A Truly Fair Mechanic?

JeepKiller

New member
So I've been evaluating my plans for the future and I'm leaning towards getting my Bachelors in Mechanical Engineering. I'm good at math and at wrapping my head around "why stuff works" which from what I've read are main components in the courses I'll be required to take so no worries there.
I was wondering
A. If I were to get this degree would it help me in becoming a self employed automotive mechanic? (I know there are several courses and certifications I'll need to become a licensed, rebuttable mechanic. I know that I'll also need a great deal of capital to start my own shop along with some experience working at a dealership/private mechanic. So those aren't what I'm looking for.)

And
B. Is the idea of a truly "fair" mechanic in existence anywhere? One that doesn't charge only by the hour, but the rigor of the job? While this would drive your profits down it would also increase the amount of business you would get which would offset the profit lost. (I know everyone wants to make a profit/living, but it's a little ridiculous when you have your car towed to a mechanic because it won't start and he simply pops the hood, gives it a once over and then plugs your MAF back in, and then charges you his full hourly rate. Definitely not me there, just a dumb coworker. I've yet to find a fair mechanic around my area.)

Sincerely, An aspiring teen
 
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getting an engineering degree would definitely be a plus if you want to be a mechanic (I'm assuming thats what you want to do more or less). It also gives you a back up if you change your mind because you still have a great degree.

The part I'm more interested in talking about is the "fair mechanic". In my experience the best and most honest mechanics are the ones who do what they like and are "car people". The best of the best seem to be the ones that only work on what they like. It could be foreign cars, Yotas, vintage muscle etc. but thats their passion. Im sure you've met some of these people that are just genuine and want to help you with your car. People like Kurt at Cruiser Outfitters and Richard Stubbs at Stubbs welding come to mind. They love what they do and want to help others enjoy Toyotas like they do.
Just my .02 cents
 
A fair mechanic that is a GOOD mechanic is almost non existent. It's a very broken industry that pretty much doesn't allow it. Low level and new mechanics get paid hourly, they can take their time, learn, and do things right. Once you gain experience you go to "flat rate" which means you get paid on a per job basis. Lets say a valve cover gasket pays 2 hours, if it takes you 4 hours you get paid for 2, if it takes half an hour you get paid for to. Because of that it's in your techs best interest to cut as many corners as possible without the customer noticing. Cleaning up the oil after fixing the leak is money out of their pocket, cleaning up the residue from old wheel weights before balancing tires is money out of their pocket, test driving a car is money out of their pocket, double checking work is money out of their pocket. If a check engine light comes on that means your car has detected something that is causing it to pollute and it's not currently meeting emissions standards, after fixing it you can reset the readiness which is basically forcing the car to run it's self tests on every monitored emissions system to verify the car is fixed. While that is clearly a good idea if you choose to do that you're basically donating your time because you don't get paid for it. There is a clear financial intensive for a tech to sell good easy work, ignore problems that don't pay well, and do as little as possible without the customer detecting their short comings. It's an industry where the highest paid technician is always whichever piece of shit is the most willing and eager to **** over customers.

It's the reason I hate this industry. I'm very much a quality over quantity type of person, I always have been, I always will be. My top priority is fixing the car completely and correctly the first time, I have very high attention to detail and I don't get come backs because they aren't fixed right, ever. My cars are always fixed right the first time and cleaner then when I got them. For years and years that mentality has cost me money, but eventually it did pay off and got me recognized, it's how I ended up in Foreman and Team Leader type positions.
 
For your first question, it actually depends on where you want to be a mechanic. Maybe some place like Ferrari, Mercedes, and/or Fisker are looking for a BA in Mechanical Engineering for their mechanics. But to be honest, most placed won't really care one way or the other because it's not as important to them as ASE Certifications, Manufacturer Specific Certifications (if you're looking at dealers or specialty shops), and years of experience. That being said, don't let that discourage you at all, because that's a very useful skillset to have regardless if it helps you get hired, not to mention you may find work that isn't exactly "mechanic's work." For example a while back I wanted a position as a vehicle test technician at Tesla, I'd work sort of as a mechanic with engineers to build, test, disassemble, ect. designs and components to design/build better parts/vehicles.

