover Discovery Series II. This was better than my GMC Jimmy in the snow. I don't know the system it had but I know it had traction control and full time 4wd.

My dad has a 2003 Subaru H6 and he says it is much better in the snow than his Discovery was. It has traction control, AWD, and VDC (stability control).

The best was his Land Rover Defender 90. I think it was the baja mud tires and the weight that made it so good in the snow and ice. I drove in when there was a sheet of ice on the road and I could barely get the tires to spin. I got out of the truck and I saw tire marks imprinted in the ice.


I drove several late 80s Cherokees in the snow and they are pretty good. I would say better than my GMC Jimmy. I got one stuck though because it bottomed out in the snow. I had to shovel it for about 1 hour to get it out.
 
Timberline said:
I'll be interested to see how this thread progresses because I've had similar concerns.

I recently went from a Jeep to my Tundra and while I like the truck in many way, it's not as sure-footed in the snow as my Jeep was. To be fair, the Jeep had LSD and the Tundra doesn't. Both are wearing identical tires, so it's not that.

Now we're looking for a T4R for my wife and she's wanting assurances that it'll be as snow-stable as her old Jeep was.
Click to expand...

Also keep in mind that most pickups are not as good in the snow as some SUVs. This is because pickups have a light rear that doesn't get as much traction unless you load somthing in the bed to give it some weight.
 
Black4runner said:
Also keep in mind that most pickups are not as good in the snow as some SUVs. This is because pickups have a light rear that doesn't get as much traction unless you load somthing in the bed to give it some weight.
Click to expand...

True except that the F/R weight distribution on my Tundra is within one or two percentage points of the same number for our previous Grand Cherokee.

..surprised the hell out of me to learn that
 
chaz said:
the 2008+ highlander comes in FWD or AWD which splits power continuously 50/50 front & rear. read "whats the drivetrain" in this link. Bigger Highlander may still not be big enough - USATODAY.com i have one, & its very good in all weather conditions including snow.
Click to expand...

Did you watch the video? Test results don't lie.

Just joking. I find it hard to believe that video myself. I am sure your highlander performs very well. These days with the stability control, traction control, abs, etc you should be pretty well off in the bad weather.
 
LOL, yea, i sure wouldnt give up my 4runner for one, but it makes a good 2nd vec. people would be surprised what can be done with the 08. ive had it loaded with block for side jobs at times & even ran it at a site or 2 & its not half bad. to be honest, if it had a slight lift, stouter suspension, & a low 4wd , more folks might consider it. by the way, thats an 07 highlander, in 08 it changed & came out with the optional AWD, so if they want to compare things to the 08 subaru, they should of used an 08 AWD highlander as well, not an 07 FWD.
 
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"None of the Highlanders have a lockable Torsen limited slip center differential."
i agree, all i was saying is they should of used the 08 highlander with AWD instead of the 07 FWD to compare to the subaru.http://www.wheels.ca/article/30096 "quote from link" The Highlander's AWD system is a 50/50 torque split that automatically senses and reacts to traction needs, which is a good on-road system. But Toyota has also added a Hill-start Assist Control (HAC) and Downhill Assist Control (DAC), systems usually found on more rugged 4WD vehicles. end quote- it also has a snow button,which i assume would fair ok in the ice test, so this might of made a better showing against the forester , or the others for that matter, than the 07 FWD did. & im certainly not comparing it to the 4runner. i also think that when auto makers say 50/50 split, its probably not, but this is how toyota bills it.
 
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chaz said:
it also has a snow button, What does it do? Force a 2nd or 3rd gear take off?
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With these 'traction systems' I have noticed you can almost predict how well they'll by looking at the brakes. Vehicles with better brake power seem to have more effective systems in very slick situations. IIRC the '08 Highlander received brakes that are much more commensurate with the size and weight of the Highlander. The few earlier Highlanders I have been in can stop but it's nothing too impressive. I haven't been in a new Highlander but the couple of rental Camry's I've been in have very good brake power IMHO.


My guess is the '07 Highlander in the ramp test was simply beyond what the overly aggressive throttle intervention and the weak brakes could handle. I know the ATRAC (Nissan style) on my Titan was ok on the front but the combo of a really strong engine, 33's and marginally adequate rear brakes made the rear axles' ATRAC weak. (Fortunately it had a locker.) As the truck aged I played with brake pads. Just a change in brake pads was huge! I'll bet the Titan would have made the ramp after I changed the rear to sticky performance pads.


My guess is a T4R is equally effective or better than the Subi on the test. I would also add a set 35's might give the advantage to the Subi (unless you mod the T4R's brakes, even if it's just sticky pads). Everything is compromise....


There's no doubt Subi has the diff's, brakes and traction control systems well balanced.
 
