2004 Limited timing belt question

[AppSt92]

I just bought a 2004 limited V8. It's in great shape and only has 59,000 miles. It has been suggested to me to have the timing belt, water pump etc replaced. I have called 2 dealerships in my area and the cost is from 850 - $950. Both dealers told me that they typically replace it at 90k. But since mine is 10 years old, I need to replace it ASAP or risk being stranded somewhere and ruining my engine. This is my 3rd 4runner, so I am aware of the timing belt issue.What do you guys think? Is it that pressing, or are these dealerships trying to push this on me?

 

[BlackWorksInc]

They are trying to push you, but they have decent cause for it. Rubber products degrade overtime, its their nature. Toyota determined (through testing and so on) that the Timing Belt loses significant enough strength, elasticity, and integrity after 9 years that it should be replaced regardless of mileage. Then again I would take that with a grain of salt, at the 9 year mark it doesn't just spontaneously degrade into dust, but personally I wouldn't feel too comfortable having a belt on that long. The timing belt is going to degrade similarly to a drive belt so keep that in mind.

 

[AppSt92]

Thanks for the response. I'll probably have it done soon, just didn't realize that I would be looking at such a major repair after I just bought a vehicle with 59,000 miles.

 

[Cisco Kid]

Thanks for the response. I'll probably have it done soon, just didn't realize that I would be looking at such a major repair after I just bought a vehicle with 59,000 miles.

I definitely feel for you on that one as the 2008 we purchased a month ago with 144,000 miles had never had the timing belt and water pump replaced. Fortunately I was able to do the job myself at less than half the cost of your estimate. It sucks, but it's much cheaper to have the belt and water pump replaced than it is to have a new engine installed.

 

[M1911]

The dealer's advice is spot on. If you check your owner's maintenance manual, you will see that it calls for the timing belt to be replaced at 90,000 miles or 72 months. Your 4Runner is about 10 years old. That is 120 months.

Have the timing belt and water pump replaced ASAP. If you think that service is expensive, ask them how much it would cost if the belt breaks.

 

[CXS]

I did my timing belt at 95K but didn't replace the water pump. I'm now at almost 170K w/o issues. Don't replace good parts, I see replacing the WP 'just because' along the line of changing oil every 3K miles.

 

[M1911]

I did my timing belt at 95K but didn't replace the water pump. I'm now at almost 170K w/o issues. Don't replace good parts, I see replacing the WP 'just because' along the line of changing oil every 3K miles.

I disagree.

To change the timing belt, you have to remove a number of parts. Once those parts are removed, you also have ready access to the water pump. If the water pump seizes, it will break the timing belt, likely destroying the engine.

The water pump isn't terribly expensive and the added labor over and above changing the timing belt isn't a great deal either.

You are already in there with the necessary parts removed, so you might as well change the water pump, tensioner, etc., while you are at it. For most people, they will only be doing this once or twice while they own their 4Runner.

I suppose it is a matter of what risk are you willing to take and how much are you willing to pay to avoid that risk.

 

[ASUMTNEER]

Another Boone 4Runner! Welcome to T4R. PM me if you are interested in having an ex Toyota certified tech do the job for you for waaaaaaayyyy less than the $850-$900 you were quoted. He does all my work and my families work, is very knowledgeable on Toyota's and is very honest. Maybe I'll see you around.

 

[CXS]

I disagree.

You're welcome to disagree! The dealership would agree with you too but I see no reason to replace perfectly good parts. I've gone another 75K with that old water pump which is all the verification I need.

 

[Dylan]

I did my timing belt at 95K but didn't replace the water pump. I'm now at almost 170K w/o issues. Don't replace good parts, I see replacing the WP 'just because' along the line of changing oil every 3K miles.

I agree with you on the notion of "if it aint broke, dont fix it", but the likelihood that something happens to the water pump before your next t-belt switch is done is high. My WP and t-belt were both changed for the first time at 144k, and my water pump was beginning to leak a bit....therefore it was changed.