As for your second question, you have to realize that there is two ways a mechanic is paid. The first being Flat Rate (also known as "piece-meal"), this is the most common way to charge a customer and pay a mechanic because it is theoretically the "fairest" way to value job. The basic idea is that on average it should take a mechanic lets say a 1hr to replace an alternator on a Corolla, some days the mechanic gets it done in 30minutes and other days he's stuck on it for 1.5hrs. But it wouldn't be fair to pay the mechanic less wages because he's efficient and quick, or to charge a customer extra because he's being slow that day. So instead they look at the "Flate Rate" manual and determine that the job is valued at 1hr of labor and the customer is charged accordingly. This way the customer and technician are guaranteed a consistent cost/wage for any given job and it's not easily manipulated to fleece the customer or mechanic (it does happen and we can go into the politics of it later if you want a more "real world" explanation.) So basically if I do 8 Corolla alternators in one day at 30minutes each I've made 8hrs of pay in only 4hrs, this is why you may hear some mechanics say "I get paid like $50 an hour!" The reality is that they are probably paid $30 per hour, but their efficiency in the flat rate system is so good they are making more than 8hrs a day (but on slow days it hurts you pretty hard because you're not making your full wage; so this system is better for busy shops.)

The second method is simply paying the mechanic a flat hourly wage. Theoretically this creates a "better" mechanic because they are not constrained by trying to rush the job within the Flat Rate to make hours. The mechanic is paid a fair sum and can take a reasonable amount of time to do the job the correct way with much less pressure. The customer is still charged from the Flat Rate manual for the value of the work (unless some special things to be addressed, like let's say a custom port & polish job, ect.) This is typically seen in "higher end" shops that work on custom vehicles and so on because they want to focus more on detail than volume.

So those are the two theoretical/real world ways mechanics get paid (I'm not aware of any mechanics except for maybe Union/Government/Fleet Mechanics that get paid Salary, but I only have heard of one Fleet shop that did that.) Now on to what you mean by a "fair mechanic."

You need to realize that as a mechanic you are going to be underpaid for most intents and purposes in the general automotive repair field. A shop/dealer may charge $150 per hour, but you will only see maybe $30 out of that 1hr of work if you're lucky depending on which pay scale you're on (I'll be honest $30/hr is really high for most places), out of that $150 there's environmental fees & overhead to cover, and of course the service writer's commission (most are paid on a commission basis) and finally profit for the dealer.

If you're running you're own shop you'll find that while it's maybe not a bad thing to waive that $150/hr diagnostic fee for a simple fuse every once in a blue moon. You do need to pay the bills, equipment in this line of work is not cheap. As a mechanic you're talking easily $10k for a general assortment of quality tools and a toolbox (Matco, Mac, Snap-On, ect.) As a shop owner, you're talking even more money; for example last I checked I believe the TIS Techstream 2.0 (the full scantool with base and software) is $8k, not including the something like $1500 per year subscription to keep your TIS software license and access to the TIS repair network for software updates and so on. Then you need at least a 4-Channel DSO (Digital Oscilloscope) for modern vehicles, if you are not using one on modern CAN vehicles for your diagnostics, you're going to fall behind fast. The PicoScope is the typical "go to" brand and just the base kit with 4-Channel box and leads can hit $5k not including a laptop to run it on; plus the more complex additions you may want to add. So now as a shop owner you're easily in $100k or more in shop equipment, lifts, machines, ect. that you need to pay off before your company even turns a profit. Makes not charging that $150/hr for that fuse a bit more difficult to justify (again there's a lot more to consider as well, such as giving this "freebie" may establish them as a loyal customer, ect. but we're not getting into that yet) when you need to pay the mechanic for his time and cover the cost of the shop.

~

I think I'll stop there because I don't want to overload you with too much information or delve into the "workings" of the automotive trade as you haven't gotten that far in your questions yet.

I will mention that while I am a Dealership Mechanic (who is paid flat rate), that doesn't mean you can't be a "fair mechanic" within that system. I do do my best to fist a customer's vehicle to the best of my abilities and to my standard of quality (despite it usually meaning I don't make "hours" like my coworkers) and I do often try my best educate and explain things to customers if they have questions so they are given all the information to make a decision. I have advised service writers in the past to maybe not charge a customer the full diagnostic fee or anything at all for a simple "blown fuse" (at the cost of me losing that billable time off my own paycheck) because I would not feel comfortable treating a customer like that. While the politics and realities of being a Dealer Mechanic are not always "fair" or skirt around that ethical grey area. I still strive to do what I believe is the right thing or what I would do on my own vehicle; as that usually ends up being a good ethical code to live by. Basically if you focus more on striving to be a "fair mechanic" you'll end up being one despite wherever you end up, customers and employers may notice that and in some cases you may even get offers from others to be part of a "better" environment.

