2004 GX470, what do I need to know?

[IanB]

When I said "all wheels permanently driven" What I meant was all wheels have the potential to be driven. And there is never a possibility of only two wheels having potential to be driven.

Can you provide a reputable source that would define the GX drive system as all wheel drive? The landcruiser and GX drive systems are nearly identical so why would different terms be used to describe each?

The owners manual simply uses the term "Four-wheel drive system."

So Toyota refers to the transfer case selector as the "Four Wheel Drive Control Lever", which I think we can both agree is not an accurate description, and you're providing this as documentation to support your position? This stuff is written for soccer moms, it's not technically accurate, end of story as far as I'm concerned. Marketers are not engineers.

To be clear, I consider the driveline in my Land Cruiser (HDJ81) to be full time AWD, with a locking center diff to achieve 4x4/4wd, as well as front and rear locking diffs to achieve "tank mode", lol. I consider the end results to be very similar to the GX470 drivetrain, which is also a full time AWD driveline with locking center diff to achieve 4x4. To say it is "Full Time 4wd" is not accurate, as the center diff is not always locked, nor would you want any vehicle to be in 4wd all the time as you'd have all sorts of clunking and tire skipping when you turn corners on paved, high traction surfaces, as the center diff would be locked and would not allow the front vs rear axles to turn at different rates.

The IFS 100/200 series Land Cruiser driveline is infact very similar to the GX's, and it is also incorrectly marketed as "Full Time 4wd". The manufacturer's printed marketing/reference materials are not a reliable source of CORRECT information in this case. I don't know of such a source, as who would care enough to put out documentation to this effect?

Try the test yourself, put your GX on jackstands and see if you and a couple of friends can stop 3 of the wheels by hand. If yes, then you do not have 4wd. Lock the center diff and try it again, you'll only be able to stop one tire on each axle, and will have 4wd at that point. You'll find that having the transfer case in low or high range does not change the results (assuming again that low range does not automatically lock the center diff, as it does on my Land Cruiser). That's science, not marketing, and at the end of the day, that's what decides what terminology is correct in this case. :cheers:

 

[2000SR5]

That sounds to me like a debate on the definition of "four wheel drive." I still say It is more accurate to describe the normal operating mode as 4H unlocked rather than AWD because all wheel drive vehicles don't generally have selectable transfer case gears.

Let's look at it this way when an AWD vehicle is in normal driving mode you wouldn't call that mode 4H because there is not an option of 4L, locked or unlocked... you'd just call it AWD but what if it did have a lockable diff/transfer case dose that vehicle then become 4WD when locked?

 

[IanB]

That sounds to me like a debate on the definition of "four wheel drive." I still say It is more accurate to describe the normal operating mode as 4H unlocked rather than AWD because all wheel drive vehicles don't generally have selectable transfer case gears.

Let's look at it this way when an AWD vehicle is in normal driving mode you wouldn't call that mode 4H because there is not an option of 4L, locked or unlocked... you'd just call it AWD but what if it did have a lockable diff/transfer case dose that vehicle then become 4WD when locked?

If the center diff/TC is locked providing 50/50 power split to F&R axles, I'd call that 4wd mode. Several AWD vehicles have this capability, although often electronically limited to 1st gear. We had an '05 Acura MDX that had this feature (VTM4 lock I think it was called), but it's most certainly an AWD vehicle under normal conditions.

4H/4L is a position on the transfer case that affects only the transfer case gearing in use, not related to what the center diff is currently doing, and not an indication of AWD vs. 4wd/4x4.

4wd/4x4 means 50/50 power split between front and rear axles to me, if you want to debate this definition then let me know, but I think it's pretty widely accepted.

 

[2000SR5]

So you'd say a GX running in 4L unlocked is in AWD mode? Or AWD low?

 

[IanB]

So you'd say a GX running in 4L unlocked is in AWD mode?

Ya, as far as the driveline is concerned it's in AWD mode with the TC in low range. TC gearing has no effect on where power is being directed.

 

[2000SR5]

What I'm hearing is the difference between 4WD and AWD (in your opinion) is wether or not the front and rear drive shafts are locked together and spinning at the same speed?

 

[IanB]

What I'm hearing is the difference between 4WD and AWD (in your opinion) is wether or not the front and rear drive shafts are locked together and spinning at the same speed?

Yes, if you can get a truck stuck with only one tire spinning, it's not in 4wd mode.

