Dimwitted (Media) Speculation
- Thread starter Carmaker1
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Jetboy
New member
I always appreciate your info. It's easy to just look back at the media sources and see if they were right or wrong on past predictions. Your info has always been reliable, so I find it very credible.
I think the TTv6 makes sense as a late addition. Toyota is just falling so far behind by sitting on these models for so long. They haven't done a ground up re-design since 2002. And everyone else will be offering far more powerful engine options, many of which also likely get better mpg. It seems reasonable that Toyota has been forced to make major drivetrain upgrades late in design process due to the known competition and the disappointing performance of its TNGA transmission based hybrid system.
We know the Bronco already has some powerful engine options, and the new Ranger will have the TTv6 with 400hp. The Wrangler has the big V8 now, but will almost certainly get the TTI6 engine. And the GM twins will at a minimum get the 2.7 turbo 4 and it's a lot more powerful than Toyota's TT 2.4 4cyl. So I don't think a 270hp turbo 4 as the top engine will be competitive in 2025 when everyone else has 350-400hp.
I hope that the rumor of a TTv6 tacoma or 4Runner is true. It's hard to see how Toyota can offer only the 2.4 turbo or a NA I4 hybrid based on the system in the Tundra.
Sadly this confirms that it's time for me to move on from Toyota/Lexus. I was considering holding out for a GX. But waiting until 26 or 27 is just not realistic for us (we won't buy the first year or two of a car).
Still in no rush to do it bc of the mess that car sales/supplies are right now, but it definitely won't be a Toyota.
Still in no rush to do it bc of the mess that car sales/supplies are right now, but it definitely won't be a Toyota.
balong48
New member
Yeah especially with Mike Sweers driving the program I don't blame you. Not sure if it's a coincidence but he can't seem to do vehicle launches smoothly. First year of the Taco redesign was rough and the new Tundra is looking like a shit show too. This will be the first 4Runner redesign (outside of the 5th gen refresh) where Sweers is behind the program and it scares me. Took them what five years to dial in the engine/transmission tuning on the Taco? They do seem pretty issue free now otherwise.
I did have a first model year 4th gen that was relatively issue free, the rust is where things went wrong. It was pretty flawless otherwise.
Jetboy
New member
I'd love to know more about how much influence he has as the lead on the program. Does Toyota say - "You can have this engine, this transmission, and this platform. Go make it look like a truck" or does Toyota C suite folks say "go build a tundra, take whatever you want from the parts bin or develop new, here's a budget, go make something great."
In the first situation, maybe he can't do anything if he's forced to only use the 3.5/6AT, has to keep the shared suspension parts, and has to meet an EPA target, maybe that's the best he could do. At that point he's basically just there for the styling and engineering of seats and windows, etc. Not the real stuff like frame designs, engines, transmissions, axles etc.
If someone said - "You get the 1GR and A750F and you have to use the 150 platform to build an SUV for $35-45k price range and it needs to be a 3 row." I'd be jumping up and down on my boss' desk to let me put at least an 8 speed transmission in and either a v8 or a turbo 6. But if they said no - what else could you do? If those were the constraints, I think the 4Runner is about as good as you could make it.
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balong48
New member
Thoughts in red
Jetboy
New member
I think the primary difference between the two V35A models is in the airbox and exhaust. The LS version has particulate filters in the exhaust that the Tundra doesn't need to. And the LS IIRC has a secondary airbox flap that opens under WOT where the Tundra does not. And the LS is also tuned for 91 octane vs 87 in the Tundra. Those changes are my bet as to why we see the different output between them.
A far as the waste gate issue - probably just a manufacturing error in the linkage from the sounds of it. Supposedly the linkage can be installed backward and it will function normally. Not sure if that's true. It's something that should be easy to correct if that's the real issue. But we won't know for a few years if there are other big problems.
A far as the waste gate issue - probably just a manufacturing error in the linkage from the sounds of it. Supposedly the linkage can be installed backward and it will function normally. Not sure if that's true. It's something that should be easy to correct if that's the real issue. But we won't know for a few years if there are other big problems.
balong48
New member
I thought there was a bit more but it's been a while since I've seen the video explaining the differences. I'd have to watch that again.
