4Runner vs. Land Cruiser?
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Thai
Elite Member
Well, i have some experience...my brother has the Lexus LX470 and i have an '02 4runner (with plenty of experience with the new 4th gen 4runner).
Here are the major points: TLC vs. 4runner
1. 4runner is lighter with same engine = better performance and handling, esp. with XREAS.
2. 4runner has all the latest technos (Hill Assist and Downhill Assist). Torsen center diff is slightly more advance than TLC's gear-based center diff. They are same in design but Torsen is more flexible on-road because it can vary it's torque distribution based on traction. In off-roading, both system are equal.
3. TLC has better approach, breakover, and departure angles.
4. TLC has more ground clearance.
5. TLC's underbody is very clean...very little protrudes down there to snag a rock. It is much cleaner than 4runner/GX470 & Sequoia. The fuel tank is tuck up high into the body (unlike it's Toyota siblings). The whole bottom end in front is covered up by a plastic skidplate. The front skidplate is steel. It is quite impressive organization, given the room inside the TLC.
6. The frame of the TLC is probably stronger. Back in 1998, when TLC was first introduced, Toyota claimed that it's frame was the strongest of ANY production SUV in the world. They aimed to match the Range Rover...they surpassed it's frame strength.
7. The suspension system on the TLC is superior in off-roading. Despite torsion bar in front, the whole suspension has a lot more travel than 4runner/GX. Up to today, TLC still holds the record for the highest RTI of any vehicle with independent suspension. It even beat out Jeep Grand Cherokee, who has solid axles in front and rear. It loses only to Land Rover Discovery.
(RTI: ramp travel index. You run a car up a certain degree ramp, usually 20 degree. You measure how much a vehicle can go up until the one of the rear wheel loses contact with the ground.)
8. The rack-and-pinion steering on the TLC is specially designed to fit high up into the body...to avoid damage in off-roading. This has been somewhat of a problem with 4runners (and GX) in off-roading. The steering mechanism in the 4runner hangs low...most SUVs with rack & pinion steering hangs low due to design constraints. I believe that the Range Rover's system is also up high into the body (like TLC). That is why hard-core off-roaders still prefer recirculating-ball steering because it can be mounted high.
9. According to a site (forgot exact address), the TLC is able to climb 45 degree hill and cross a side slope of 45 degree. That is 100% grade and 100% side slope capability!! Only a handful of SUVs on the planet can do this. The new 4runner/GX can do about 42 and 41 degrees. This capability requires good vehicle design (wheelbase, length, track, etc.). In addition, the oil pan and engine must be able to work at those extreme degrees.
Conclusion: If I were to have a choice in off-roading, then i would pick the TLC...proven chasis, proven suspension, and proven heritage. Remember, back in 1998, Toyota made the TLC with no limitations on budget...it was their best effort after many years of research (over 5 years i believe). Let's just say that Toyota spent a lot of $$$$ on the TLC. That is why TLC/LX470 is still regarded so highly after so many years and arrivals of so many new competitors.
My opinion.
Here are the major points: TLC vs. 4runner
1. 4runner is lighter with same engine = better performance and handling, esp. with XREAS.
2. 4runner has all the latest technos (Hill Assist and Downhill Assist). Torsen center diff is slightly more advance than TLC's gear-based center diff. They are same in design but Torsen is more flexible on-road because it can vary it's torque distribution based on traction. In off-roading, both system are equal.
3. TLC has better approach, breakover, and departure angles.
4. TLC has more ground clearance.
5. TLC's underbody is very clean...very little protrudes down there to snag a rock. It is much cleaner than 4runner/GX470 & Sequoia. The fuel tank is tuck up high into the body (unlike it's Toyota siblings). The whole bottom end in front is covered up by a plastic skidplate. The front skidplate is steel. It is quite impressive organization, given the room inside the TLC.
6. The frame of the TLC is probably stronger. Back in 1998, when TLC was first introduced, Toyota claimed that it's frame was the strongest of ANY production SUV in the world. They aimed to match the Range Rover...they surpassed it's frame strength.
