5th Gen Brake Failure - 17 TRDP

[BlackWorksInc]

When you babysit a population for everything else there is no way they are going to think about adjusting there floormats. Maybe I'm just an old fart, hah well I am but in them old days you paid attention to things like your floor mats, how well you engine was firing (or misfiring), whether you had proper air pressure in your tires, ect. ect.

So yeah it becomes a problem, sadly.

oh and damn lets coat those wires with organic insulation that rodents love, as it it wasn't bad enough with petroleum based wire insulation.

From what I saw, 90% of the customers I get have at least 2 floor mats stacked on top of each other. 50% or more have at least 3 floor mats/covers (cardboard/towels/plastic matting/ect), and in the bay area I saw probably a 1/3 have more that 3 things and/or kids crap/garbage/junk all over the floor.

There's just no common sense there... like most of today's world.

The fact that I've been a forum member for less than 1 month and this is the third thread about 5th gen non-deterministic brake failure is very disconcerting.

Hard to say, I'd have to check the threads out (I've been sort of AWOL from the forum for a bit). But keep in mind we're a niche section of the 4Runner population, so even if there were 3 actual failures (not saying they didn't occur, just that I haven't seen the threads and/or complaints) that's an extremely small slice of the pie and the probability is very low.

That being said, it is a very odd issue.

 

[1engineer]

From what I saw, 90% of the customers I get have at least 2 floor mats stacked on top of each other. 50% or more have at least 3 floor mats/covers (cardboard/towels/plastic matting/ect), and in the bay area I saw probably a 1/3 have more that 3 things and/or kids crap/garbage/junk all over the floor.

There's just no common sense there... like most of today's world.



Hard to say, I'd have to check the threads out (I've been sort of AWOL from the forum for a bit). But keep in mind we're a niche section of the 4Runner population, so even if there were 3 actual failures (not saying they didn't occur, just that I haven't seen the threads and/or complaints) that's an extremely small slice of the pie and the probability is very low.

That being said, it is a very odd issue.

You didn't answer my last pm that was an answer for you!

 

[Hadelson]

From what I saw, 90% of the customers I get have at least 2 floor mats stacked on top of each other. 50% or more have at least 3 floor mats/covers (cardboard/towels/plastic matting/ect), and in the bay area I saw probably a 1/3 have more that 3 things and/or kids crap/garbage/junk all over the floor.

There's just no common sense there... like most of today's world.



Hard to say, I'd have to check the threads out (I've been sort of AWOL from the forum for a bit). But keep in mind we're a niche section of the 4Runner population, so even if there were 3 actual failures (not saying they didn't occur, just that I haven't seen the threads and/or complaints) that's an extremely small slice of the pie and the probability is very low.

That being said, it is a very odd issue.

Just for the record, use Weathertech Mats. The standard mats are pulled and stored under the rear cargo liner. Routinely check my tire pressure, know how to listen to an engine and when motivated can pretty much tear down and rebuild the vehicle if I wanted.

That said, it's not a small thing to the person who has the brakes completely fail when driving and kinda makes the probability discussion a moot point.

This my third T4R and first one where I've had a serious mechanical failure. Let's hope Toyota does the right thing and change out the Master Cylinder unit.

 

[Slowgoat]

Subd!

Scary!

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Just for the record, use Weathertech Mats. The standard mats are pulled and stored under the rear cargo liner. Routinely check my tire pressure, know how to listen to an engine and when motivated can pretty much tear down and rebuild the vehicle if I wanted.

That said, it's not a small thing to the person who has the brakes completely fail when driving and kinda makes the probability discussion a moot point.

This my third T4R and first one where I've had a serious mechanical failure. Let's hope Toyota does the right thing and change out the Master Cylinder unit.

I'm not trying to discredit your experience, I was just pointing out the numbers to the guy I quoted. Like I said, it's a very odd issue because your vehicle is operating perfectly fine right now. If it were something like the accumulator pump/pod failing and/or master cylinder portion failing it'd be consistent and easily verifiable. Where as right now the vehicle is operating perfectly fine which makes narrowing down what the issue is more complex.