Either way hopefully Toyota figures it out and can get it resolved and carry the lessons learned over to the new Taco and 4Runner. I won't be in the market for one until 2025-2026 so hopefully they'll have the 4Runner dialed in for the 2025/6 MY
TexasFunRunner
New member
I've been looking forward to owning a new 6th gen 4Runner for a some time, but now with all the reliability issues Toyota is having with the new TGNA platform Tundra, I'm really starting to have my doubts if that is a smart move. I don't mine waiting for the 2nd year to work out the bugs, but that no longer seems possible, maybe the 3rd or 4th year.I thought there was a bit more but it's been a
Either way hopefully Toyota figures it out and can get it resolved and carry the lessons learned over to the new Taco and 4Runner. I won't be in the market for one until 2025-2026 so hopefully they'll have the 4Runner dialed in for the 2025/6 MY
You have to wonder if Toyota has the capability any longer to build a reliable, new release vehicle. Is it a basic lack of talent in the design and testing process or is Mike Sweers pressured by Toyota corporate to squeeze budgets and deadlines, like every other American vehicle manufacturer.
DO NOT TRUST him lol. These folks are sometimes curious themselves, but do not try to think out of the box and realize a lot of info online, isn't really accurate if there isn't a corporate source or someone close enough (like me) behind it, to verify it to be correct.
If I wasn't set straight by some people on this project and/or working for Toyota as an in-house employee, I would've continued with stating 2023MY, as I first mentioned in February 2020. Once someone told me "2024" and explained his background, I trusted him and didn't put up a fuss. I checked with my own circle, they confirmed it.
I've since tried to correct myself and accept blame for not being up to speed on recent changes, but I am often ignored when I try to pass on this insight.
(What happens with other people now is, they simply don't listen and carry on with the wrong belief. Not only that, the really loud ones, "front page" (spread around) their false information through multiple mediums online and anyone who doesn't know better, trusts it over the correct narrative.
Right now, many folks are expecting a redesigned Tacoma this fall and that hasn't been the case for some 3 years internally. All because they saw some Toyota endorsed spy shots last autumn and then assumed = out in 1 year.
It's because of TFL and the like on YouTube, who get giddy and don't think it through. Yet they keep this false hype going and dismiss warnings of others more informed than them. They want privileged emails from sources like me, providing my personal details and insider documentation/visuals.
I value my privacy and don't like them for my own reasons, but don't mind setting them on the right track, being that they have a large audience trusting them.
I criticized TFL's poor reporting and the moderator banned me out of petty insecurity.)
You mean everything posted on the Internet isn't true? Color me surprised.
In defense of those who truly wanted to believe a 2023 MY release date (myself included), any possible sign that 2023 was "the year" just added fuel to that fire.
I've temporarily gotten sidetracked with the bZ4X. If I was David from Automotive Press, I'd mention that I have a deposit on it.
It's one thing to hope, but it's another to whine and complain there's no info out there, in expecting Toyota or some magazine/site to hand out that info to you (not you specifically) on a platter. The magazines know little to nada and Toyota is not going to publicize such information in most cases. You gotta look for it very well or listen to/ask someone who does know.
And if and when someone who does know otherwise, tells them a specific timeline a little further out, citing inside sources, they dismiss them and complain "you ain't no YouTuber like..." or "show me the receipts", which at that point it just says enough about someone's obtuse and stubborn outlook. They liken themselves to smart skeptics, yet never hold any of these YT personalities nor credibility-bereft websites accountable in the same respect.
That is a large majority I encounter and frankly, I'm basically done, because I expect better from people. I've seen people with much more common sense in some spaces, especially one of the first forums I joined as an undergrad, centered around the big German 3.
Anyway, my issue with so many of these types, they are ready to trust some amateur with Wifi and a webcam, who might have nothing to do with Toyota. Yet someone who is likely a lot more informed and even mentions key program codes, they cast them off, simply because they aren't clickbait webcam jockeys.
I cannot feel sorry for such people if they get their hopes up and are later let down, by their own ignorance missing earlier cues from me or anyone else trying to lead them in the right direction.
