6 Disappearing Car Features

[Thai]

Can't say I driven a car with a fancy transmission. I'm intrigued that there is no torque converter. So is it just like a solenoid that actuates the clutch instead of your foot? Can if function like a full auto, just put her in drive and go? Are the internals of the trans like an auto or more like a manual? Would it take ATF or gear oil? LOL

when I go off the beaten path I'm of happy its automatic cause I'm so dam focused on other things lol.

Yup, my BMW SMG transmission is very much like a regular manual tranny except for a few extra computer chips. The clutch is actuated by the computer through whatever...but there is an ACTUAL clutch that the computer/solenoid presses. Thus, you do need to replace the clutch on a SMG transmission. Yes, it can do full auto but not very good. It will help you out when you are tired or when you're stuck in traffic. However, it does a relatively POOR job of copying a true automatic transmission with torque converter.

The newer dual-clutch automanuals do a much better job at copying an automatic transmission, but yeah, it is still not as good in auto mode. It is really a manual trying to be an automatic rather than the other way around.

Porsche, Ferraris, Lambos, etc. all use auto-manuals now.

And your last sentence is why automatics are now preferred off-road.

 

[TRDCal]

The TSA investigation is not yet complete but it has shown an air speed way below touchdown speed and they're leaning toward pilot error.
You have to wonder if pilots had better flying skill in something like an old DC-3 where they had to have their hands on the controls non-stop from hangar-to-hangar....

Same as that Air France 330 a couple years back. Pilots forgot how to fly the plane because there so use to letting the autopilot do it.

 

[Thai]

BMW SMG...this is the original SMG tranny in my old BMW...this is single-clutch. (The newer tranny from BMW is dual-clutch.)

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ch14vj832T0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[TRDCal]

Porsche, Ferraris, Lambos, etc. all use auto-manuals now.

And your last sentence is why automatics are now preferred off-road.

I guess I'll have to wait till they become more mainstream. The car you mentioned are a bit out of my price range

I think in most European and Asian markets (in general, not just high end), manuals are still the preferred transmission. Its really only North America, maybe Australia, not sure about other parts of the world that the automatic has become the leader.

As for getting on topic, I can't see losing the manual transmission in my lifetime. They may become less available but there will always be that niche market with a manual transmission vehicle, like the FJ cruiser

EDIT: Nice video

 

[KidVermicious]

Out of curiosity, do you mean you rather drive a manual transmission even when out wheeling, or just generally speaking? Granted I am not well versed in off-road driving whatsoever, so please take this with a grain of salt, but I don't see any benefits of having a manual transmission in those instances?

I loved driving a manual transmission vehicle when I was younger, I wouldn't have it any other way. Now that I've gotten older I just start to not give a damn and rather enjoy having a free hand and foot at my disposal, lol.

Stock to stock, I'd rather wheel an automatic. The ability to nose up to an obstacle and give it gas until your wheel pops up without having to worry about lugging the motor or slipping the clutch is great. But a manual trans has the benefit of better gear braking when descending, more fuel and power efficiency, and more reliability. Take all that and then add 4.7 transfer case gears or a doubler, and it acts just like an automatic when you're crawling anyway. I'll take my manual over an automatic any day, on pavement or off. The only time I miss the auto is in stop and go traffic .

 

[Thai]

I guess I'll have to wait till they become more mainstream. The car you mentioned are a bit out of my price range

I think in most European and Asian markets (in general, not just high end), manuals are still the preferred transmission. Its really only North America, maybe Australia, not sure about other parts of the world that the automatic has become the leader.

That's the thing...automanuals are becoming more mainstream as we speak! Ford Focus, VW Jettas, even Smart cars having automanuals either standard or as an option. While these are not the best examples of such, they are a sign that this is where we're heading. CVTs and automanuals will become very much mainstream to replace the true manual trannies (and even automatics).

Manuals are commonplace in Europe probably because manual transmission vehicles are generally cheaper (to buy) than their automatic counterpart.

more fuel and power efficiency, and more reliability. Take all that and then add 4.7 transfer case gears or a doubler, and it acts just like an automatic when you're crawling anyway. I'll take my manual over an automatic any day, on pavement or off. The only time I miss the auto is in stop and go traffic .

Not sure about the fuel efficiency part...most automatics now outperform manual in fuel economy.