7. The suspension system on the TLC is superior in off-roading. Despite torsion bar in front, the whole suspension has a lot more travel than 4runner/GX. Up to today, TLC still holds the record for the highest RTI of any vehicle with independent suspension. It even beat out Jeep Grand Cherokee, who has solid axles in front and rear. It loses only to Land Rover Discovery.
(RTI: ramp travel index. You run a car up a certain degree ramp, usually 20 degree. You measure how much a vehicle can go up until the one of the rear wheel loses contact with the ground.)
8. The rack-and-pinion steering on the TLC is specially designed to fit high up into the body...to avoid damage in off-roading. This has been somewhat of a problem with 4runners (and GX) in off-roading. The steering mechanism in the 4runner hangs low...most SUVs with rack & pinion steering hangs low due to design constraints. I believe that the Range Rover's system is also up high into the body (like TLC). That is why hard-core off-roaders still prefer recirculating-ball steering because it can be mounted high.
9. According to a site (forgot exact address), the TLC is able to climb 45 degree hill and cross a side slope of 45 degree. That is 100% grade and 100% side slope capability!! Only a handful of SUVs on the planet can do this. The new 4runner/GX can do about 42 and 41 degrees. This capability requires good vehicle design (wheelbase, length, track, etc.). In addition, the oil pan and engine must be able to work at those extreme degrees.
Conclusion: If I were to have a choice in off-roading, then i would pick the TLC...proven chasis, proven suspension, and proven heritage. Remember, back in 1998, Toyota made the TLC with no limitations on budget...it was their best effort after many years of research (over 5 years i believe). Let's just say that Toyota spent a lot of $$$$ on the TLC. That is why TLC/LX470 is still regarded so highly after so many years and arrivals of so many new competitors.
My opinion.
The specs look pretty much the same for the current 4Runner and TLC. I don't see a spec for 4Runner breakover.
4Runner: approach/departure 32/24, clearance 9.1
TLC: approach/departure 31/24, clearance 9.8
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/4runner/specs.html
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/2004/landcruiser/specs.html
Thai
Elite Member
FirstToyz said:
Where did you get this info??
As for the FJ80, the only real advantage are the lockers. Otherwise, according to Toyota, the current TLC has the same suspension flex as the FJ80...which is quite amazing since the FJ80 had solid axles front and rear.
It's not just approach and departure. The one angle that people often forget is the BREAKOVER angle. This is where a nicely tucked underbody goes a long way.
Also, on the TLC, the front suspension is high up, as is the front skidplate. The 4runner has a low front suspension and skidplate. Why?? Well, the 4runner is designed to meet car crash guidelines. Thus, all SUVs nowadays are low to the ground in the front to avoid driving over a car in a crash. TLC is older design. Therefore, TLC has less chance of the front suspension hanging up on a rock.
4Runner4UGA
New member
After having had both, I say that my Land Cruiser is a much better off-road vehicle than the 4-runner. I can go anywhere in the LC places that you could only dream of. The only problem is people look at me funny when I take a Land Cruiser off-road, they do not think it can do all the things that it can.
TeryT
New member
Thanks to everyone who posted on here! So it looks like the LC is tops! What I seem to be hearing from everyone is this is the ranking of overall off-roading ability for SUVs:
1. Discovery
2. LC
3. 4Runner
(course if quality was the issue, the Toyota's would be #1)
Just out of curiousity, where would Grand Cherokee (quartratrac) & H2 fit in this list?
1. Discovery
2. LC
3. 4Runner
(course if quality was the issue, the Toyota's would be #1)
Just out of curiousity, where would Grand Cherokee (quartratrac) & H2 fit in this list?
4Runner4UGA
New member
Well TeryT I think the order depends on which model TLC vs Disco you are talking. I would say stock for stock a FZJ80 with all three diffs locking would beat the Disco as well as a 98-99 with the center and rear diff locking action, plus the Cruisers will get you to and from the action without fuss many more times than a Disco could ever hope for. There is a reason Land Rover is consistently at the bottom of all quality surveys. That fact is shown in a Disco losing so much of its value so fast and Land Cruisers holding them for years. A 1998 like mine still goes for nicely over 20k. Where I could get a 2002 Disco for around the same if not a 2003.
bulldog-yota
New member
Biff said:
Hey I'm still drooling over an FZJ80 after I saw yours at Pismo. Trying to break the piggy bank to get one. So many toys availible for it. Me still very jealous. I am still looking, but can't afford it now.