Hypothetically: While your pump may be fine (and I hope it goes for another 95k), since all that stuff is exposed from the t-belt job you may as well do it then. Put it this way, a new pump is clearly less likely to fail than the one that's been in there for 95k miles, despite it showing no current signs of needing replacement. To keep with using old phrases, this might be a "kill two birds with one wrench" scenario.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

Remember also that the water pump pulley also support the timing belt and its load so it is a good idea to replace it to have fresh bearings even if the water pump is not leaking. If you ever have to replace the water pump later then all the work you did to replace the timing belt has to be done over. May as well just replace it now in my opinion. I did on mine.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

[MENTION=60018]CXS[/MENTION]

Something to add is that in my experience almost all of the timing belts I have seen break are due to bearings seizing up, bearings that are typically located around a leaking water pump. In the last decade Toyota seems to have a lot of leaking/weeping water pumps (according to them its a design feature... to an extent), so much so that its is more uncommon for me to see a water pump that is not leaking on a 4.7L by 90k than to see one that is.

The labor to replace the water pump when doing a timing belt is something like .5~1.0-ish (depending on the source of the flat rate time).

Now what happens if the water pump leaks say 20k after your timing belt service? Well, the shop is going to charge you the labor to do the timing belt & water pump AND also recommend a new timing belt and/or bearings due to coolant contamination and/or damage (which is actually probably not that inaccurate an assumption.) Which means now you're paying for a second timing belt job.

These are mainly why the water pump is often recommended as "preventative maintenance" because it is far more convenient for the technician and customer to replace it with the timing belt than it is to have it fail in between timing belt service intervals and/or possibly break. Not to mention that I wouldn't want to snap a timing belt on a 2UZ-FE because more than likely the engine will tank the valves into the pistons and now you're out of an engine on top of the water pump and belt.

Any time I recommend a timing belt I recommend a water pump based on my personal experience with the 2UZ-FE and other timing belt engines with timing belt run water pumps (common failure on older Hondas by the way) and explain to the customer WHY I am recommending what many consider a "non-maintenance item."

I'm not saying you're wrong, but rather explaining why I personally replace the water pump on my own vehicle at every timing belt interval and recommend to others to do the same. You're more than welcome to do what ever you want to your vehicle and to make your own judgement call on advice provided.

 

[dropspace]

BlackWorksInc

what's your opinion on an 04 V8 that currently has 35k miles on it. It's a southern (from NC) truck that looks babied.

I feel that the timing belt will need a swap, but i'm not sure the water pump is necessary at that low mileage as it's not time that kills the water pump. I would think i'll need another timing belt before the water pump would be an issue.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

BlackWorksInc

what's your opinion on an 04 V8 that currently has 35k miles on it. It's a southern (from NC) truck that looks babied.

I feel that the timing belt will need a swap, but i'm not sure the water pump is necessary at that low mileage as it's not time that kills the water pump. I would think i'll need another timing belt before the water pump would be an issue.

Hmm, that's a good question; the water pump isn't going to fail due to age, but the coolant will. The first coolant service is due at 10yr/100k and is then followed by 5yr/50k service interval. I also highly recommend you use Toyota SLLC (Super Long Life Coolant, aka "Toyota Pink Coolant") or do your research and find a coolant like Zerex Asian (currently the only coolant I have seen paperwork that meets all the same specifications that Toyota SLLC does) that meets ALL the specifications that SLLC has, otherwise you're likely to cause slow, but significant damage over the course of the vehicle's life.

As for the water pump, I would make a judgement call based on what we see when we tear the front of the engine down. If the pump looks squeaky clean I would most likely leave it alone unless you'd like to change it, if it shows signs of leaking I would recommend we go ahead and change it while the timing cover is apart before it gets worse.

Post Note-

Toyota SLLC (Super Long Life Coolant) aka "Toyota Pink" is an Ethylene-Glycol based Non-Silicate, Non-Amine, Non-Nitrate, Non-Borate coolant with HOATs (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology)

 

[CXS]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but rather explaining why I personally replace the water pump on my own vehicle at every timing belt interval and recommend to others to do the same. You're more than welcome to do what ever you want to your vehicle and to make your own judgement call on advice provided.

I'm aware of the points you make and I'm not recommending that everyone replace the timing belt and not the water pump just because I didn't.

