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Old 03-22-2019, 04:19 PM #16
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Sweet thread, can't wait to blow my engine too LOL.

Here is another similar thread with some dyno numbers you can use as a reference.

Stage 1 Transformation (Exhaust, Chip, Intake) - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum

It'll be interesting to see the dyno numbers once its all said and done. Few people have supercharged this motor and even fewer (if any) have tore it apart for NA mods from what I've seen. URD claims +100hp and +100tq at 5.5psi of boost, hard to beat that.
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Old 03-22-2019, 05:29 PM #17
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Sweet thread, can't wait to blow my engine too LOL.

Here is another similar thread with some dyno numbers you can use as a reference.

Stage 1 Transformation (Exhaust, Chip, Intake) - Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum

It'll be interesting to see the dyno numbers once its all said and done. Few people have supercharged this motor and even fewer (if any) have tore it apart for NA mods from what I've seen. URD claims +100hp and +100tq at 5.5psi of boost, hard to beat that.
Good benchmark. Thanks. Tuner and builder are saying we should be around 400, but we'll see. That would be a gain of 130hp at the crank, for ~roughly~ similar cost for URD supercharger when all is said and done. My gamble is it will be a stronger motor. Oh, and I didn't have much of a choice for supercharging with a blown engine. Just hoping the cams ship on time.
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Old 03-28-2019, 01:13 AM #18
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If and when you find the tuner and standalone, after that much effort, you might as well tinker around with meth injection for more power/safety margin.

Hope you don't put all this effort into research and just land back at a stock rebuild!
I'm starting to look into meth injection now that I've got most of the build issues sorted out. Got word today that the cams and springs are going to ship on time. Got my tuner connected with my builder, and they're stoked to see this project come together. Got a plan for parallel wiring a standalone ECU. So, now I'm starting to figure out all the peripherals, and methanol is top of the list--particularly as I decided to go forward with 10.1:1 compression.

For anyone not familiar with meth injection, I'll give you my rudimentary understanding of it. Methanol is mixed with water and injected into the air intake. The mixture cools the air and lowers air intake temperature, which lowers the risk of detonation during combustion, particularly when you advance timing. Since I'm adding street cams, increasing compression and advancing timing with an ECU, the chances of detonation are increased. Methanol will both increase the safety of pushing performance, and have the added benefit of allowing me to use normal gas, since the methanol also increases the octane in the air fuel mixture. Oh, and it can get me anywhere from 15 to 40 added hp, depending on how the motor is tuned.

My original goal was to build a reliable motor and get around 350hp naturally aspirated. It's looking like 400hp is definitely in range, more if I really want to push the envelope, which I'm probably not. Wherever the capacity of the motor winds up after we get it fully built, I'll dial it back to a max of 80%, and dial it back further for daily use. We'll see where that lands.

One of the items further down my list to research is either an android or PC ECU interface I can display on the stereo screen, to show gauges and change ecu settings. I've seen a few things in that realm, just need to zero in on a solution that will work.
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Old 03-29-2019, 07:39 PM #19
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Quick update:

Committed to the Kelford cams. Had a very disappointing call with WebCams--they sounded dismissive when I said I wanted cams for a 2uz, saying "well, they start at $2700", sounding like they just assumed that would get me off the phone. It did, but less about the price than the stand-off-ishness.

Found a tuner, which was a lot harder than I anticipated. Finally found him by looking up dealers for some of the standalone ECUs. He's never done a truck, but he's a Toyota specialist, and has done a lot of SC400s (1uz) and proved in just a few minutes of discussion that he really knows his stuff and is really excited about working with a machinist on a 4Runner motor. I'm not going to out him until we get down the road.

After some discussion back and forth, I think I'm convinced to go with increasing compression to 10.1:1. This will pretty much cut off the option to do much with boost, but the amount of grunt we'll get out of the motor is what I really want. It's going to mean more machining--smoothing out all the rough edges of the internals to maximize flow, and porting the heads properly. The good news is, with the Kelford shipping delay, we'll have more time to get the machining right.