Most of the commentary here is pretty sensible and on track, observant of the changes happening with Gen 6 development. It's the folks outside of here, who often don't make any real effort to find out concrete info and yet think, they can comment with authority on what is or isn't happening. Particularly when they absolutely know nothing and thus are misleading other people, to the point it starts to discredit me.
I keep things low key as an actively working industry member bound to my own set of NDAs and the like. It doesn't serve me well to be drawing unwanted attention to myself nor any of my sources.
The styling changes to the 6th Generation 4Runner were originally supposed to evolutionary per my intel in early 2020, when it was still a 2023 model. Some of the weird stuff I've heard lately, contradicts that. Plus a REALLY nice interior is coming!
Thank you, I appreciate that TexasFunRunner, but enough clowns out there do not and their ignorant BS, drowns out the effort that myself and a few others make, to keep people apprised of what's happening.
It becomes such a wasteful effort, if for every 10-20 of you being wise (on your own in many cases too), there are people who come out and parrot bad information, as if the obvious wasn't already mentioned.
It's gobsmacking how stupid folks can be on YouTube for one and garner a large audience for it. Casual (automotive) entertainment is an entirely separate matter, from someone using their uninformed opinion to spew nonsense.
Especially dimwits like RobMotive, for instance. And the associated viewers, who engage with someone like that, as if they are a well informed individual who has any iota of credibility on that subject.
Thanks.
It's very hard to ignore that, when it begins to dominate the conversation and drown out more credible information long term. The I-Told-You-So game is rearing its ugly head now, only after a YouTuber revealed by Toyota NY region dealers, that nothing TNGA-F body on frame outside of the 2023 Sequoia, is launching in 2022.
Despite that, you still have many folks making the dumb excuse in other videos, "Toyota is just keeping the 2023 4Runner a surprise". Instead of being cast out as the bad reasoning it is, it is being co-signed by many likes, plus the channel vlogger endorsing the claim as "credible".
To be frank, there is no way any other 2023 MY redesigns would be omitted from such a sheet, unless launching in CY2023 as 2023.5 or 2024MY vehicles. Surprises do not work for people training others to sell your future product and order more inventory.
YouTube is simply a huge factor in this issue and so is stupid TFL. People want easy info to access, without vetting it to be credible. Yet jump on the next person (me) poking a hole in those front page claims, in attempts to redirect them, being that the information is not sourced from a person privy to key insight.
Unfortunately, it's hard to continue ignoring, as I don't have the time to be wasting on getting such info out there, if way too many folks don't listen and instead make it worse, by constantly contradicting me and passing bad rumors around for others to easily trust.
A lot of them just don't bother to look around for new information and then complain about not knowing anything.
I had this issue with Nissan, when I knew a great deal about future product and wouldn't be taken seriously, until it was too late. I mentioned 400Z was not the real name 2 years ago IIRC, it was "Z", and got insulted many times over that, until Nissan officially announced Z in 2021. I had seen the car in 2019, as a design model behind closed doors and part of a Nissan presentation in early 2019. Dumb skepticism like that gets pretty old quick...
I never had this problem with German brands on German Car Forum, because the German companies are very transparent anyway to a reasonable degree for marketing purposes and easily aid anything I divulge as a matter of fact, with quick succession. Most of the people who follow German cars in such spaces, are thus used to the patterns of German automakers and predicting how they operate.
The American automotive press tends to be more eager to cover German developments with greater accuracy, than the indifferent laziness and obtuseness I see from them when it comes to anything Japanese or "Tier 2" in their eyes.
Toyota and Japanese automakers being so secretive, makes for me looking like I am talking about unicorns 24/7.
When I first posted here 5 years ago, the amount of vitriol directed my way was really rough around the edges, by some of those types I mentioned above (in disdain), being very present on this forum then. It's night and day today thankfully LOL.
Toyota's nature also makes it different to pass on, behind the scenes information successfully, which often hasn't been publicized yet.