Interesting side note is that I use the dealer for timing belt replacement because neither I or anyone I know wants to take it on. The tech is the one that first brought it up after telling me it wasn't leaking and asked if I wanted to replace it or not. I chose not to and am happy with my decision.

Another 30K and I suppose I'll replace the belt again and at around 200K I'm sure I'll add the peripherals as well.

I have had a timing belt fail in a Toyota at 238K miles. It was a Camry (non-interference) and my mechanic hung it on the wall of his shop as a memento of my lack of taking his advice. :dance:

If I end up being wrong on this I'll be sure to post it up and hold myself as an example of what not to do. :driving:

 

[dropspace]

We'll see how the pump looks and go from there. Appreciate your honest feedback and knowledge!

Hmm, that's a good question; the water pump isn't going to fail due to age, but the coolant will. The first coolant service is due at 10yr/100k and is then followed by 5yr/50k service interval. I also highly recommend you use Toyota SLLC (Super Long Life Coolant, aka "Toyota Pink Coolant") or do your research and find a coolant like Zerex Asian (currently the only coolant I have seen paperwork that meets all the same specifications that Toyota SLLC does) that meets ALL the specifications that SLLC has, otherwise you're likely to cause slow, but significant damage over the course of the vehicle's life.

As for the water pump, I would make a judgement call based on what we see when we tear the front of the engine down. If the pump looks squeaky clean I would most likely leave it alone unless you'd like to change it, if it shows signs of leaking I would recommend we go ahead and change it while the timing cover is apart before it gets worse.

Post Note-

Toyota SLLC (Super Long Life Coolant) aka "Toyota Pink" is an Ethylene-Glycol based Non-Silicate, Non-Amine, Non-Nitrate, Non-Borate coolant with HOATs (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology)

 

[rcdeppen]

That actually a good price I'm a service advisor for a local dealer. I get $1200.00 for that job ALL DAY LONG. We are located in north palm beach and a very affluent area but I don't budge on that price much. Sold one with to a customer just yesterday on an 05 with 78000 miles because he needed an alternator replaced.

 

[M1911]

You're welcome to disagree! The dealership would agree with you too but I see no reason to replace perfectly good parts. I've gone another 75K with that old water pump which is all the verification I need.

The problem is, I may not know it isn't perfectly good until it is too late. The water pump itself is what, $60? An extra hour of labor or so to change it?

Does the 4Runner water pump have a plastic impeller? One failure mode of some water pumps is that the impeller comes apart. The little pieces of that plastic impeller then get flushed into the engine block, plugging up the cooling passages. Yet another way to end up buying a new engine.

I'll spend an extra $150 or so every 90,000 miles not to worry about that.

I get about 15 mpg or so. So to put the cost of the water pump in perspective, in 90,000 miles, I'll burn about 6000 gallons of gas -- at $3.50/gallon, that is $21,000 in gas alone during that period. The extra $150 for the water pump is lost in the wash.

Well, your truck, your money.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

The problem is, I may not know it isn't perfectly good until it is too late. The water pump itself is what, $60? An extra hour of labor or so to change it?

Does the 4Runner water pump have a plastic impeller? One failure mode of some water pumps is that the impeller comes apart. The little pieces of that plastic impeller then get flushed into the engine block, plugging up the cooling passages. Yet another way to end up buying a new engine.

I'll spend an extra $150 or so every 90,000 miles not to worry about that.

As a point of comparison, I get about 15 mpg or so. Therefore, in 90,000 miles, I'll burn about 6000 gallons of gas. At $3.50/gallon, that is $21,000 in gas alone during that period. That extra $150 for the water pump is lost in the wash.

Well, your truck, your money.

It depends on the vehicle, some are stamped metal and others are plastic (the 2UZ-FE uses a Plastic Impeller while the 1GR-FE uses a Stamped Metal one.)

Though to be honest I have never seen a Toyota Plastic impeller fail like I have on some European vehicles (if I recall VW had a big issue with that in the past.)

 

[Ask10]

^^I just bought a water pump for a 2UZ from my Lexus dealer (only ones who had a 2UZ water pump) and it has a metal impeller. Not sure if they updated them or what, but that's what the dealer gave me.