Be careful what you wish for! My brother's Wrangler Rubicon with 6-speed manual AND 4:1 transfer case is not all that easy to drive off-road. Yes, it has amazing crawl ratio...but at times, he is stuck driving too damn slow in LO range. So, he has to shift quite a bit.

 

[grey_ghost]

Ok i'm relatively new here but i'm quickly discovering Thai likes to have his opinion heard No worries, it's a friendly discussion, so I'll try to address each point:

But, why did you buy that luxury car in the first place? Luxury and convenience, right? Yes, things can go wrong with any generation of cars. It is like earlier when people want carburetors back...well, people want carbs back but still want ultra efficiency. You can't have both ways.)

I bought it because it was pre-owned, a good deal, and thought it would be a nice ride for a while, though when the big repair cost popped up I decided I didn't need that much technology. i owned it just a little over a year.

It is not like old cars were reliable either. Modern technology have greatly improve reliability and durability thru better designs and better technology! You change oil less often...how much money is that saved? Didn't old engines used to leak and eat up oil? You change transmission oil much less often (sometimes never in an average car's life)...how much is that saved? $700 to cover your door handle?

Another example? My Prius will never need a starter, probably never need brake pads until 150-200k miles if ever, and proabably never needs transmission fluid changed until I trade it in. It really only needs oil changes every 10k miles, tire rotations, and new windshield wipers for the (average)life of it. Can a 1960 Chevy do that? You want to compare costs of ownership? Want to compare gas mileage b/w old and new while still being faster than any old junker? Even with new door handles all around, a modern car will come out way ahead!

Agreed some tech is useful but I think you're still missing my point. My new T4R benefits greatly from its advanced V6 with VVTi but yet i'm very happy with its old school doorhandles. One of my best cars was a '67 Chevy Camaro RS and back then, no it didn't leak a single drop of oil as long as you maintain it properly. Plus it didn't have that engine-choking catalytic converter (and i'm afraid it was a LOT faster than your Prius). But hey I was always a gear-head since high school and it sounds like you weren't. for example I wouldn't drive a Prius even if someone gave it to me; it doesn't fit a gear-head mentality.

Did airplanes not crash before auto-pilots? How many lives have been saved with the current techs in airplanes? In the old days, how many stories did we hear about airplanes colliding in midair or crash due to bad navigating or loss at sea etc.? That is OK? But, this one Asiana crash is the pinnacle of technology failure and brainless pilots? How many families have landed safely in the past 24 hours thanks to technology and competent pilots?
Can technology cover every possible idiocy caused by man? No. Just like, can car technology save every life due to drunk driving or sleepiness? No. But, does that mean that once in a while, something bad happens and we blame it on technology and how it has eroded our brain instead of ONE (or four in Asiana's crash) man's idiocy?

Again, the point recently acknowledged by TSA and the airline industry is that rapid technology advancement can result in less than adequate pilot training programs. The real danger here is if its not "One man's idiocy" but perhaps a trend. Likewise, the auto industry is moving towards fully self-driving cars; I could see a day when the simple skill of driving could become a lost art.
If you haven't seen it, rent an animated movie called Wall-E. it was billed as a children's movie but in fact had a very adult message and great humor. in the future, humans had so much automation, we had all devolved into overweight blobs that constantly moved around in robotic lazy-boy chairs.

In the meantime, my Google Maps on my Galaxy Note 2 is far far more accurate and up to date than any paper maps (or in-car navigation system)!

People tend to be dismissive about catastrophic scenarios but Helo-Mech has a good point. Not talking about zombies, but if you monitor the international news, the world is not getting more stable and in fact seems to be getting worse and our current leadership is not doing much to maintain our security. Our 21st century enemies look at tech and infrastructure as potential targets. Both GPS and cellular tech have vulnerabilities. In a major catastrophe your smart phone could be rendered useless and imagine much of our youth today; how long would they last and what kind of survival skills would they have if GPS, cellular, wi-fi went down...??

 

[paddlenbike]

It really really saddens me that Americans don't buy manual transmissions so auto manufacturers respond by not building them. There is no substitute for a manual when it comes to driving pleasure. Heck, even my supercharged manual transmission 4runner is more fun to drive than our brand new Acura with paddle shifting.

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=96029]grey_ghost[/MENTION],

This is a discussion, isn't it? You have your opinion, and I have mine. Not sure why you are taken back by me expressing my thoughts. Weird.

