4Runner and the Environment (Global Warming)...your thoughts?

I personally am not concerned about global warming.

I could get into a bunch of reasons/beleifs why , but don't want to get into a pissin match .

As far as I'm concerned one of the direction's being taken like the Hybrid Hype is the biggest load of crap. Consumer's are sucking it up like crazy.

nuff said !
 
I hold 2 degrees in Biology (BS in Ecological Sciences, and a MS in Genetics). I had 2 professors in back to back classes that both had air-tight cases for their theories... First professor stated Global Warming was here and we were making it happen at an alarming rate. The second professor stated Global Cooling was here and we were directly responsible. Who was right? Oddly enough, one of my genetics professors partnered with a Archaelogical professor to perform scans of material from tens of thousands of years ago who showed proof that the earth cycles through warming and cooling periods, some of which were fairly rapid (i.e. over 50-100 years) some of which took longer. While I agree that humans are contributing to the global warming problem, I don't agree that immediately ceasing our current activities will change the climate. Climactic change is gradual and cumulative. If you compare the amount of time humans have been on the earth to the amount of time the earth has been around, you could think about the history of the earth spanning a time table the height of the 20 story Building. The history of humans on that same time table would be the equivalent of the thickness of a single piece of paper on top of that building.

And if you think humans cannot effect an environmental change, think of this... If we exterminated all of the bees in the world, all life on the planet would die within a year.

I think we can more directly affect climactic change by advancing new techologies for cleaner buring combustion and finding ways to restore the balance (instead of listening to the guy who invented the Internet).
 
I like the earlier analogy. We are "ants on the basketball." Many things we as people do may contribute to the cause of the extinction of the world as we know it. The industrial revolution may hasten the process of global warming. How does all the energy converted in the nuclear arms tests and detonations of the recent past compare to the natural energy expelled by volcanoes or earthquakes over the millenia?
How can I, as a single "ant", possibly delay the warming process? Let's take solar or wind power as examples. The short sighted view is that it is clean enrgy. In fact, it causes as much pollution to create these items (mining materials, steel and plastic manufacturing, fabricating, etc...) as any other turbines and infrastructure. I'm not saving anything or anybody. I may delay it slightly.
The way I see it, we are within natural cycles of ice ages. Guess what? No matter what we do the next one is coming!
If the end is coming, then so be it. In the mean time, you own a T4R so fill up and enjoy the ride.


Off topic,

Thai said:
P.S.: and yes, i am the founder and creator of this forum.
Thank you VERY much. This forum is very enjoyable.
LONG LIVE THE KING!
 
Global warming is a long term issue. It is like religon, some people believe one thing, others another. I think it is a problem.

But I'm far more concerend about other environmental problems affecting us now; polluted rivers, streams, oceans, smog, sewage, mecury in fish, over development etc. These things affect me everyday. I'd like to see them addressed first. And I don't think driving my 4Runner at 19 MPG is a big deal.
 
My 3 cents:

1c: How do I cope with driving a gas-swilling SUV? EASY - I try to ride my road bike to work most days. I have also studied bus routes but none work out right.

2c: A mid-1990s study out of Germany looked at the pollution lifecycle of a "standard sized" car (they generally drive smaller cars then we do). The tailpipe emmisions equated to 1/3 of the total pollution impact. The other 2/3s were roughly equally distributed between manufacturing and the final disposal of the vehicle (which would have been more expensive/higher impact in Europe than here).

3c: I'm not a fan of the hybrid/battery/even zero emmissions cars. WHAT did I just say?!?! yep - even if all cars produced zero emmissions, we have not addressed the impact of the automobile on us. To sum up, our car culture hurts us in quite a few different ways, wether or not we produce emmissoins while "living a car culture". How many people here realize that all the semi-trailers transporting goods are running between 1-5mpg? Again, just not efficient!

And why do I drive a 4Runner? The exclusive reason is to take my entire family to the cottage during the summer season. We used to take the train (a very efficient method of transport) but the service has been discontinued. If I did not have this requirement I'd have a nice fuel sipping wagon or hatchback of some sort. For off-roading, I prefer a mountain bike anyway.


J.
 
boston_kevin said:


And if you think humans cannot effect an environmental change, think of this... If we exterminated all of the bees in the world, all life on the planet would die within a year.



ok -THAT- might be a little extreme :)
 
ThatsRicci said:
ok -THAT- might be a little extreme :)

Actually it's true. Without the pollenation effects from the bees, fruit and vegatables would not be produced, most of the vegatation could not reproduce and would not be able to support the amount of life we have on this planet for long periods.

Another interesting fact is that without scavengers (such as flies) we would polute our world with waste and the off-gassing and waste products would make the planet inhabitable within 1-2 years.