Post Note-
[MENTION=113771]AudiTech[/MENTION] got his post in before mine, but he's right. It's not easy to just label someone a "Fair" or "Good" Mechanic, because the industry does not breed these qualities let alone care about them. You can be a "Good" or "Fair" mechanic, but depending on which side of the coin you're on it can easily be a "Bad/Inefficient/Non-Profitable" or "Foolish/Naive/Easily Manipulated" Mechanic. The industry has gone in a direction that makes a black & white distinction like "good/bad" mechanic a more grey area. That's mainly why I said you should focus more on maintaining your personal standard of quality and ethics and trying to find a place that can accommodate those qualities and not try and not the other way around. You'll either be recognized and rewarded or you'll be punished and beaten down (in which case that place of employment no longer lines up with your ethical views and you should probably move on to a better shop in my opinion.) So I guess in the end being your idea of a "Fair Mechanic" means having a strong Will and core values, which isn't at all a bad thing. :)

(The "Flat Rate Mentality" is part of the reason I had to have my finger tip reattached a little over a month ago! :P )
 
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[MENTION=108085]98WhiteT4R[/MENTION]
That's what I was thinking, if I ended up not liking the system Id have something great to fall back on.
[MENTION=113771]AudiTech[/MENTION]
I definitely see how that would make you hate it, I'm in the same boat as you with the quality over quantity. I really wish it wasn't so hard and inefficient to take pride in your work by paying attention to detail.
[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]
I've always been familiar with the flat rate system, but thanks for the deeper explanation. Now I see how SO many "good" people or guys that seem genuine would be tempted to charge hour rates for 15 minutes instead of giving them a "freebie". Especially starting off.

Hm, thanks guys that gives me a lot to ponder. I'm probably going to pursue a degree in ME but I might rethink being a self employed mechanic or even making a career out of it. I'll eventually end up in a dealership but I'm not sure I'll want to make that my career.
 
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[MENTION=108085]98WhiteT4R[/MENTION]
That's what I was thinking, if I ended up not liking the system Id have something great to fall back on.
[MENTION=113771]AudiTech[/MENTION]
I definitely see how that would make you hate it, I'm in the same boat as you with the quality over quantity. I really wish it wasn't so hard and inefficient to take pride in your work by paying attention to detail.
[MENTION=66389]BlackWorksInc[/MENTION]
I've always been familiar with the flat rate system, but thanks for the deeper explanation. Now I see how SO many "good" people or guys that seem genuine would be tempted to charge hour rates for 15 minutes instead of giving them a "freebie". Especially starting off.

Hm, thanks guys that gives me a lot to ponder. I'm probably going to pursue a degree in ME but I might rethink being a self employed mechanic or even making a career out of it. I'll eventually end up in a dealership but I'm not sure I'll want to make that my career.

Glad we can help, the industry has changed a lot since the "good 'ol days" and it will continue to change as cars become more commodity like cellphones or laptops and less mechanically inherent.

If you do want to focus on the automotive trade, I do recommend investing/studying the following:

-Computer Networking (you don't have to be a Network IT guy, but if you have a good working knowledge of how computer networking works, twisted pairs, communication, and voltage sensitivity; it will go a LONG way in your diagnostics and understanding of most vehicles made in the last 10~20 years and those that will be made.)

-Computer Operation/Software (Again you don't need a degree in computer programming here, but understanding things like an Audio Headunit in a Corolla might have a corrupted software/hardware in it's Bluetooth module because it can only output an impossible 00.00.00.00.00.00 MAC address and will never connect to the customer's phone can save you a ton of time in wasted diagnostics and headaches trying to call TAS for help. Not to mention you can learn how to "think" like the computer and understand that perhaps the vehicle is not misfiring because Cylinder#5 Injector is NOT firing, but the ECM turned Cylinder#5 Injector off BECAUSE it detected a misfire.)

-Metalworking (A basic knowledge of welding, Machining, and other manufacturing processes is a VERY useful skill set to have under your belt. I have no doubt it will be covered in your mechanical engineering degree, but you may want to really practice/experiment more in these fields because as a mechanical engineer or mechanic being able to see things like casting defects, heat affected zone failures, and other manufacturing/engineering defects will help in your diagnostics and repairs.)