As for the design, I'm not gonna be able to comment on the exterior at this point to that level of detail. To my knowledge, I had been told it was evolutionary in exterior design (like most TNGA redesigns). The interior is VERY luxurious though, from what I do hear! Very well executed from what I've been told and a bit tech laden.
And although 3rd generation might be considered iconic, it's not a main template for them to follow, when all generations still loosely follow the 2nd generation N150 design anyway. It's all about different ways to evolve that lineage.
I am not going to know that level of product planning at all, in regards to rust proofing nor would it come to mind, for me to ask someone on the project. This is a major redesign so it would make sense to align everything needed correctly, but I doubt the 5G N280 has these problems?
Yes, hybrid is an I4. I politely haven't pushed to know more about it, but it has a full EV mode.
Certainly, thanks Dave. You're not a Mopar guy by chance are you? Name seems familiar...
GX 550 is as I mentioned before. Takes on the mantle of Lexus's principal 4x4 utility vehicle and launches in early 2024, with a much boxier design according to those who been shown it since February 2021. There will be a GX550h as well. Both TTV6. You can see how far ahead of these cars are designed, by that first showcase being 3 years ahead! Many folks think I am talking jive at times, when I mentioned cars are designed very early.
I initiated that rumor I believe, as it was a secret among Lexus insiders prior to that. It's true and the design was already finished as early as 2020. It is targeting that Defender market directly though, but might still be a bit more buttoned up than the Defender.
You are such a keen observer to have even found this, haha. This is what I want for people, to catch stuff like this and be way ahead of everyone else, without being too obvious (to Toyota). Let me explain: That is a placeholder code of 610L (2), being for the actual 6G 4Runner. Being that this is one of those industry sites on a lower level, who has access to similar information I do. This is mostly correct info and they have similar information on other companies, which is somewhat concerning in some respects.
5th Generation debuted in November 2009 as 610L.
I'm aware of this, but how y'all found it is something else. An open secret to some degree, which does match some stuff planned officially.
Yes, I'll answer this:
780B (2) is a placeholding development code, for the successor to 780B aka the 3rd generation Tundra, developed as that. (2) is a redesigned vehicle. Typically this information is not public.
610L (2) refers to the replacement for 610L (5th generation 4Runner), being built in Guanajuato, Mexico from January 2024. Tahara is not shown for reasons chosen by Toyota, to not disclose production schedules for JPN.
Wow, you connected the dots! This, this is WHAT I hope for owners curious and in the dark on the future. Catching these things and piecing it together, like I used to do (and still do for competitive research).
And not just take some YouTubers word for it. This is the issue I have with them, lack of research ability on a semi-unknown entity. You put that together, 9 out 10 YTers or journalists, can't even do that and it's disappointing.
I've known that the development code for the 2010 4Runner N280 was 610L, which Toyota cleverly uses to mask the identity of a project. It's a formal codename, which eschews the production model/chassis code of N280. 150-Series Land Cruiser Prado was 611L. J150 GX460 was 837L IIRC.
Keep finding stuff like this in the most random places, you'll find a lot more even without access to industry databases or supplier network info. I wish folks knew how much is somewhat out there, if you use the right code words to track them.
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TexasFunRunner
New member
Thank you for the great update, I've been looking forward to owning a new 6th gen 4Runner for a some time, but now with all the reliability issues Toyota is having with the new TGNA platform Tundra, It gives me pause, I'm really starting to have my doubts if that is a smart move. I don't mine waiting for the 2nd year to work out the bugs, but maybe that is wishful thinking and you now have to wait until the 3rd or 4th year at the rate Toyota is going?
You have to wonder if Toyota has the capability any longer to build a reliable, new release vehicle. Is it a basic loss of talent in the design and testing process or is Mike Sweers pressured by Toyota corporate to squeeze budgets and deadlines, like every other American vehicle manufacturer, which Toyota America now seems to follow?
Another example, this is not good, when did you last see a Toyota not get a high score on Consumer Reports, the 2022 Tacoma only got at 51?
What's Wrong With the 2022 Toyota Tacoma's Reliability?
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Colorado buff
New member
Wow great update. Thanks!