Starting to worry a little bit about the next weakest link with the added horsepower. The tranny is getting worked, but I haven't done anything yet with the transfer case, shafts, diffs, etc. May just steel myself for some trial by fire close to home.
The transmission will need a little help with heat, us 3rd Gen folks have that issue when pushing a lot of power through the stock transmission. Do 4th gens have an external transmission cooler though or is it just routed through the radiator? I'm on transmission #2 since the PO had to replace it due to the supercharger burning the fluid.

I commend your build though. I just found out about Yota1 recently but already did my engine swap. Budget didn't allow doing anything crazy though but I would have loved to increase the bore and put some real-deal pistons in. However, I do give a word of caution about the camshafts: the reason why I had to replace the engine was I installed camshafts with shim spacers. Avoid those like the plague. And yes, you figured it out already but if you add any sort of lift the springs do not hold up and will go out of adjustment really quick so stiffer springs are must for any aftermarket camshaft that increases lift.

For smog, just keep the cams conservative without too much overlap and you'll be ok. However, the stock ECU may not play nice with all that extra power, you'll probably be looking at upgrading the injectors (fine in closed loop but might run crazy lean in open loop with stock injectors), which means you'll need a way to drive them properly so a piggyback will be in order, then a way to read AFR's so you'll need a wideband... catch my drift? Toyota ECUs are an absolute pain to tune though.

When do you expect your engine to be back up and running?
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Old 03-29-2019, 07:48 PM #20
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I'm starting to look into meth injection now that I've got most of the build issues sorted out. Got word today that the cams and springs are going to ship on time. Got my tuner connected with my builder, and they're stoked to see this project come together. Got a plan for parallel wiring a standalone ECU. So, now I'm starting to figure out all the peripherals, and methanol is top of the list--particularly as I decided to go forward with 10.1:1 compression.

For anyone not familiar with meth injection, I'll give you my rudimentary understanding of it. Methanol is mixed with water and injected into the air intake. The mixture cools the air and lowers air intake temperature, which lowers the risk of detonation during combustion, particularly when you advance timing. Since I'm adding street cams, increasing compression and advancing timing with an ECU, the chances of detonation are increased. Methanol will both increase the safety of pushing performance, and have the added benefit of allowing me to use normal gas, since the methanol also increases the octane in the air fuel mixture. Oh, and it can get me anywhere from 15 to 40 added hp, depending on how the motor is tuned.

My original goal was to build a reliable motor and get around 350hp naturally aspirated. It's looking like 400hp is definitely in range, more if I really want to push the envelope, which I'm probably not. Wherever the capacity of the motor winds up after we get it fully built, I'll dial it back to a max of 80%, and dial it back further for daily use. We'll see where that lands.

One of the items further down my list to research is either an android or PC ECU interface I can display on the stereo screen, to show gauges and change ecu settings. I've seen a few things in that realm, just need to zero in on a solution that will work.
I missed this post!

I run water/meth. Although cooling the intake charge is a nice bonus, you won't see much a benefit being N/A like us boosted folks will, especially since I can't install an intercooler so my intake charge is hot hot hot. Meth in itself makes no power, let me put that out there. Where you do make power is the ability to advance timing due to detonation suppression. More timing = more power, roughly 1% for each degree of timing you can advance.

I have not heard of anyone successfully wiring it a full standalone along with the stock ECU still connected. Replacing the stock ECU with a standalone will not pass smog but if you keep the stock ECU in and try and jump it with a standalone the stock ECU is going to try and de-tune everything you do, and quite successfully I might add. Most tuners won't touch Toyotas with a stock ECU for that reason. That's why I run a piggyback ECU, the AEM F/IC 6, which does not have the ability to advance timing, which is why water/meth makes no power for me.

However, if your tuner does find a way to get the standalone to work in series with the stock ECU and not de-tune it I would be very interested in working with them as well.
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Old 04-03-2019, 02:45 PM #21
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Yes, the 4th Gen 4runners have a transmission cooler, so hopefully heat won't be an issue.

The cams coming from Kelford will be ordered with a set of matching springs. We had a short conversation about that between the builder and Kelford. No extra machining necessary, they'll fit into the stock seats.