I'll again point out that the GX has some fancy electronic aids that muddy the water a bit (e-LSD center diff when unlocked, ATRAC), but that doesn't change what's going on behind the curtain.

 

[2000SR5]

So shouldn't a vehicle's drive train be defined by its maximum potential rather than the minimum? For example many AWD Subaru vehicles lack diff locks and never have the potential for anything beyond AWD so call it AWD. In contrast the GX has potential to operate as a 4X4 so call it Four Wheel Drive?

 

[IanB]

So shouldn't a vehicle's drive train be defined by its maximum potential rather than the minimum? For example many AWD Subaru vehicles lack diff locks and never have the potential for anything beyond AWD so call it AWD. In contrast the GX has potential to operate as a 4X4 so call it Four Wheel Drive?

The claim "Full Time 4wd" seems, on its face, to claim that the vehicle is always in 4wd, which it's not, although it is capable of same. You're again talking about marketing terms, and I'm talking about what is actually going on under the vehicle.

The Audi Quattro system uses essentially the exact same center diff as the GX470, and it's widely accepted as an AWD system, not 4wd.

 

[2000SR5]

My opinion is if it's got a selectable transfer case(high or low) it's 4WD. If not and all wheels still have potential for power it's AWD.

By your logic calling the GX AWD because that's how it operates under normal driving conditions, I should be calling my sequoia 2WD because that's the way it normally operates. It is an 06` 4WD.

 

[470SNC]

I too believe the GX should be considered as a full time 4WD system, for daily use you're in 4high while you can transfer to 4low for certain cases. It is not like an Audi AWD because an Audi doesnt have the same low range option.

 

[the great him]

My opinion is if it's got a selectable transfer case(high or low) it's 4WD. If not and all wheels still have potential for power it's AWD.

i think we have found the final answer here...

-and yes some Subarus, Volvos and Audis as well as many other makes have the ability to "lock the center diff" so do we cant call them AWD right, because there is something there that is "different" and not mold fitting to the "AWD standard" as defined by some marketing person. sure lets break down every single vehicle and its drive train and how it functions and lets segregate all of them and call them all different things -oh wait we already did that, its call giving each vehicle its own name so that way we do not confuse a land rover free lander with a lexus rx or a cadillac escalade with a ford expedition...

IanB is correct, in calling a GX an AWD based vehicle, it has other "enhancements" that set it apart from the others, still does not change the fact that it is AWD. thats like saying a member of the armed services is not a citizen, because he has a uniform and works for a company. no he is still a citizen, he just has other "enhancements" that allow him to work outside of that "realm"

 

[IanB]

My opinion is if it's got a selectable transfer case(high or low) it's 4WD. If not and all wheels still have potential for power it's AWD.

By your logic calling the GX AWD because that's how it operates under normal driving conditions, I should be calling my sequoia 2WD because that's the way it normally operates. It is an 06` 4WD.

I kind of see what you're saying. I would agree to referring to the GX470 as a 4x4 or 4wd, same as I would a '02 Chevy Silverado 4x4, as they are perfectly capable of operating in 4x4 mode from factory.

I would not, however, agree with calling it a "Full Time 4wd", as that's not accurate. Under normal conditions, it's operating in AWD mode with some electronic aids.

I don't see how the addition of a selectable transfer case makes any difference though. There are lots of commercial trucks with transfer cases for lower gearing to tow heavy loads and no 4x4...so what now?

 

[2000SR5]

So I should call my 4WD sequoia a 2WD because it normally runs in 2WD mode?

I can shift on the fly to 4H open diff (or AWD as you would call it) and run it in 4H as much as I want as, fast as I like. Making it operate essentially the same as the GX only difference is I can turn it off if I choose unlike the GX.

So is my sequoia part-time AWD?

 

[IanB]

So I should call my 4WD sequoia a 2WD because it normally runs in 2WD mode?

I can shift on the fly to 4H open diff (or AWD as you would call it) and run it in 4H as much as I want as, fast as I like. Making it operate essentially the same as the GX only difference is I can turn it off if I choose unlike the GX.

So is my sequoia part-time AWD?

I'm not really familiar with the hardware the Sequoia comes with, so maybe you can clarify a few things for me.

Normally operates in 2wd, that's clear enough. Is there a center diff, or just a transfer case? When you select 4H, are you getting 50/50 front/rear power distribution, or is the center diff actually open in this mode like an AWD vehicle? If the center diff is open in 4H, can you lock the center diff to achieve 4wd/4x4?