But alas, I diverge from the topic...
 
Hmm let's see....2 stroke snowmobile, boat with no emission control, Vette with straight pipes.....I'd say a 4Runner would be the least of my worries.


Northof49 - environmental jackass that doesn't like bees anyways
 
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Ok...Boston kevin, you're scaring the crap out of me because i like to kill bees around my house!:p And i hate flies!:mad:

Kmvreter, thanks for your support. (your check is in the mail....):D
 
boston_kevin said:
Actually it's true. Without the pollenation effects from the bees, fruit and vegatables would not be produced, most of the vegatation could not reproduce and would not be able to support the amount of life we have on this planet for long periods.

Another interesting fact is that without scavengers (such as flies) we would polute our world with waste and the off-gassing and waste products would make the planet inhabitable within 1-2 years.

But alas, I diverge from the topic...


Wow...that is my cool fact for the day, if you could direct me to a web link for this, I would be most appreciative. A quick search gave me tons of non-related stuff.

This is a good topic. I am glad this site allows discussion that strays from site specific contect. I like the thoughts of the people that challenge facts/beliefs/morals, regardless of whether I believe/agree with them.
 
timf said:
Who made Thai KING ! Is he the almighty creator ? This is a good website but come on Thai. Are you just going to delete a good post like this one ? This person put time into this thread. Why even brag about you power to delete just do it. And send a PM to the thread starter

Your out of line tim. Maybe hang around here a little longer before getting so twisted.
 
Expat said:
This is a good topic. I am glad this site allows discussion that strays from site specific contect. I like the thoughts of the people that challenge facts/beliefs/morals, regardless of whether I believe/agree with them. [/B]

I agree. I am willing to hear/read/see just about anything then decide for myself.



J
 
boston_kevin said:
And if you think humans cannot effect an environmental change, think of this... If we exterminated all of the bees in the world, all life on the planet would die within a year.

And how do you propose we exterminate all the bees in the world? Hell, we can't even stop the Africanized honey bees from migrating into our country. Man can and does affect the world he lives in, but everything in nature has a tendency to equalize itself and find a statis that is sustainable. We may be able to make certain species go extinct, but I doubt all the nucs in the world could exterminate every bee in the world just as I doubt we'll destroy the planet with greenhouse gases. We may or may not be changing it, but it will be here as will man either way.
 
N8G and others,

I agree that nature will find a "statis that is sustainable" and eventually equalize, but the problem with this statement is that this new "equilibrium" may not be so human-friendly. I also agree with your belief that man most likely won't go extinct, however rising sea-levels, rising ocean temperatures, increasingly violent storms, etc. will inevitably kill large numbers of people or strip them of their homes.

In any case, I believe the issue is not human extinction, nor nature finding an equilibrium, but rather humans learning to co-exist with nature. With our smog, mass deforestation, exponential population growth, etc. we are becoming "a force of nature" (a quote from the movie). We can't expect nature to always neutralize everything and anything we throw at it. There is a limit to how much smog and trash nature can handle and I believe we are reaching that limit. Being the force that we are, I believe we must take steps to cooperate with nature.

Humans have always had a tendancy to look at nature as a resource to be used, exploited, and controlled..and I understand to some extent, we must use nature to survive. But eventually, every resource runs out. If nature "runs out" we will die. It's not the same as oil running out or coal running out since there are alternatives. The problem is, there is no alternative to nature, to earth. We must change our perspective of nature as a resource.


Let me explain...
Now, this may be getting a little too fundamental or philisophical, but I believe it's important to notice (if you haven't already). Humans are an anomoly of nature. All other animals on earth are limitted to their specific habitat since they lack the innovation and the ability to adapt (without evolution). Humans are not limitted. If there is no food in a certain area, we can devise ways to grow food or transport food. If its too hot, we have AC. If there is a shortage of anything, we can find ways to increase the supply or find replacements. Nature will never and can never "adapt" to a species that has no limits and continuously grows. Since we cannot live without nature, we must take steps to find an equilibrium with nature. Because humans are an anomoly, this equilibrium will not happen naturally. The only way to find true equilibrium is if we go extinct, or if we start to respect nature and reflect that respect in action.

Even if global warming is a "theory", we must understand that for anything to be a theory, it must be supported by facts (the theory of evolution, for example). Any theory that threatens earth should not be considered lightly, even if it is "just" a theory. The risk is too great. We only have one earth. Sadly, we will probably just keep living our normal everyday lives anyways.

P.S. in response to earlier posts saying that global warming is all a cyclical: Is it just coincidence that at the current rate, this cycle will be the shortest and hottest cycle in earth's history? Maybe it is coincidence, maybe it isn't, but it sure does not make me feel good.
 
