2010 4runner Trail KDSS warning light/ noises

[Winstondvm]

I just hit 125,000 miles on my 2010 trail with KDSS (original owner). I have a 3" Toytech ultimate lift on it which I had installed at about 6,000 miles.

Just this last week as I was taking a cross country trip to New Mexico, my KDSS light came on and the 4runner seemed to wander in the lane at highway speeds more than normal.

When I slowed down in a city, the amount of noise coming from the Left front side when I hit any sized bump, manhole, etc, was startling. I arrived at my destination, which was about 8 miles down a dirt road, and could hear the clunk/thump every time I hit even the smallest rock/ dip in the road. Started it up the next day, light was off, but still making tons of noise from (apparently) the front left.
I could not replicate the noise with the 4runner stopped, and I could not replicate it jacked up at all. I didn't run it off road for the week, and headed back out to Texas on the highway.
My KDSS light went off halfway home, the 4runner started behaving more civilized, and the noise quieted down and has almost disappeared (still slightly louder than normal but seems to be behaving better.
I searched different threads but couldn't come up with anything that seemed to match. The noise was very loud and obvious

Any thoughts? I need to take it into the dealer but didn't know if anyone else had a similar experience.
Thanks!

 

[Winstondvm]

I first posted this thread prior to having the 4runner examined.
So-- after having a Lexus dealer evaluate the suspension (they have more KDSS on the GX line), the dealer told me that both my front and rear cylinders were leaking and the entire system would be replaced @ the cost of about $3050. Ouch. They wouldn't try to re-pressurize the system and told me it was an all or nothing deal with replacement.

They said they had never seen the KDSS system fail on any GX that they had serviced.

I have seen some threads on here that other people have had theirs re-pressurized but I can't seem to find a place to do it.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/186289-serious-kdss-problem-6.html

I always thought that the KDSS would be more durable than this. 125,000 miles and a replacement that is worth 1/5 of the vehicle.......

 

[wfo9]

I first posted this thread prior to having the 4runner examined.
So-- after having a Lexus dealer evaluate the suspension (they have more KDSS on the GX line), the dealer told me that both my front and rear cylinders were leaking and the entire system would be replaced @ the cost of about $3050. Ouch. They wouldn't try to re-pressurize the system and told me it was an all or nothing deal with replacement.

They said they had never seen the KDSS system fail on any GX that they had serviced.

I have seen some threads on here that other people have had theirs re-pressurized but I can't seem to find a place to do it.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/186289-serious-kdss-problem-6.html

I always thought that the KDSS would be more durable than this. 125,000 miles and a replacement that is worth 1/5 of the vehicle.......

Did you think this because the forum told you so? Sorry, had to ask.

I do know a Toyota tech in San Antonio that has repaired quite a few (and your issue is not that uncommon once the miles start to get up there). But it can still be very expensive depending on what went wrong. PM me if you want his info.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I can see why they aren't willing to repressurize the system, if it has a leak it's not gonna really fix it.

I mean it lasted 100k before a major issue, I would imagine most manufacturers have already deemed the vehicle obsolete/reached end of life by that point given planned obsolesce and such.

I hear the same concern brought up when people notice that their XREAS systems are leaking/failing in the 100~200k range. Given that typically most shocks begin to degrade in performance around the 50k mark, I would imagine 100k is probably the natural expiration for those. It's a premium option, which means it's gonna cost money to repair when it breaks; so while I'm a bit surprised both cylinders are leaking, it's not "premature" to me given how other "premium" options last. Same thing with BSM/LDA, those systems will eventually fail and will at the very least need to be re-calibrated or have parts replaced; when they're out of warranty you better believe the labor costs will be ridiculous. The process to "re-align" a BSM unit that's just out of horizontal axis alignment is a couple hours to set-up the precise location of the reflectors and use the scantool to calibrate them; assuming of course your bumper doesn't sag or you didn't hit something, at which point many expensive pieces need to be replaced.