So, you dumped a pre-owned luxury car after 1 year because of one door handle of $700?? That sounds odd to say the least, even for a self-proclaimed "gear head".

Cat converter...yank that sucker out! Again, it comes down to this...people want clean air, fuel efficiency, power.......yet old engine design with carbs and no cats. Make sense to you?

My Prius is just an example of what technology can do and how it benefits us in terms of ownership costs. Not sure why you chose to make snide remarks about it. I am happy that your '67 Camaro is faster than my Prius...so is my minivan! (Hell, my minivan may be even faster than your Camaro RS! ) Is that why i got a Prius? Should I be impress? Gear head? Hmmm, you own a FJ Cruiser and 2013 4runner. Not exactly old school!

Now, I agree with you about Wall-E. Great movie.

Has there been a trend with modern airplanes dropping out of the sky due to pilots forgetting how to fly? Or is this more about media blowing things out of proportion as always??

Did you forget about US Airways Flight 1549? Was that a sign of pilots being zombies?

Lets keep the cheap shots aside....

 

[Thai]

Dual Clutch automanual:
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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/3168HrHGeLw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[grey_ghost]

Thai, sorry for getting too far off on a tangent, i've seen lots of forums & blogs get ugly quick so I'd rather keep it friendly.
As for the luxury car- yeah I tend to get restless and often don't keep cars more than a couple years at a time; plus it turned out my wife never liked that car so that too was a factor. I know its expensive to trade often, but its more of a hobby for me.
You're right my recent purchases are not too old school, though I consciously decided not to look for GPS or too many bells & whistles in those choices.
Another point of agreeement for us: I have a good friend as a service manager at a Lexus dealership and he confirmed the Lexus IS sedans with auto transmissions now get better fuel mileage than the same car with a manual.
That said, another car I had in HS was a '71 dodge dart with a 340 & 4-speed and there's still nothing like the feel of manual shifting and the roar of old V8 muscle. So i sympathize with some of the guys here that love a real clutch and shifter.

My point though on aircraft was one that was recently made in a CBS interview with Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger, who made that famous emergency landing in the Hudson river. Sully talked about airplane automation being a "growing concern". But hey if there's one good thing that comes out of the SF crash, it's that the whole airline industry is apparently taking a closer look at this issue.

 

[Thai]

In a major catastrophe your smart phone could be rendered useless and imagine much of our youth today; how long would they last and what kind of survival skills would they have if GPS, cellular, wi-fi went down...??

I grew up with paper maps. Now, I rely on GPS, WiFi, and cell. You don't?? How are you able to get on this forum??!! :hippie:

You're telling me that young kids can't learn how to read a standard paper map? Did I miss something? How hard is it? I am sure that I can teach any teen how to read it once I teach him/her what is north/south and how to read the street index. That would take about 15 minutes?

Again, without technology, I would head in the direction that is safest. Compass reading ain't rocket science either. Compass app on iPhone looks just like the real thing...so, if you can read the app, then you can read the real thing.

 

[Thai]

Thai, sorry for getting too far off on a tangent, i've seen lots of forums & blogs get ugly quick so I'd rather keep it friendly.
As for the luxury car- yeah I tend to get restless and often don't keep cars more than a couple years at a time; plus it turned out my wife never liked that car so that too was a factor. I know its expensive to trade often, but its more of a hobby for me.
You're right my recent purchases are not too old school, though I consciously decided not to look for GPS or too many bells & whistles in those choices.
Another point of agreeement for us: I have a good friend as a service manager at a Lexus dealership and he confirmed the Lexus IS sedans with auto transmissions now get better fuel mileage than the same car with a manual.
That said, another car I had in HS was a '71 dodge dart with a 340 & 4-speed and there's still nothing like the feel of manual shifting and the roar of old V8 muscle. So i sympathize with some of the guys here that love a real clutch and shifter.

My point though on aircraft was one that was recently made in a CBS interview with Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger, who made that famous emergency landing in the Hudson river. Sully talked about airplane automation being a "growing concern". But hey if there's one good thing that comes out of the SF crash, it's that the whole airline industry is apparently taking a closer look at this issue.

Now, you're telling us the REAL reasons why you dumped that luxury car...I bet that it had very little to do with the door handle issue...more of a wife issue. Simply put, any gear-head would not be concern about a door handle issue to dump the whole car!