I've been in discussions with a tuner in New Zealand who has done a bunch of parallel ECU wirings, and is providing some info to my tuner in California. (He has a YouTube channel here: YouTube. Endlessly informative and entertaining.) The stock ECU will stay in place and run the transmission and emissions sensors, while the second ECU will be wired up behind the dash.

We're currently focused on a Link Xtreme ECU. Not cheap at about $1350, but according to the NZ tuner, it's the way to go to avoid lots of headaches and troubleshooting problems down the road. I'm hoping to be able to wire it up to a 2-din PC, or perhaps an android/bluetooth app so I can have in-dash monitoring and possibly map selection.

Definitely wondering about the injectors, but the verdict is out for the moment. Will take that as it comes. Saw an interesting thread recently about Rx8 injectors being swappable with much higher flow, but haven't seriously looked into that yet.

Hoping to see the cams/springs ship in the next two weeks. From there it will be 1-2 weeks to finish the build. Then I need to haul it back from Modesto, assemble everything and put it back in the truck. Then put the truck on a flatbed to Sac for the wiring and tuning. I'm hoping 4 weeks, but expecting more like 8, just being realistic. If I can have it back by the time the snow starts melting up in the Sierra Buttes, I'll be pretty happy.

Got a mountain of small issues to finish up. One dilemma I'm trying to figure out is the exhaust. I'm going with the Thorly short headers and URD MK3 exhaust. The headers don't come with cats, and I don't want to sacrifice my existing cats, as I'm half expecting I may need to throw the stock exhaust back on to pass smog--plus I don't think putting 14 year old cats on a new exhaust system is a great idea.

So I'm trying to figure out what cats to put on the headers, and whether I should put the new system on the motor when I reinstall it and hope for the best, or put the stock on to tune and smog and then put the headers on. I'd hate to put the headers on, not pass, then have to put the stock back on, pass smog, and do it all over again. But given everything I'm doing now, I guess it's not that big of a deal. Plus, it looks like if I keep all the heat shielding off the stock exhaust, it'll be a lot easier to get it on and off.
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Old 04-03-2019, 06:24 PM #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scribb View Post
Yes, the 4th Gen 4runners have a transmission cooler, so hopefully heat won't be an issue.

The cams coming from Kelford will be ordered with a set of matching springs. We had a short conversation about that between the builder and Kelford. No extra machining necessary, they'll fit into the stock seats.

I've been in discussions with a tuner in New Zealand who has done a bunch of parallel ECU wirings, and is providing some info to my tuner in California. (He has a YouTube channel here: YouTube. Endlessly informative and entertaining.) The stock ECU will stay in place and run the transmission and emissions sensors, while the second ECU will be wired up behind the dash.

We're currently focused on a Link Xtreme ECU. Not cheap at about $1350, but according to the NZ tuner, it's the way to go to avoid lots of headaches and troubleshooting problems down the road. I'm hoping to be able to wire it up to a 2-din PC, or perhaps an android/bluetooth app so I can have in-dash monitoring and possibly map selection.

Definitely wondering about the injectors, but the verdict is out for the moment. Will take that as it comes. Saw an interesting thread recently about Rx8 injectors being swappable with much higher flow, but haven't seriously looked into that yet.

Hoping to see the cams/springs ship in the next two weeks. From there it will be 1-2 weeks to finish the build. Then I need to haul it back from Modesto, assemble everything and put it back in the truck. Then put the truck on a flatbed to Sac for the wiring and tuning. I'm hoping 4 weeks, but expecting more like 8, just being realistic. If I can have it back by the time the snow starts melting up in the Sierra Buttes, I'll be pretty happy.

Got a mountain of small issues to finish up. One dilemma I'm trying to figure out is the exhaust. I'm going with the Thorly short headers and URD MK3 exhaust. The headers don't come with cats, and I don't want to sacrifice my existing cats, as I'm half expecting I may need to throw the stock exhaust back on to pass smog--plus I don't think putting 14 year old cats on a new exhaust system is a great idea.