As for LDA recalibration? That's even more fun, pre-collision warning? ect. All these things that have issues regularly and get covered under warranty will be expensive when they start having issues out of warranty.

Post Note-

Wasn't there a member who actually had their KDSS cylinders rebuilt for a rather affordable price? I could have sworn someone had a hydraulic shop fix theirs...

 

[Winstondvm]

I know it's a little tongue in cheek, but no-- this forum never told me it would last forever... However, given that it's a system put on the GX, Land Cruiser, and the 4runner and given the reputation for all these vehicles being long lived, I thought I could reasonably expect that it would last more than 100k miles. I would hate to think that there's about to be a complete generation of these vehicles with 3500$ repairs looming.

On that note, two of the three dealers I called all said "oh-- your XREAS has failed" and I had to tell them that it's not an xreas system...
As for the leak in the system-- I don't know exactly how much of that I believe. I know the fluid has to have gone somewhere, but how much?

Anyway [MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] I would love to have that mechanic's number. I'm just up the road in Austin. Thanks!

 

[Koddo]

Might be opening up a can of worms here, and I'm sure its been discussed to death in the lifted KDSS threads, but is possible at all that your lift hastened the failure of the KDSS system? Or it may just be that a lifted 4runner is offroaded more regularly than your average GX or Landcruiser and over 100k miles the additional offroad action places addditional wear on the system...

I'm in the same boat as you....my 2010 trail with KDSS has 88k miles, and I'm seriously considering a trade to a 2016/2017 SR5 or waiting for the 2018, before I have an KDSS issues.

 

[wfo9]

As much as people will try to make you think KDSS is common and been around forever...on the oh mightly LC... It's actually very rare in the big picture and is a specialized system with an unknown service life. LCs break just like all other trucks.

It started in the GX 470 (in 2004 I think), but finding one with it is very unusual. I'm sure it can last to 200k, but beyond that you would be very lucky. Suspension components just don't last that log. Just like XREAS... It takes a beating and will start to leak and fail over time. I would not buy a truck with 100+k miles on it without subtracting at least 3.5k in future repair costs. With XREAS you can at least go to a conventional shock with no issue. KDSS requires you to weld on tabs.... modify frame... to go to conventional swaybars. The only solution is to simply go Long Travel or SAS JK

 

[STX4Runner]

Wasn't there a member on here [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] or maybe [MENTION=77684]WarnerD9[/MENTION] (I know he's gone now with a Landcruiser) who had or was making a rigid link for KDSS that replaced the hydraulic piston, but was removable/unlockable for offroad use? If that was available I could totally see using that when the KDSS system fails.

 

[(none)]

I was thinking by your description they are charging you for the entire system...but no, I see each of the cylinders are around $1300 on the web, so probably even more at the dealer, plus a few hours in labor.

I guess it comes down to if it's worth having it. Can you take the hit that after 7 years and 125k miles you are going to have to drip a big chunk of change to get it back?

I'd see having 2 options:
1- replace the components, spend the money, drive happy again. I'd ask for the old cylinders back and talk to a local hydraulic shop about having them rebuilt. They probably just need seals. You can have a spare set and we'll all learn something. If nothing else, let me know if you want to send them to me. I don't have KDSS, but i'll see about rebuilding them and post findings for others to learn on.

2- get rid of the system. I don't believe anyone has done it yet, but you could just replace the 2 cylinders with solid mounts. They'd most likely have to be made by someone. Your on-road handling would be nice with the big sway bars, off road handing would greatly suffer though. Or just be like some of the other people here and completely remove the sway bars. Poor handling on road, but better off-road.

 

[Jetboy]

Wasn't there a member on here [MENTION=118321]Jetboy[/MENTION] or maybe [MENTION=77684]WarnerD9[/MENTION] (I know he's gone now with a Landcruiser) who had or was making a rigid link for KDSS that replaced the hydraulic piston, but was removable/unlockable for offroad use? If that was available I could totally see using that when the KDSS system fails.