I suspect there's no center diff in this system, and 4H = 4x4, meaning you shouldn't be driving around on high traction surfaces in this mode due to the binding of the driveline as you turn and the axles can't go different speeds to compensate. If this is true, you have no AWD mode in your Sequoia.

 

[2000SR5]

You underestimate me, I wouldn't have mentioned driving around in 4H if I did not have the capability.

Yes, has center diff That remains unlocked until engaged, so I can drive around town in 4H open diff(AWD as you say)all day without harming the vehicle if I loose traction on loose surface I can engage the center diff lock.

All of the above is true for low range as well only I cannot shift to low range on the fly I must first stop and shift to neutral but the center diff may be in locked or unlocked position even in low range.

 

[IanB]

You underestimate me, I wouldn't have mentioned driving around in 4H if I did not have the capability.

Yes, has center diff That remains unlocked until engaged, so I can drive around town in 4H open diff(AWD as you say)all day without harming the vehicle if I loose traction on loose surface I can engage the center diff lock.

All of the above is true for low range as well only I cannot shift to low range on the fly I must first stop and shift to neutral but the center diff may be in locked or unlocked position even in low range.

Sounds like a similar setup to the 3rd gen 4Runner Ltd w/ the multimode transfercase, I had the same setup in my Hilux Surf, it's a good system. Allows you to operate in 2wd, AWD, 4wd in high and low range, very versatile.

So through your experience with this system, you're well versed in the difference between AWD and 4wd? You should have no issue recognizing that the GX470 when the center diff is unlocked, is in AWD and not 4wd?

 

[2000SR5]

Lol, no unfortunately the low range capability makes it 4WD. If it lacked a low range gear I could agree.

I could maybe say that in 4H unlocked both these vehicles, GX470 and Sequoia, are behaving similarly to AWD vehicles. I just think it is misleading to say the GX is All Wheel Drive.

So what did you call the Surf when referring to the drive system?

 

[IanB]

Hate to be "that guy" but as an owner of a 2008 GX470 I feel obligated to clarify.

I keep seeing the four wheel drive system referred to as "AWD," this is incorrect.

"All Wheel Drive" means all wheels permanently driven non-lockable "open" transfer case, non-selectable transfer case. In other words no low range.

"Full time four wheel drive" which is found on all GX, LX and Landcruiser models, utilizes a selectable transfer case that may be shifted into low range and generally will feature some kind of locking differential. Under normal conditions (4H) all four wheels are driven with differentials open allowing use on pavement. In the case of the GX if the center diff is locked the front and rear drive shafts will spin at the same speed, much like a conventional truck would behave in 4H. Low range in the GX is also open so either may be used on dry paved surfaces. The center diff should be locked only on loose surfaces and could cause binding/damage to vehicle if used on dry pavement.

There are significant differences between the two systems, it's worth noting that a conventional all wheel drive system will provide little or no advantage off-road over a two wheel drive vehicle. In contrast a Full time four wheel drive vehicle utilizes low range gears required to navigate extreme off road conditions.

End rant.

Lol, no unfortunately the low range capability makes it 4WD. If it lacked a low range gear I could agree.

I could maybe say that in 4H unlocked both these vehicles, GX470 and Sequoia, are behaving similarly to AWD vehicles. I just think it is misleading to say the GX is All Wheel Drive.

So what did you call the Surf when referring to the drive system?

I'd just like to revisit your 1st post in this thread, which started the whole debate. I've bolded the important bit. You can't call the driveline in the GX470 "Full Time 4wd", cause that's simply not accurate. It's capable of operating in 4wd, but only part of the time (when the center diff is locked). The rest of the time, it's in AWD.

As for your Sequioa, I'd argue that it's the ability to operate in 4x4 that makes it 4wd, not the fact it has a selectable transfer case. Why does having low/high range gearing matter at all? If you could explain this logic I'd be surprised.

As for my Surf, I'd call it a 4x4, but I wouldn't say it was "Full Time 4wd" just because it's capable of being in 4x4 mode, as it's in 2wd the majority of the time, or AWD during the winter. There is a distinction between what it is capable of, and how it's operating at any given time.

 

[470SNC]

this is the funniest most pointless discussion ever about semantics, doesnt help the OP very much with his initial intent of starting this thread however