So I'm trying to figure out what cats to put on the headers, and whether I should put the new system on the motor when I reinstall it and hope for the best, or put the stock on to tune and smog and then put the headers on. I'd hate to put the headers on, not pass, then have to put the stock back on, pass smog, and do it all over again. But given everything I'm doing now, I guess it's not that big of a deal. Plus, it looks like if I keep all the heat shielding off the stock exhaust, it'll be a lot easier to get it on and off.
Doug Thorley is about to come out with long tube headers, in case you haven't heard. Tri-Y and they bolt on to the factory y pipe section. No cats.

Calling all V8 owners that want a high flow Y-pipe!!! I can do it. Need your help!

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Old 04-03-2019, 06:43 PM #23
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Doug Thorley is about to come out with long tube headers, in case you haven't heard. Tri-Y and they bolt on to the factory y pipe section. No cats.
I did see that. With a good y pipe that would be ideal, but I'd have to remove it all every two years to smog. I'm trying to get to a system that needs minimal adjustment between the 2-year smog tests. I'm trying to figure out if I can get something set up with the headers and cats that will pass a lazy inspector. I know... probably a fools errand (cams, ecu, headers... sheesh) but I'm trying. Trying to keep things looking visually correct as much as possible.
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Old 04-03-2019, 06:50 PM #24
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I did see that. With a good y pipe that would be ideal, but I'd have to remove it all every two years to smog. I'm trying to get to a system that needs minimal adjustment between the 2-year smog tests. I'm trying to figure out if I can get something set up with the headers and cats that will pass a lazy inspector. I know... probably a fools errand (cams, ecu, headers... sheesh) but I'm trying. Trying to keep things looking visually correct as much as possible.
Got ya. Makes sense.

Just saw this GX470 on instagram too. He's planning internals + supercharger with his 4.7. Along with transmission upgrades. You seem to know what you're doing but if you wanted to check out what someone else is doing might be worthwhile to send him a message and get some details.

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Old 04-03-2019, 06:51 PM #25
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:31 PM #26
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Got ya. Makes sense.

Just saw this GX470 on instagram too. He's planning internals + supercharger with his 4.7. Along with transmission upgrades. You seem to know what you're doing but if you wanted to check out what someone else is doing might be worthwhile to send him a message and get some details.
Ha. I only ~seem~ like I know what I'm doing. I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the link.
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Old 04-03-2019, 07:34 PM #27
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Got ya. Makes sense.

Just saw this GX470 on instagram too. He's planning internals + supercharger with his 4.7. Along with transmission upgrades. You seem to know what you're doing but if you wanted to check out what someone else is doing might be worthwhile to send him a message and get some details.

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Damn. That's in another league. Love the long travel suspension.
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Old 04-05-2019, 12:32 PM #28
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Yes, the 4th Gen 4runners have a transmission cooler, so hopefully heat won't be an issue.

The cams coming from Kelford will be ordered with a set of matching springs. We had a short conversation about that between the builder and Kelford. No extra machining necessary, they'll fit into the stock seats.

I've been in discussions with a tuner in New Zealand who has done a bunch of parallel ECU wirings, and is providing some info to my tuner in California. (He has a YouTube channel here: YouTube. Endlessly informative and entertaining.) The stock ECU will stay in place and run the transmission and emissions sensors, while the second ECU will be wired up behind the dash.

We're currently focused on a Link Xtreme ECU. Not cheap at about $1350, but according to the NZ tuner, it's the way to go to avoid lots of headaches and troubleshooting problems down the road. I'm hoping to be able to wire it up to a 2-din PC, or perhaps an android/bluetooth app so I can have in-dash monitoring and possibly map selection.

Definitely wondering about the injectors, but the verdict is out for the moment. Will take that as it comes. Saw an interesting thread recently about Rx8 injectors being swappable with much higher flow, but haven't seriously looked into that yet.

Hoping to see the cams/springs ship in the next two weeks. From there it will be 1-2 weeks to finish the build. Then I need to haul it back from Modesto, assemble everything and put it back in the truck. Then put the truck on a flatbed to Sac for the wiring and tuning. I'm hoping 4 weeks, but expecting more like 8, just being realistic. If I can have it back by the time the snow starts melting up in the Sierra Buttes, I'll be pretty happy.

