2017 LE electrical issue

[BettysNephew]

My LE has twice "gone dead" in a fashion. All power is lost when this happens, lights do not work, clock needs reset, keyless entry inoperative and I have to use the key to unlock door to even get in. As I said just like a battery cable has been removed. After a short time everything returns to normal for no obvious reason.

Is there a cutoff relay somewhere in the Toyota wiring that could cause such a catastrophic shut down? I could not find anything like that on the diagrams for older 4R's but thought perhaps it might be on newer models. I had a remote start installed by the store that does all of them for the dealership and he said there is nothing that would kill all power in their install.

I am getting suspicious of some sort of battery issue but when I checked the voltage on the battery while everything was dead it read 12.8v which would be within normal range. There seems to be no corrosion on battery posts that is apparent but I will be cleaning and coating with Noalox or similar compound.

Any other suggestions are appreciated as I volunteer for American Red Cross Disaster Action Team and cannot afford to have an unreliable vehicle.

Thanks

 

[elborikua]

Warranty? Have dealer look at it?

 

[philsey]

1. I'd be interested in what the dealer says about this.

2. Did you have the RS installed on your own, or did the installer do it through the dealer?

3. Regardless of what the RS installer said (I'd expect them to say that, btw), I'd give serious thought to having that RS uninstalled if you can't find another cause. Personally, I'd be very suspicious of this being the cause.

4. Also might want to look for rodent presence/damage.

 

[BettysNephew]

Already been there, they have no idea unless they catch it actually happening which has been rare, that's why I hoped one of the very knowledgeable techs that check in on this site knew about any device in the circuits that could kill everything. I really do not think there is such a relay anywhere on the truck but thought to ask here as I do not have access to later model wiring diagrams. Usual trained idiots on the service writer area that are just there to sell service just fluffed it off and tried to blame my remote starter (they contracted), ham radio and HID lights. These fools were extremely suspicious of the ground wire I ran to the hatch for my 2 meter antenna. The radio was shut off both times when the issue occurred.

 

[BettysNephew]

Thanks for the tips Philsey.

1. I'd be interested in what the dealer says about this.

Basically if it isn't dead when it's sitting in our service bay we don't know what to do.

2. Did you have the RS installed on your own, or did the installer do it through the dealer?

Contracted by dealer before delivery.

3. Regardless of what the RS installer said (I'd expect them to say that, btw), I'd give serious thought to having that RS uninstalled if you can't find another cause. Personally, I'd be very suspicious of this being the cause.

It's alway a possibility and I do not use it that often. May look into where the fuse is located first and get more drastic if problems get worse. It is rather nice to have though as it was below zeroF this morning.

4. Also might want to look for rodent presence/damage.

Again a possibility but have seen no activity at Decon station in garage or on sticky sheets other than a couple of bugs left from Fall.

 

[philsey]

1. I'd be interested in what the dealer says about this.

Basically if it isn't dead when it's sitting in our service bay we don't know what to do.
*to be fair, yours is the absolute worse kind of problem to find. And, unfortunately, with the ham, and the hids, you've given them ammo for fingerpointing.

2. Did you have the RS installed on your own, or did the installer do it through the dealer?

Contracted by dealer before delivery.

3. Regardless of what the RS installer said (I'd expect them to say that, btw), I'd give serious thought to having that RS uninstalled if you can't find another cause. Personally, I'd be very suspicious of this being the cause.

It's alway a possibility and I do not use it that often. May look into where the fuse is located first and get more drastic if problems get worse. It is rather nice to have though as it was below zeroF this morning.
* my rec in uninstalling it was strictly as a troubleshooting technique. If your problem stays, you know what it is not. Intermittent problems are THE worse. You gotta start somewhere man.

4. Also might want to look for rodent presence/damage.
* regardless, it's that time of the year, I'd give a good look around.

 

[BettysNephew]

I used to work in a dealership and understand the difficulty in finding intermittent electrical glitches. And that was long before the trucks became the electronic wonders they are now.