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RockyRoad said:
N8G and others,

I agree that nature will find a "statis that is sustainable" and eventually equalize, but the problem with this statement is that this new "equilibrium" may not be so human-friendly. I also agree with your belief that man most likely won't go extinct, however rising sea-levels, rising ocean temperatures, increasingly violent storms, etc. will inevitably kill large numbers of people or strip them of their homes.

Did you know that the sea levels have been rising for thousands of years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Post-Glacial_Sea_Level.png). So why would it rising the last couple hundred of years be sooooo suprising? If I changed the numbers of that graph to Hundreds of Years Ago, then it is a lot more dramatic. But when looking at how long the Earth has been around and seeing how 400 years is very young, then it makes me pause.

Would you be suprised to learn that increasing water temperature has an effect of lowering the rate at which the sea level rises? If so read this http://www.nationalcenter.org/GlobalWarmingSEPP797.html

Isn't mother nature killing us equalizing things? LOL.


In any case, I believe the issue is not human extinction, nor nature finding an equilibrium, but rather humans learning to co-exist with nature. With our smog, mass deforestation, exponential population growth, etc. we are becoming "a force of nature" (a quote from the movie). We can't expect nature to always neutralize everything and anything we throw at it. There is a limit to how much smog and trash nature can handle and I believe we are reaching that limit. Being the force that we are, I believe we must take steps to cooperate with nature.

Humans have always had a tendancy to look at nature as a resource to be used, exploited, and controlled..and I understand to some extent, we must use nature to survive. But eventually, every resource runs out. If nature "runs out" we will die. It's not the same as oil running out or coal running out since there are alternatives. The problem is, there is no alternative to nature, to earth. We must change our perspective of nature as a resource.


Let me explain...
Now, this may be getting a little too fundamental or philisophical, but I believe it's important to notice (if you haven't already). Humans are an anomoly of nature. All other animals on earth are limitted to their specific habitat since they lack the innovation and the ability to adapt (without evolution). Humans are not limitted. If there is no food in a certain area, we can devise ways to grow food or transport food. If its too hot, we have AC. If there is a shortage of anything, we can find ways to increase the supply or find replacements. Nature will never and can never "adapt" to a species that has no limits and continuously grows. Since we cannot live without nature, we must take steps to find an equilibrium with nature. Because humans are an anomoly, this equilibrium will not happen naturally. The only way to find true equilibrium is if we go extinct, or if we start to respect nature and reflect that respect in action.

The above paragraph just reminds me of Agent Smiths monologue with Morpheus in "The Matrix"

Even if global warming is a "theory", we must understand that for anything to be a theory, it must be supported by facts (the theory of evolution, for example). Any theory that threatens earth should not be considered lightly, even if it is "just" a theory. The risk is too great. We only have one earth. Sadly, we will probably just keep living our normal everyday lives anyways.

It wasn't too long ago (when thinking of how long the Earth has been in existence) that us pesky humans thought the world was flat. That was a theory too and now we have a theory of the earth is round. Thank gawd I didn't fall off the edge of the world before we changed theories!

P.S. in response to earlier posts saying that global warming is all a cyclical: Is it just coincidence that at the current rate, this cycle will be the shortest and hottest cycle in earth's history? Maybe it is coincidence, maybe it isn't, but it sure does not make me feel good.
 
wasc007 said:
When a specie is endangered, it is no longer needed by nature.

I love animals, they are all delicious.
Well I don't know about that - some of those things they eat on Fear Factor don't seem to put big smiles on their faces!

So does PETA = people eating tasty animals?
 
Mmmm, I guess we should test the 100year theory by selling our 'efficient' 4Runners and buying Yukons and Suburbans, haul around 6x12 box trailers filled with rocks all day long, just for the heck of it! If the theory is true, we may get to see the end of the world in around 50 years, and get to star in the next 'end of the world' Spielberg movie.

Wow it's steamy hot today, excuse me while I go and crank up the AC.

: )
 
I'm not too sure about the global warming debate, because as stated earlier, the earth has gone through varying climate changes over the last serveral milleniums. IMO, with natural diasters, I think it has more to do with over population and the earth reaching its carrying capacity.

Well, even though we don't get a whole lot of miles per gallon, at least our trucks are more efficient than other trucks out there. Also, Toyota offers a powerful V8 option in a midsize SUV, so for those of us that need or desire the extra power, we don't have to get a behemoth. And our engines are LEV.
 
golbal worming is only one of our worries..... nuclar power plants produce lots of waist daily, and it takes 10,000 years to become safe again(where is all that waist going?). other types of pollution such as garbage, it doesent help that New York puts their trash in the Ocean.
so yea we are killing our self one way or another.

my 2 cents.
 

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