-Understanding Electrical theory as it applies to the Automotive/Industrial world (Mainly because there's the way electrical theory is taught in every other field and the way it is taught in the automotive trade, it's slightly different [i.e. mechanics are taught electricity flows from Positive to Negative, this is called "Conventional Theory;" while the rest of the scientific/industrial world is usually taught the correct "Electron Theory" that states that electrons actually flow from Negative to Positive.)

-Learning how to use a Digital Multi-Meter and Digital Storage Osciliscope (Again, I have a feeling this will be covered some in your education; but if you can afford to, buy your own quality DMM and DSO and really play with them and understand them. These are two critical tools of the modern automotive trade and a LOT of older and current mechanics do not understand how to use these tools or do not want to bother learning. A strong understanding of these two critical pieces of equipment will open up your world of diagnostic possibilities and ability to attack problems [for example I could go on for a while about how cool Compression Waveform Analysis is and how critical a diagnostic tool it can be], not to mention it will put in a league above most mechanics in terms of experience and ability.)

-Enroll in a program like Carquest Technical Institute (Yes, the Carquest that sells auto parts actually has seminars about every other month on various technology and techniques. You pay for a year of classes and attend usually a 2 night course; classes can be anything from "how to use your DMM", "Asian/European CAN Bus and Network Communications Diagnostics", to "Ford Power Stroke Diesel Diagnostics and Repair." It's basically training to keep you updated on diagnostic/repair techniques and new automotive technology. While I may work for a Toyota Dealership, much of the knowledge I have garnered over the years have allowed me to effectively work on most brands of vehicles, like when I did many of our Used Vehicle Inspections & Repairs; as well as apply what I learned to working on Toyotas.)

-Have fun (This is the hardest one, because the industry is geared to forcing you to fit the "Flat Rate Mentality" model and most places will quickly burn out and/or beat down many aspiring mechanics. Many days I question why I even bother going into work to just be beaten down by the politics and typical BS that makes my day to day job unenjoyable. But there's times when I get a customer's car on a trailer in the morning and I shake their hand and watch them drive off in that same car that reminds me why I enjoy what I do. Or the times I get a really weird, oddball vehicle that has stumped most people and caused me to rip out my hair; but thanks to my enjoyment of challenges and puzzles I can figure out what the problem is when most people can't even begin to attack the problem. Remember WHY I enjoy being a mechanic and WHY I love working with my hands and on mechanical things, makes it so much easier to stay focused on maintaining my standard of quality and my will to keep doing what I do despite the crap around me.)
 
If you want to be an automotive mechanic in the traditional sense AND you want to own your own garage some day getting your BSME is not a good idea. At all. Why? First, just because you are "good" at math is just one little part of the equation. Also you are misinformed if you think you will learn "why" stuff works with your BSME.

If you learn nothing in this thread learn this:

"An engineering degree in any discipline means you have the ability to learn, nothing else." You will learn how to problem solve a specific way that is fairly unique and fairly hard to do. Remember for every eight guys who qualify to start an engineering program (high ACT score, all the prerequisites, etc) only ONE will complete the course requirements for a BS in engineering from an ABET certified college or university. Most of the others change majors to teaching, accounting or something else besides engineering. Why? Because it's hard!

Becoming a good mechanic is not easy and the skill set is way different from an engineer. There are very few engineers who can competently wrench. Really. Those that can will end up in a job as a field engineer working with the design engineers. Conversely there are very few auto mechanics who can be engineers. Neither job is harder or easier but the skill set is different.

Do like Blackworks said: Go to a Tech school and get your proper certifications. You will also learn how to work on vehicles. Then get a job doing it so you can gain experience which is very valuable. If you eventually want to open your own shop then go get a degree in Business Management. An MBA after that would be nice but definitely not required.

As far as a "fair" mechanic that has to do with, as Blackworks said, how you are getting paid and it also has to do with what kind of person you are. If you have high ethical standards then you won't screw your customers anyway. If you are pond scum then you will. Simple.
 
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[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] I'm more or less set on this degree because of how much stuff I could do with it and the amount of companies I could work with/for. I love working with my hands and I've been able to problem solve nearly every mechanical or electrical problem I've had on my 4Runner so I was wondering if I could tie the two together. Looks like I'll get my ME degree and do something other than a mechanic as my career, but I could always get my certification as a back up.
 
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] I'm more or less set on this degree because of how much stuff I could do with it and the amount of companies I could work with/for. I love working with my hands and I've been able to problem solve nearly every mechanical or electrical problem I've had on my 4Runner so I was wondering if I could tie the two together. Looks like I'll get my ME degree and do something other than a mechanic as my career, but I could always get my certification as a back up.