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This is my first suv/truck and one of the reason's why I purchased the 4runner was because of the 4wheel drive, living in maine i would definitely see rough driving conditions. Coming from a front wheel drive VW GTI, my thought process was with the 4wheel drive and the heavier body of a 4runner would give me better control in snowy conditions.
But with the the snow we have received so far driving the 4runner has sort of been a let down. Going around any kind of turn with snow on the road, the 4runner seems to want to go into a sideway spin and loses control relatively easily, I would think with 4wheel drive this wouldn't happen so easily. I don't feel very confident driving it while going skiing on these curvy roads, but it still performs well.
Granted a set of better tires could make the difference and my driving style in the snow is rather aggressive. This could just be my high expectations that i was expecting to much of a suv without really knowing how they handle.
In the Gti with dedicated snow tires I would just bomb through the snow with it, but it was also a manual and a small car so it could have been the placebo effect of me feeling I was more in control compared to the 4runner.
 
ive only driven the vec. a few times since i didnt buy it for myself & have never used the "snow" button, but its used for accelerating & driving on slippery surfaces. i dont know exactly how this is accomplished, but i believe it would of helped in the ice test. theres also an S mode on the shifter that restricts the upper limit of the possible gear ranges, controls engine braking forces, & prevents unnecessary up shifting. hey, im not at all trying to put subaru down, ive always liked them, in fact, i wanted to get the 08 forester, but thought that step in height was a little lower, & the HL had alot more room, almost 5000 lb. tow rating & over 1800lb. load carrying rating, not to mention the 270 hp v6 thats now used in the 2010 4runner, oh, & the revos i put on help too.
 
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Teqeeler said:
Granted a set of better tires could make the difference and my driving style in the snow is rather aggressive. This could just be my high expectations that i was expecting to much of a suv without really knowing how they handle.
In the Gti with dedicated snow tires I would just bomb through the snow with it, but it was also a manual and a small car so it could have been the placebo effect of me feeling I was more in control compared to the 4runner.
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Everything starts with the tires. ABS, Traction control, etc can get the maximum traction available for a given tire, but no more. Dedicated snows are going to give you much better performance in snow than all-seasons, and some all-seasons are much better than others.
 
Teqeeler said:
This is my first suv/truck and one of the reason's why I purchased the 4runner was because of the 4wheel drive, living in maine i would definitely see rough driving conditions. Coming from a front wheel drive VW GTI, my thought process was with the 4wheel drive and the heavier body of a 4runner would give me better control in snowy conditions.
But with the the snow we have received so far driving the 4runner has sort of been a let down. Going around any kind of turn with snow on the road, the 4runner seems to want to go into a sideway spin and loses control relatively easily, I would think with 4wheel drive this wouldn't happen so easily. I don't feel very confident driving it while going skiing on these curvy roads, but it still performs well.
Granted a set of better tires could make the difference and my driving style in the snow is rather aggressive. This could just be my high expectations that i was expecting to much of a suv without really knowing how they handle.
In the Gti with dedicated snow tires I would just bomb through the snow with it, but it was also a manual and a small car so it could have been the placebo effect of me feeling I was more in control compared to the 4runner.
Click to expand...

Tires, tires, tires. :soapbox:

AWD or full time 4WD is great to get you moving but turning and stopping in bad weather have WAY more to do with the tires on the road then anything else. Bear in mind your 4Runner is much taller and heavier then your VW was. The physics of transitional handling are very different regardless of FWD vs 4WD.

I've been really impressed with my new-to-me '06 V8 with it's full-time 4WD and near-new Cooper Discoverer ATR's. If I horse it around a tight corner I can kick the rear out a bit but it never snaps or surprises and if I'm driving the right speed for conditions it's a non-issue entirely. I have to really try to get the stability control to step in.
 
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Teqeeler said:
This is my first suv/truck and one of the reason's why I purchased the 4runner was because of the 4wheel drive, living in maine i would definitely see rough driving conditions. Coming from a front wheel drive VW GTI, my thought process was with the 4wheel drive and the heavier body of a 4runner would give me better control in snowy conditions.
But with the the snow we have received so far driving the 4runner has sort of been a let down. Going around any kind of turn with snow on the road, the 4runner seems to want to go into a sideway spin and loses control relatively easily, I would think with 4wheel drive this wouldn't happen so easily. I don't feel very confident driving it while going skiing on these curvy roads, but it still performs well.
Granted a set of better tires could make the difference and my driving style in the snow is rather aggressive. This could just be my high expectations that i was expecting to much of a suv without really knowing how they handle.
In the Gti with dedicated snow tires I would just bomb through the snow with it, but it was also a manual and a small car so it could have been the placebo effect of me feeling I was more in control compared to the 4runner.
Click to expand...
It is all about tires. Real snow tires have much, much more traction than the all-season OEM tires on a 4Runner.
 
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