The only closest thing I can think of is sort of similar to what happened to you is when you depressurize the system before servicing the master cylinder unit. But that's something that is very specific to do and unlikely to happen outside of a shop situation, but one of the notes in the FSM is that the pedal will sink to the floor if done correctly.

 

[erapmicks]

I had this problem with my 2007 4Runner sr5. Emergent braking situation where it felt like it’s working then stepped harder on brake and felt a pop on brake and the vehicle just kept going and ended up hitting the car. Happened to me twice on this 4R. Very concerning to say the least


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[Hadelson]

Spoke with Dealership and Toyota in California. Starting to sound like choreographed BS with each pointing to the other for next steps. Of course they want me to drive the car and develop more information-even though they have codes consistent with brake pumping when you have a system failure.

So here is where we are. Told them only with a Hold harmless would I drive the car. Simply explained my liability if the brakes failed and I had an accident injuring or killing someone. Told them, this should not be an issue since they are stating the brake system appears to be working fine (Even though they have the brake pumping codes) and they stand behind there product and work.

Crickets and we will get back to you. Stand Bye:rockthrow:

 

[honda250xtitan]

Spoke with Dealership and Toyota in California. Starting to sound like choreographed BS with each pointing to the other for next steps. Of course they want me to drive the car and develop more information-even though they have codes consistent with brake pumping when you have a system failure.

So here is where we are. Told them only with a Hold harmless would I drive the car. Simply explained my liability if the brakes failed and I had an accident injuring or killing someone. Told them, this should not be an issue since they are stating the brake system appears to be work fine (Even though they have the brake pumping codes) and they stand behind there product and work.

Crickets and we will get back to you. Stand Bye:rockthrow:

if everything is fine then tell them you want to trade it in for a different 4runner lol. Seriously thats some sketchy sh1t, GL.

 

[nevada]

Spoke with Dealership and Toyota in California. Starting to sound like choreographed BS with each pointing to the other for next steps. Of course they want me to drive the car and develop more information-even though they have codes consistent with brake pumping when you have a system failure.

So here is where we are. Told them only with a Hold harmless would I drive the car. Simply explained my liability if the brakes failed and I had an accident injuring or killing someone. Told them, this should not be an issue since they are stating the brake system appears to be working fine (Even though they have the brake pumping codes) and they stand behind there product and work.

Crickets and we will get back to you. Stand Bye:rockthrow:

trade vehicles with the manager for a few weeks. see if the brakes are "good enough" for him to drive it for a while...

 

[Sekiride]

This is just crazy glad to hear no one was hurt.

 

[Its-a-4Runner]

In a crash significant enough to meet the threshold of the airbag control module, the data will show brake pedal application and pre-collision deceleration. If the 2 don't correspond there is obviously an issue. Hopefully Toyota isn't waiting for that to occur.

 

[Hadelson]

Had two calls this afternoon from California and one from the dealership. I am very polite but firm. (Note, I am a EHS Manager in a large global logistics company and have a clear understanding of Security/safety/risk management). For all the calls, stayed on consistent message reviewing in detail the safety/risk/liability concern and the fact they have codes substantiating pumping brakes consistent with a brake failure issue. They are aware I am documenting each contact and opened a complaint with the NHTSA.

Not sure how this will turn out however it does appear I have there attention.

 

[Hadelson]

Just received call from dealer.....about went as expected. Drove your car for 100 miles, checked entire system and could not duplicate issue-Brakes fine. Asked why the codes for pumping brakes? I explained during the entire event, I did not have any warning lights or alarms, but something triggered the code for brakes pumping--maybe ECU is failing? Crickets.........

So here is where we are. They want me to come and get the vehicle. Business travel prevents me from doing this until Thursday. I told them I want a complete list of all brake diagnostics with a road check noted on service invoice as well as statement brakes are functioning correctly.