Jetboy
New member
I wrote a comment down there about a test drive on a tundra, but I thought it really made me more sense to start a different thread in the general forum. Because it was only sort of related to this. The short version is finish quality control is not very good. So maybe a first year is something to avoid If small details are important to you.
And the V35A really is pretty fantastic to drive. It really needs to find its way into a 4runner.
And the V35A really is pretty fantastic to drive. It really needs to find its way into a 4runner.
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BlackWorksInc
New member
Yeah, the speculation train is all over the place. When I heard that we were delaying the Hybrid Tundras a year due to supply issues I figured the 6th gen was bumped to mid/late '23 at least. At this point I haven't gotten a solid answer on anything regarding release beyond it's not happening in '22, maybe '23. But I agree, it'd probably be best to just take advantage of the extra publicity as a '24 model being it's anniversary date.
As for powertrain, I haven't gotten a solid answer from anyone... it's clear Toyota wants to shift towards making everything a hybrid and probably just going with "small I4-Hybrid" and "big V6-Hybrid" packages for their vehicles (though the Corolla GR's 3cylinder is an interesting development). A lot of the training documentation, information sheets, and conversations I've had with visiting FTS and engineers seem to heavily imply that Toyota is going to try and use the V35A to replace the "big powerful" engine option in all their vehicles going forward.
I haven't heard anything solid yet beyond "maybe an I4-Hybrid" and "heard they were putting the V35A in there in some flavor." I wonder if they'll try and repeat the 5th gen's option when it first launched, that paltry I4 was not a good match for the porky 4Runner, but with a hybrid system behind it could be a fine general purpose powerplant for the majority of owners. I'm still hesitant on off-roading in a hybrid vehicle, let alone how much of a pain it probably will be to modify; but we'll just have to see when it launches... apparently people have been liking the lifted Rav4s, Highlanders, and Sienna hybrids we've done? As for the V35A... it's not a bad engine, certainty has protentional and pulls well once the turbos kick in full-bore. The biggest issue I have had with the new Tundras is the transmission tuning, it just lags on take-off and seems to need to drop too many gears from a dead stop. Though I will admit that the new ones we're getting in for PDI seem to be a little peppier? I don't know if it's because these are Limited/TRD Trims and they actually tune them different or if they've been updating the software as they go, or if all the first couple batches of Tundras we got were all duds on the turbos (come to think of it, we've replaced a lot of turbos lately; so I guess it could be possible?) When we first started getting the new Tundra they seemed to need almost a full 4 seconds from a dead stop to really "pull" (what I mean by that is the combination of the transmission trying to decide what it wants to do and the turbo lag), the Limiteds and TRDs seem to be
Anyways, once they work out the bugs and if they tune the transmission logic better, I think the V35A/10spd combo will be a solid workhorse for Toyota.
But yeah, I agree with you; I hear so many weird things from Sales and other people asking me about new stuff from Toyota. It's bad enough the company is so compartmentalized that communication has been one of it's biggest issues for the last decade, but the amount of weird misinformation and speculation that people come up with is really weird. I had predicted that Toyota would go towards the EcoBoost route back before the rumors of the new Tundra started bubbling up once I saw Lexus was going that route and Toyota was being more scrupulous about hybrid tech. I also laughed at a lot of people who thought Toyota was going to go all EV anytime soon, having dealt with the nightmare that was the Rav4 EV and seeing how Tesla and Toyota Engineers got along, and how Tesla burned Toyota in that deal... I had no doubts Mr. Toyoda was going to avoid Tesla-esque EV tech and double-down on Hybrid/Plug-In Hybrids and Hydrogen cars to thumb his nose at Musk. Gotta take all news these days with a bucket of salt and do your own verification and research, can't take anyone's word for stuff. Unless you hear it from an engineer actually working on the project at the time, assume it's been filtered through dozens of people with their opinions/speculation/motivations melted into it.
As for powertrain, I haven't gotten a solid answer from anyone... it's clear Toyota wants to shift towards making everything a hybrid and probably just going with "small I4-Hybrid" and "big V6-Hybrid" packages for their vehicles (though the Corolla GR's 3cylinder is an interesting development). A lot of the training documentation, information sheets, and conversations I've had with visiting FTS and engineers seem to heavily imply that Toyota is going to try and use the V35A to replace the "big powerful" engine option in all their vehicles going forward.