As to the FJ100, it is better (not as much as people would think) than the 4Runner for offroading unfortunately very few people in the US will know it as they serve mall duty. I think the 80 is probably better as it can be had with lockers and the axles can modded so easily for a far better off road vehicle. The biggest drawback of the 100 is it's size as it is quite a bit bigger than the 4th Gen Runner and weights a cool 1000lb extra. But that 1000lb is offset by the 20k your pockets will be lighter
4R vs LCJust remember the 4Runner is actually also marketed as a LC (Prado) in overseas markets. And there is a reason for it.
Thai
Elite Member
bulldog-yota said:As to the FJ100, it is better (not as much as people would think) than the 4Runner for offroading unfortunately very few people in the US will know it as they serve mall duty. I think the 80 is probably better as it can be had with lockers and the axles can modded so easily for a far better off road vehicle. The biggest drawback of the 100 is it's size as it is quite a bit bigger than the 4th Gen Runner and weights a cool 1000lb extra. But that 1000lb is offset by the 20k your pockets will be lighter
Just remember the 4Runner is actually also marketed as a LC (Prado) in overseas markets. And there is a reason for it.
This is true...the FJ80 can be modified easily. However, stock vs. stock, the FJ100 is almost as capable as FJ80 with locker option, and probably more capable than FJ80 without lockers. Overseas, if you look at which vehicle is being used, then you will see that FJ100 is much more widespread than Prado.
FirstToyz said:The Prado has already taken over the UN duties and will continue to be the 4x4 wagon of choice as time goes on.
Still, the 4Runner is awesome and with a few inexpensive mods, is going to be one of the most capable wagons out on the trails.
Wheel what you got.
Prado = fourth generation 4runner. Aren't these the same vehicle?
FirstToyz
I had a 95 FZJ80 before I got the new 4runner. I thought I found gold when I started looking into the 4runner. Same vehicle as the Lexus GX470 but way less money, it has the same transmission and engine as a new 2004 LC but way less money. Plus it has all of the latest traction control used in the GX470 and new LC. I pulled my 95 FZJ80 next to the new 4th generation 4runner at the dealership and they were right about the exact same size (which I liked). The new Landcruisers are nice but they need a much bigger engine to push around that extra 1000 lbs. I don't think it is worth my money to pay $20,000 more for the same engine, drivetrain and a few more inches of room. Plus your not going to catch me driving a $60K vehicle over a bunch of rocks and logs, your not going to catch me driving a $36K vehicle over a bunch of rocks. That's what a FZJ80 with over 150K miles on it is for, unless your a multi millionare or nuts. JMHO
PS- the new 4runner is better looking then the GX470 and the 100 series LC's. I wish it was as good looking as the FZJ80's but no one has made a SUV that can compete with the looks of an 80.
I had a 95 FZJ80 before I got the new 4runner. I thought I found gold when I started looking into the 4runner. Same vehicle as the Lexus GX470 but way less money, it has the same transmission and engine as a new 2004 LC but way less money. Plus it has all of the latest traction control used in the GX470 and new LC. I pulled my 95 FZJ80 next to the new 4th generation 4runner at the dealership and they were right about the exact same size (which I liked). The new Landcruisers are nice but they need a much bigger engine to push around that extra 1000 lbs. I don't think it is worth my money to pay $20,000 more for the same engine, drivetrain and a few more inches of room. Plus your not going to catch me driving a $60K vehicle over a bunch of rocks and logs, your not going to catch me driving a $36K vehicle over a bunch of rocks. That's what a FZJ80 with over 150K miles on it is for, unless your a multi millionare or nuts. JMHO
PS- the new 4runner is better looking then the GX470 and the 100 series LC's. I wish it was as good looking as the FZJ80's but no one has made a SUV that can compete with the looks of an 80.
Thai
Elite Member
FirstToyz, I don't think that it's fair to compare modified FJ80 to stock FJ100. If you want to, then wait a few years to see what the aftermarket can do with the 100 series.
Stock vs. stock...the 100 series is slightly more capable than a non-locker FJ80 and is slightly less capable than locker models.