I like that hobby of yours! I used to be the same way until my wife "tamed" me. I love cars...so, yeah, it was irritating to hear that you think that I am not a gearhead simply because I own a Prius. In fact, I think that a gearhead SHOULD be familiar with many types of cars. I have own cars from all categories in the past 15 years, from BMW M3, Toyota 4runner, G-wagen, crossover, Minivan, and now a Prius. (I am no tree-hugger.)

Auto being more efficient...see Hondas, Toyotas, BMWs, etc.. You don't buy manual tranny for efficiency nowadays! You buy manuals for the speed and connection. But, this is where automanuals come in as noted above.

You're right about the feel of the old V8. Personally, I prefer the feel and noise of a Lexus LF-A!

I agree with your last paragraph. I hope that we never become Wall-E. At the same time, I don't see the same TREND that you mention about airplanes falling out of the sky due to gross pilot incompetence.

 

[KidVermicious]

Not sure about the fuel efficiency part...most automatics now outperform manual in fuel economy.

No, the TCU outperforms the average driver. The automatic transmission itself is still much less efficient than a manual. When I see an auto without a transmission fluid cooler, I'll believe they're comparable to a manual in terms of efficiency.

 

[Thai]

No, the TCU outperforms the average driver. The automatic transmission itself is still much less efficient than a manual. When I see an auto without a transmission fluid cooler, I'll believe they're comparable to a manual in terms of efficiency.

Sorry but I don't understand what you're saying...honestly. Are you saying that transmission cooler improves fuel economy on automatics?

Here is an example...Acura TSX:

EPA MPG Ratings (city / hwy / combined)

I4 5-speed AT: 22/31/26
I4 6-speed MT: 21/29/24

Link: Acura Media Newsroom - TSX - 2012 Acura TSX - Powertrain

No mention of transmission cooler on either the Acura website or the link above.

 

[KidVermicious]

No, I'm saying an automatic transmission by it's very nature produces more heat than a manual - the only time an automatic is approaching a manual in terms of efficiency is when the TQ is locked up, and even then the manual has the edge because there's fewer moving parts. There's fuel being used to generate that waste heat that could be used to push the car.

Modern automatics get better MPG numbers because the computers that control them are better than your average driver at knowing what gear to be in and when to shift, not because the transmission itself is inherently more efficient.

Did I do a better job of explaining myself? I'm not very good at that sometimes.

 

[1engineer]

No, I'm saying an automatic transmission by it's very nature produces more heat than a manual - the only time an automatic is approaching a manual in terms of efficiency is when the TQ is locked up, and even then the manual has the edge because there's fewer moving parts. There's fuel being used to generate that waste heat that could be used to push the car.

Modern automatics get better MPG numbers because the computers that control them are better than your average driver at knowing what gear to be in and when to shift, not because the transmission itself is inherently more efficient.

Did I do a better job of explaining myself? I'm not very good at that sometimes.

[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] sorry [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] is corrrect. Automatic Transmissions are less efficient from a mechanical standpoint than a manual transmission. The electronic controls of an automatic make up for the inefficiencies of the design.
The real reason for their demise is people are too lazy to learn how to drive. C'mon, they are already making an automatic gas and brake pedal and working on automatic steering! Wall-e is where we are headed lol.

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] sorry [MENTION=49649]KidVermicious[/MENTION] is corrrect. Automatic Transmissions are less efficient from a mechanical standpoint than a manual transmission. The electronic controls of an automatic make up for the inefficiencies of the design.
The real reason for their demise is people are too lazy to learn how to drive. C'mon, they are already making an automatic gas and brake pedal and working on automatic steering! Wall-e is where we are headed lol.

1engineer, I was not really debating with Kid. I just did not understand what he wrote earlier. He did a much better job in his next post!

I understand that auto tranny makes more heat and thus inherently less efficient. However, the days of buying a manual for fuel economy reason are over.

And thus my initial point...that modern technology has been good. Automatics are now improving to the point that it can do better than most folks driving a manual, in both performance and (end point) efficiency. And then you add in the auto-manuals, which combines the best of both worlds.

 

[Thai]

Wall-e is where we are headed lol.

I doubt that we are even close to this. Legislation to REQUIRE these fully driven vehicles are still far away. But, I do want radar cruise and pre-collision systems to trickle down on lower cost cars!