Forgot to mention the first time it happened was shortly after I got it in June and none of the "suspicious" items were installed at that time.

The radio can be isolated in a matter of minutes as could the HID's.

I just kind of got a giggle about them questioning the ground strap around the hinge on the rear hatch. Hinges suck at carrying ground for RF.

I will be cleaning the bat terms and cables just to be sure but nothing seemed out of line with them. If things get worse I will begin to isolate the questionable items.

Mainly I was just hoping some one could tell me there is no "master disconnect relay" that would totally kill all the power to everything. Even the headlamps or parking lamps would not come on when the switch was put to on not auto. This would tend to point toward a battery or cable issue.

 

[wcjeep]

Some vehicles also need the hood grounded to assist Ham radio.

I would suspect the battery.When the condition is right the battery can temporarily internally short. Temporary shorted lead acid battery is fun to isolate.

 

[delloro]

Some vehicles also need the hood grounded to assist Ham radio.

I would suspect the battery.When the condition is right the battery can temporarily internally short. Temporary shorted lead acid battery is fun to isolate.

He had 12.8v though.

 

[KP Texan]

Did you load test the battery too? Not that I’d expect you to really find an intermittent issue there, but to properly diagnose a battery issue it must be done.

 

[CoolMax]

Already been there, they have no idea unless they catch it actually happening which has been rare, that's why I hoped one of the very knowledgeable techs that check in on this site knew about any device in the circuits that could kill everything. I really do not think there is such a relay anywhere on the truck but thought to ask here as I do not have access to later model wiring diagrams. Usual trained idiots on the service writer area that are just there to sell service just fluffed it off and tried to blame my remote starter (they contracted), ham radio and HID lights. These fools were extremely suspicious of the ground wire I ran to the hatch for my 2 meter antenna. The radio was shut off both times when the issue occurred.

this guy is knowledgeable:
Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - View Profile: rigtec [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION]

 

[Toffees]

1. I'd be interested in what the dealer says about this.

Basically if it isn't dead when it's sitting in our service bay we don't know what to do.
*to be fair, yours is the absolute worse kind of problem to find. And, unfortunately, with the ham, and the hids, you've given them ammo for fingerpointing.

2. Did you have the RS installed on your own, or did the installer do it through the dealer?

Contracted by dealer before delivery.

3. Regardless of what the RS installer said (I'd expect them to say that, btw), I'd give serious thought to having that RS uninstalled if you can't find another cause. Personally, I'd be very suspicious of this being the cause.

It's alway a possibility and I do not use it that often. May look into where the fuse is located first and get more drastic if problems get worse. It is rather nice to have though as it was below zeroF this morning.
* my rec in uninstalling it was strictly as a troubleshooting technique. If your problem stays, you know what it is not. Intermittent problems are THE worse. You gotta start somewhere man.

4. Also might want to look for rodent presence/damage.
* regardless, it's that time of the year, I'd give a good look around.

2nd this approach. Until you can identify a single source for the issue, you're lost. Turn these off one at a time until you can identify the issue. I'm no electrical wizard, so I can't help you with possible causes, except that stock LE's don't do this unless there's a defect from the factory.

 

[Toffees]

Some vehicles also need the hood grounded to assist Ham radio.

I would suspect the battery.When the condition is right the battery can temporarily internally short. Temporary shorted lead acid battery is fun to isolate.

Here's a question from my ignorance: when high consumption aftermarket products are installed, do people put in breakers with the switches*, or are these "always on"?

Obviously, if you had a breaker it would be easy(-ier) to isolate the cause, but I presume that's not SOP.

*I guess I'm mixing terms here between switches, breakers, and fuses, but again I'm an ignoramus when it comes to electrical systems

 

[philsey]

Did you load test the battery too? Not that I’d expect you to really find an intermittent issue there, but to properly diagnose a battery issue it must be done.