Got a mountain of small issues to finish up. One dilemma I'm trying to figure out is the exhaust. I'm going with the Thorly short headers and URD MK3 exhaust. The headers don't come with cats, and I don't want to sacrifice my existing cats, as I'm half expecting I may need to throw the stock exhaust back on to pass smog--plus I don't think putting 14 year old cats on a new exhaust system is a great idea.

So I'm trying to figure out what cats to put on the headers, and whether I should put the new system on the motor when I reinstall it and hope for the best, or put the stock on to tune and smog and then put the headers on. I'd hate to put the headers on, not pass, then have to put the stock back on, pass smog, and do it all over again. But given everything I'm doing now, I guess it's not that big of a deal. Plus, it looks like if I keep all the heat shielding off the stock exhaust, it'll be a lot easier to get it on and off.
Yeah swapping parts every 2 years isn't much fun. I have to swap intakes, the rest is hidden well enough or has CARB EO #'s so I pass.

I think you might be downplaying how picky smog shops are. There's a sticker under the hood that tells the tech how many oxygen sensors there are and how many cats there are. If any of those are missing or not 3-way ceramic converters it's an insta-fail. Also if your cams have too much valve overlap you might have trouble with tailpipe testing if your vehicle requires it. Then there's the issue of the Computer check with a standalone wired in. I just don't know if that's going to work.

I do have a "lazy smog shop" here in Sac if you run into issues. Could I ask who your tuner is in Sac though? That's right in my backyard. I'm looking for a local dyno to test out some parts & tunes to see what makes the most power but having trouble finding a place. They keep closing...

URD should have recommendations for injectors. They make lots of performance parts for all years of 4Runners and Gadget has a wealth of knowledge.
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Old 04-05-2019, 01:36 PM #29
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That's some crazy timing... I just got off the phone with Gadget, ordering my exhaust and headers. And yeah, he's definitely knowledgeable. Immediately told me what minor changes I'd need to make switching from the original block to a Sequoia block after I found out an oil gallery had been obliterated by the broken rod.

One issue I'm trying to navigate right now is the forward cats. I'm keeping my original manifolds and cats intact to switch if needed, and looking for a set to put on the Thorley headers. I can't justify buying new OEM manifolds just to cut off the cats, but Gadget is saying there aren't any good replacements. Since I'll be simming the cat feed to the ECU, that probably won't be a problem, but I am looking for replacement cats that aren't garbage. If anyone has any experience with replacement cats that have lasted a few years, I'd love to hear what you used.

I'll DM you the name of the tuner in Sac that I'm working with. I don't have an issue publicizing his work, but I want to get a little further down the road to see how things shake out before endorsing.

Regarding the standalone ECU and computer check, my newfound mentor in NZ has a lot of experience parallel wiring OEM and standalone ECUs and says it can be done. I guess we'll see how it works out.
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Old 04-13-2019, 12:46 PM #30
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Originally Posted by scribb View Post
One issue I'm trying to navigate right now is the forward cats. I'm keeping my original manifolds and cats intact to switch if needed, and looking for a set to put on the Thorley headers. I can't justify buying new OEM manifolds just to cut off the cats, but Gadget is saying there aren't any good replacements. Since I'll be simming the cat feed to the ECU, that probably won't be a problem, but I am looking for replacement cats that aren't garbage. If anyone has any experience with replacement cats that have lasted a few years, I'd love to hear what you used.
Curious about CA smog checks:
- If they see CARB EO labels under the hood, will they actually cross-reference the numbers to verify they're for the vehicle?
- Will there be an issue if replacement cats that were originally welded were converted to flanges instead?
- If you cover the headers with OEM heat shields, will the inspectors take the time to actuality snoop around to verify there are OEM/OEM type manifolds under there?

Here's my thinking...
- Doug Thorley and JBA have EO #s for their '05-'06 Tundra/Sequoia headers, use the labels/stickers. Unfortunately these headers aren't direct bolt-on to 4Runners.
- Use the 4Runner specific DT shorty headers, weld flanges to the header outlets and cat inlets. Install the cats come inspection time and use test pipes the rest of the time.
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