I haven't heard anything solid yet beyond "maybe an I4-Hybrid" and "heard they were putting the V35A in there in some flavor." I wonder if they'll try and repeat the 5th gen's option when it first launched, that paltry I4 was not a good match for the porky 4Runner, but with a hybrid system behind it could be a fine general purpose powerplant for the majority of owners. I'm still hesitant on off-roading in a hybrid vehicle, let alone how much of a pain it probably will be to modify; but we'll just have to see when it launches... apparently people have been liking the lifted Rav4s, Highlanders, and Sienna hybrids we've done? As for the V35A... it's not a bad engine, certainty has protentional and pulls well once the turbos kick in full-bore. The biggest issue I have had with the new Tundras is the transmission tuning, it just lags on take-off and seems to need to drop too many gears from a dead stop. Though I will admit that the new ones we're getting in for PDI seem to be a little peppier? I don't know if it's because these are Limited/TRD Trims and they actually tune them different or if they've been updating the software as they go, or if all the first couple batches of Tundras we got were all duds on the turbos (come to think of it, we've replaced a lot of turbos lately; so I guess it could be possible?) When we first started getting the new Tundra they seemed to need almost a full 4 seconds from a dead stop to really "pull" (what I mean by that is the combination of the transmission trying to decide what it wants to do and the turbo lag), the Limiteds and TRDs seem to be
Anyways, once they work out the bugs and if they tune the transmission logic better, I think the V35A/10spd combo will be a solid workhorse for Toyota.
But yeah, I agree with you; I hear so many weird things from Sales and other people asking me about new stuff from Toyota. It's bad enough the company is so compartmentalized that communication has been one of it's biggest issues for the last decade, but the amount of weird misinformation and speculation that people come up with is really weird. I had predicted that Toyota would go towards the EcoBoost route back before the rumors of the new Tundra started bubbling up once I saw Lexus was going that route and Toyota was being more scrupulous about hybrid tech. I also laughed at a lot of people who thought Toyota was going to go all EV anytime soon, having dealt with the nightmare that was the Rav4 EV and seeing how Tesla and Toyota Engineers got along, and how Tesla burned Toyota in that deal... I had no doubts Mr. Toyoda was going to avoid Tesla-esque EV tech and double-down on Hybrid/Plug-In Hybrids and Hydrogen cars to thumb his nose at Musk. Gotta take all news these days with a bucket of salt and do your own verification and research, can't take anyone's word for stuff. Unless you hear it from an engineer actually working on the project at the time, assume it's been filtered through dozens of people with their opinions/speculation/motivations melted into it.
Yea, it's tough for every manufacturer now in my opinion. The amount of tech needed, emissions and economy regulations that have to be hit, more engine parts, etc. that are needed nowadays leaves so much to have a potential failure. Cars aren't allowed to be "simple" anymore like we have with the 5th gen or previous gen Tundra. Toyota will hopefully figure it out in the next year or two. The alternative is probably still worse in regards to reliability. Unfortunately, us as the consumer gets stuck with the financial burden for out of warranty repairs and original cost of the vehicle for a difference of a few MPGs. The emissions part is a plus at least. People now ditch cars early because of this, so you have to make two cars that could have been one if you just made it reliable.
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TexasFunRunner
New member
What are these "lifted" models of which you speak, are these factory trim levels or aftermarket lift kits added by the dealers?
BlackWorksInc
New member
Our dealership installs Icon and Ironman lifts on vehicles as an optional package. We also do bumpers, winches, lights, and superchargers from Magnuson.
TexasFunRunner
New member
Thank you, do the lifts on the Rav4 make for a harsher ride?
BlackWorksInc
New member
They seem a bit harsher, but a large majority could be because our sales department insists on LT off road tires on a lot of them. But I may not be the best judge since I drive a lifted 4th gen on 35's so I'm kind of used to a stiffer ride. Lol
I should also note that I think the biggest lift we've done on a Rav4 is maybe 1.5"-2"?