Stock vs. stock...the 100 series is slightly more capable than a non-locker FJ80 and is slightly less capable than locker models.
After going through a similar comparison process to Pitbull's I purchased an 04 Limited as a replacement for my 10 year old 94 FZJ80.
I've got a fair amount of time behind the wheel behind of the, TLC FZJ80 both my modified 94 (locked) and my brother's stock 93 (unlocked), UZJ100 my father's 99 LX470 (stock), GX470 my mother's 03 (stock), & my 4th gen 4runner (stock so far).
In pure offroad ability I would rank them in the following order:
1) 94 FZJ80 (modified & locked)
2) 93 FZJ80 (stock)
3) 99 LX470/UZJ100 (stock)
4) 03 GX470/ 04 4runner (stock)
From my experience the margin is relatively small between 2,3 & 4 and the driver would make more difference than the equipment.
As far as using them as a Daily driver I would rank them in the following order:
1) GX470/4runner
2) LX470
3) Brother's stock 80
4) Modified 80
From my experience the difference is much greater here, the handling, quality of ride and perceived power decrease as you go down the list.
I've got a fair amount of time behind the wheel behind of the, TLC FZJ80 both my modified 94 (locked) and my brother's stock 93 (unlocked), UZJ100 my father's 99 LX470 (stock), GX470 my mother's 03 (stock), & my 4th gen 4runner (stock so far).
In pure offroad ability I would rank them in the following order:
1) 94 FZJ80 (modified & locked)
2) 93 FZJ80 (stock)
3) 99 LX470/UZJ100 (stock)
4) 03 GX470/ 04 4runner (stock)
From my experience the margin is relatively small between 2,3 & 4 and the driver would make more difference than the equipment.
As far as using them as a Daily driver I would rank them in the following order:
1) GX470/4runner
2) LX470
3) Brother's stock 80
4) Modified 80
From my experience the difference is much greater here, the handling, quality of ride and perceived power decrease as you go down the list.
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bulldog-yota
New member
Fair assessment.
I only want to mention one thing, for any SUV/truck today to be a true offroad vehicle it requires some modification (yes even the Jeep Rubicon and HUmmer LOL).
As the LC have been out longer you find more stuff for it, vs the 4Runner which makes it better for now. The 80 is still tops due to its axles and vast number of stuff you canget for it. The 100 has got a lot going for it but its size and bulk counts against it. The 4Runner's biggest shortcoming is its ground clearance and lack of lift kits availible, once these are on the market I think people will see a big difference. Lets talk in 4 years again when the playing field is more leveled in terms of what people are doing with their rides.
I only want to mention one thing, for any SUV/truck today to be a true offroad vehicle it requires some modification (yes even the Jeep Rubicon and HUmmer LOL).
As the LC have been out longer you find more stuff for it, vs the 4Runner which makes it better for now. The 80 is still tops due to its axles and vast number of stuff you canget for it. The 100 has got a lot going for it but its size and bulk counts against it. The 4Runner's biggest shortcoming is its ground clearance and lack of lift kits availible, once these are on the market I think people will see a big difference. Lets talk in 4 years again when the playing field is more leveled in terms of what people are doing with their rides.
Thai
Elite Member
A LX470 member on Clublexus.com recently had an accident...LX vs. tree.
Here's the link:
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1021518#post1021518
Here's the link to the aftermath pics:
http://www.jasonelcan.com/index_page_files/DeathofLX470GALLERY/index.htm
That's a true off-set crash at speeds greater than the IIHS criteria...so, this proves just how strong the LX's frame & body! It's built the right way! Like i keep on saying, the LX's frame & body is amazingly strong! From the A pillar back, there's almost no damage at all. The front end and subframe seemed to absorbed all the impact. Wow!
Here's the link:
http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1021518#post1021518
Here's the link to the aftermath pics:
http://www.jasonelcan.com/index_page_files/DeathofLX470GALLERY/index.htm
That's a true off-set crash at speeds greater than the IIHS criteria...so, this proves just how strong the LX's frame & body! It's built the right way! Like i keep on saying, the LX's frame & body is amazingly strong! From the A pillar back, there's almost no damage at all. The front end and subframe seemed to absorbed all the impact. Wow!