+1 for this. In fact, this is the first place I'd suspect, or the primary hot/ground cabling somewhere. There aren't a lot of things that kill everything. Try the simple/obvious stuff first.

Let's page [MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] .... and [MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]

 

[BettysNephew]

Battery was load tested at dealership with 2 different testers. After they did the first test with no issues shown the service writer had the mechanic get the "Toyota" battery tester which also found no error. I thlenbecame a game of pointing at which of the foreign items was causing the issue even though the same thing had happened once before any were put on the truck, other than the remote start which was predelivery through the dealership at their approved installer. Come to think of it, that may be a clue pointing at the remote starter.

All of the suspicious items are fused so it will only take a few minutes to isolate if the problem reappears. The key word being if since it has only happened twice in about 6 months. I suppose the correct word is when not if.

 

[wcjeep]

He had 12.8v though.

As the lead plates shed, it's possible for two of the plates to short out from the shedding lead. Any kind of movement can open the circuit allowing normal battery operation. While the battery is jostled for the load test it would open the short.

 

[Hltoppr]

And FYI, the "battery cables" on these rigs are essentially one piece...with the entire main engine harness. Tough to find a fault if it's buried somewhere in that unit.

-H-

 

[flyrv9]

If your battery tested good and a load test was part of that testing; then I would pull the fuses on all those "suspect" add-ons and see what happens over time. If you get no failures, then add one item back at a time until the problem comes back. I would also check resistance to ground of your Negative and Positive battery cables with them both disconnected from the battery.

I would also check to see what (if any) interlocks might cause this. I'd be suspect of any thermal type interlocks. I don't know if the 4Runner has any, but the symptoms you describe of an electrically dead vehicle then coming back to life after a while made me think of a thermal interlock that (after time) cools and resets.

Also, when this happens, does the battery need to be recharged? I know you said you had 12.7v or something like that but surface voltage values don't mean a whole lot.

 

[rigtec]

Battery was load tested at dealership with 2 different testers. After they did the first test with no issues shown the service writer had the mechanic get the "Toyota" battery tester which also found no error. I thlenbecame a game of pointing at which of the foreign items was causing the issue even though the same thing had happened once before any were put on the truck, other than the remote start which was predelivery through the dealership at their approved installer. Come to think of it, that may be a clue pointing at the remote starter.

All of the suspicious items are fused so it will only take a few minutes to isolate if the problem reappears. The key word being if since it has only happened twice in about 6 months. I suppose the correct word is when not if.

Hi BettysNephew,

Believe it or not, this exact same scenario happened to me a couple of years ago. I was planning to take my niece to the mall for lunch so I couldn't afford to have the truck giving me any Taboo trouble that afternoon! But this 4R had no electrical power AT ALL... no start, no dome light, no horn, power locks, instrument cluster...etc! And then all of a sudden (say about 15 minutes later), the electrical power just came back like nothing had ever happened!

The truck only had about 10 to 12,000 miles on it at the time... it's still only got around 18,000 miles on it today. Well... the vehicle wasn't disabled long enough to run any diagnostics on it or I would written it up to save our other members from this mysterious anomaly, but there was no time to do that. But I believe it just had to do with the Main body ECU compu network losing power or locking up; much like any typical windows operating system freezing and needing a hard reboot. I've performed the reboot task many times on my truck because it acts up on occasion; wrt the audio system, power locks...even the tach and speed-o-dometer have shown their a$$ at one time or another.

The way that, that's done is, just disconnect the NEG battery cable in the evening when the truck won't need to go back out for the night for a minimum of four hours; this will eradicate all of the temporary files and history logs in it's memory and will also RESET all of the factory design protocols to their default parameters! So if you run into any weird functionality issues with your truck (doesn't matter how many miles are on the clock) perform a Master RESET of the Main body ECU compu network and that will likely resolve the trouble... and it's free to do! 'Best to you all and happy holidays',

rig