Not happy with this. Now the burden is on me to record any further brake events----- guess I will keep cell phone ready on video to record if further brake issues occur.

Let's hope its not after I'm involved in an accident.

 

[1engineer]

Just received call from dealer.....about went as expected. Drove your car for 100 miles, checked entire system and could not duplicate issue-Brakes fine. Asked why the codes for pumping brakes? I explained during the entire event, I did not have any warning lights or alarms, but something triggered the code for brakes pumping--maybe ECU is failing? Crickets.........

So here is where we are. They want me to come and get the vehicle. Business travel prevents me from doing this until Thursday. I told them I want a complete list of all brake diagnostics with a road check noted on service invoice as well as statement brakes are functioning correctly.

Not happy with this. Now the burden is on me to record any further brake events----- guess I will keep cell phone ready on video to record if further brake issues occur.

Let's hope its not after I'm involved in an accident.

What would be your ideal solution? If they drove it for 100 miles, tested everything and checked it as thoroughly as possible, what else can they do realistically? Your brakes will work without electronics, unless you have a catastrophic failure like a brake line bust. Good luck and I hope you have no more issues.

 

[Hadelson]

What would be your ideal solution? If they drove it for 100 miles, tested everything and checked it as thoroughly as possible, what else can they do realistically? Your brakes will work without electronics, unless you have a catastrophic failure like a brake line bust. Good luck and I hope you have no more issues.

Came to same conclusion.

 

[Bishop98]

Sorry if I missed this but have you contacted Toyota Customer Care/Corporate and voiced your concern or asked them to get involved?

 

[aelarson]

I would look into Lemon Law in your particular state. Since brakes are a essential piece of equipment that could potentially harm yourself or others if failed, you may be able to go down that path. Best of luck, definitely a scary situation!

 

[Ride S40T]

Came to same conclusion.

Well, it would be a whole lotta "no" for me.

They'd keep it until corporate could do a diagnostic or tear it apart. Find an answer.

Bottom line, there IS an undiagnosed catastrophic problem. It's not like the windshield washers don't work. Just a tad bit more serious.

Can hear the service manager "Um, yeah, if you could go ahead and register another one of those complete brake failures, that'd be great. Then, if the truck is still in one piece, we'll look at it again."

There are a few things a responsible auto maker should keep an auto for. This is one.

 

[Captramrod01]

What would be your ideal solution? If they drove it for 100 miles, tested everything and checked it as thoroughly as possible, what else can they do realistically? Your brakes will work without electronics, unless you have a catastrophic failure like a brake line bust. Good luck and I hope you have no more issues.

Are you sure about that? This is a semi common issue on the 100 series LC. The brake pump will start to fail with symptoms exactly like what the OP and others have experienced. When this pump fails you have no brakes and no leaks anywhere in the system. As far as I know pretty much every atrac equipped Toyota has a similar brake setup including the 5th gen.

 

[1engineer]

Well, it would be a whole lotta "no" for me.

They'd keep it until corporate could do a diagnostic or tear it apart. Find an answer.

Bottom line, there IS an undiagnosed catastrophic problem. It's not like the windshield washers don't work. Just a tad bit more serious.

Can hear the service manager "Um, yeah, if you could go ahead and register another one of those complete brake failures, that'd be great. Then, if the truck is still in one piece, we'll look at it again."

There are a few things a responsible auto maker should keep an auto for. This is one.

So what's your solution? They kept It, went through It, drove it a hundred miles with no issues. Do you want 200 miles? 1000 miles? When do you know it's right? What if they don't find anything? Lemon laws are different in every state. This is a unique, not a common problem. What do you do?

Are you sure about that? This is a semi common issue on the 100 series LC. The brake pump will start to fail with symptoms exactly like what the OP and others have experienced. When this pump fails you have no brakes and no leaks anywhere in the system. As far as I know pretty much every atrac equipped Toyota has a similar brake setup including the 5th gen.

If brakes fail they do not heal themselves. Cylinder, hose, etc.