That's fine but that was not your question in your OP. You asked if the degree would help a auto mechanic. No it won't.

You also asked if it would help if you owned your own shop. Again, no it won't. There are far better degrees that will help you manage a small business.

The most important thing about having your BSME is it will tell your prospective employer that you have the ability to learn if they would hire you.
 
anything that I would say was mostly already covered above.

if you like fixing things, automotive or otherwise, AND you can make a living doing it, then go for it.

but my advice is to make sure its something you want to, and enjoy doing. its not an easy job, its not glamorous, and most people don't like or trust us, as is evident by your OP, and many other threads/posts on this site. there is money to be made for sure, but its not a big money job.

you do it because you love it, AND ALSO get paid to do it.
 
That's fine but that was not your question in your OP. You asked if the degree would help a auto mechanic. No it won't.

You also asked if it would help if you owned your own shop. Again, no it won't. There are far better degrees that will help you manage a small business.

The most important thing about having your BSME is it will tell your prospective employer that you have the ability to learn if they would hire you.
Hm, thats good to know. I would have thought the degree would help with at least the mechanic side of it providing I took those sorts of ME classes. Thanks for the heads up!
[MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION]
If you love what you do you will never work a day in your life. That's kinda my take on it.
 
Hm, thats good to know. I would have thought the degree would help with at least the mechanic side of it providing I took those sorts of ME classes. Thanks for the heads up!
[MENTION=84120]nevada[/MENTION]
If you love what you do you will never work a day in your life. That's kinda my take on it.

I have went through it and my son is currently a senior working on his BSME. This means I have went through it twice lol. There are lots of labs (vibration, physics, fluids, etc) but very few "hands on" gonna learn specifics kind of classes. For example in Thermodynamics you will learn lots of theory like hot goes to cold and cold never goes to hot. While that's great to know when you are designing something it does not help much when replacing a blower motor in a 4Runner.

Don't get me wrong getting an engineering degree is great IF you want to be an engineer. Now, there are all kinds of engineers within the same discipline too, like for mechanical there is sales, field, research, product design, production, shop, test, etc and they all take different skills even though you start with the same engineering degree! Good luck. Have you taken your ACT yet?
 
anything that I would say was mostly already covered above.

if you like fixing things, automotive or otherwise, AND you can make a living doing it, then go for it.

but my advice is to make sure its something you want to, and enjoy doing. its not an easy job, its not glamorous, and most people don't like or trust us, as is evident by your OP, and many other threads/posts on this site. there is money to be made for sure, but its not a big money job.

you do it because you love it, AND ALSO get paid to do it.

I had a long-winded life story typed out, but I've decided to just agree with this succinct post.

With one exception: If a Mechanic is highly knowledgeable and skilled, and they find or create the right situation, they can make very good money, ethically.
 
I had a long-winded life story typed out, but I've decided to just agree with this succinct post.

With one exception: If a Mechanic is highly knowledgeable and skilled, and they find or create the right situation, they can make very good money, ethically.
oh, absolutely. but you will have to work for it.
 
Wait a second here... So you want to get a bachelor's in mechanical engineering to be an automotive technician, correct? You do realize that you are looking at the wrong major for your intended field, right? Not many mechanics I know studied mechanical engineering... Don't get me wrong, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't help, but ME is not exactly focused on careers in that field.
 
You can go to community college for two years to become an auto mechanic. If you survive freshman year in a college engineering program you will probably develop some different interests. You can get a job in ME and make $60-$80k toward the beginning of your career and keep automotive work as a hobby. There are tons of automotive forums and I have the impression that automotive work doesn't pay all that well and it wears out your body.

There are a couple of universities that have cooperative programs with auto manufacturers with engineering programs. Mercedes Benz has a cooperative program with U of Alabama where you spend a semester in Germany. BMW works with a lot of schools and has a cooperative program at U of South Carolina. They also partner with some community colleges if you want to repair BMW's. I'm sure other manufacturers have similar programs.

U of Alabama is one of the only schools left that give full or partial tuition scholarships to out of state students. If you need college money, check them out.

My son has a friend at VA Tech that made $22/hr last summer plus living expenses for an engineering internship after sophomore year. He was not with an auto manufacturer but you can see the possible income is pretty good.

Engineering programs are pretty competitive and if you are a senior you ought to try applying Early Action. The deadlines are coming up. At most schools it's Nov. 1.
 

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