Wasn't me on that one - but I would consider doing that. I was considering making an adjustable link for the passenger side of the system to adjust for lift and lean. I've since re-worked my suspension and gone back to coils from air springs and for whatever reason the lean has gone away completely. Go figure. Maybe the rear coils aren't the same? Seems like they should be.

I think a detatchable link to replace the KDSS cylinder could work really well as an alternative. There's more to KDSS than just allowing more travel. Going to uncoupled system loses a lot of the benefit of body control offroad, but does still give you good road manners and flex.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

125k on a vehicle that has been lifted almost its entire life? I'm not really sure how much more you could ask from the system. I also expect KDSS to be durable, but once you modify a vehicle all bets are off. I'm sure Toyota put hundreds of thousands of miles on KDSS equipped vehicles before releasing it, and very few of those were on a vehicle with a 3 inch lift.

 

[Winstondvm]

Yeah-- I've always had the "lift is the issue" in the back of my mind. The service manager at the Lexus dealership said it wasn't out of normal range on the KDSS with the lift but it was at the upper normal limits, for whatever that's worth. I'm just saying that 245s with no lift on a TE...
Anyway-- funny thing is that it's a 1700 option originally, and it costs 3500 to replace the system. I'll see if I can find someone to attempt to recharge it. Attempt...

 

[1engineer]

Yeah-- I've always had the "lift is the issue" in the back of my mind. The service manager at the Lexus dealership said it wasn't out of normal range on the KDSS with the lift but it was at the upper normal limits, for whatever that's worth. I'm just saying that 245s with no lift on a TE...
Anyway-- funny thing is that it's a 1700 option originally, and it costs 3500 to replace the system. I'll see if I can find someone to attempt to recharge it. Attempt...

Just a quick note:
KDSS has two things that can leak
1. Hydraulic fluid
2. Nitrogen

The hydraulic fluid can leak from the cylinder packing, hydraulic lines or the valves or accumulators.

The Nitrogen is self contained in the accumulators.

This is not like a tire, where you can pump it back up and it's all good. If you have a leak that leak has to be fixed before it with be right again.

As far as lifting being the cause? I truly don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

As far as only lasting 100K miles? Depends on how they were designed. It is really no big deal to design a shock to last 200K easily. Nobody would buy one ($$$$) but it would not be hard to do.

Lastly guys, contrary to popular belief, KDSS is RIGID at speeds above 12 mph. The cylinder does not move. It is in a static condition so all it has to do is hold the precharge pressure. Off road below 12 mph then it moves as designed. My point is it is NOT like a regular shock absorber.

 

[STX4Runner]

Wasn't me on that one - but I would consider doing that. I was considering making an adjustable link for the passenger side of the system to adjust for lift and lean. I've since re-worked my suspension and gone back to coils from air springs and for whatever reason the lean has gone away completely. Go figure. Maybe the rear coils aren't the same? Seems like they should be.

I think a detachable link to replace the KDSS cylinder could work really well as an alternative. There's more to KDSS than just allowing more travel. Going to uncoupled system loses a lot of the benefit of body control offroad, but does still give you good road manners and flex.

I wish I could find the thread, or realize I just made it up in my head and stop looking. I agree that ditching it for a totally uncoupled system would probably sacrifice some trail manners, but it would be the easiest way to keep the existing swaybar and road manners.

I didn't know you ditched your air springs. I thought that was a great idea. I'd love to be able to have an adjustable suspension.

 

[Yukon4Runner]

Just pulled the trigger on a 2016 TEP with KDSS. Definetly going to go with an extended warranty from the [MENTION=108754]gamester5[/MENTION] connection. If I have a KDSS failure after the extended warranty is up, maybe there will be a less expensive solution by then.