Aftermarket v8 Header interest?

[mole177]

Since aftermarket headers for the Tundra does not fit our 4th gen 4runners, I want to gauge an interest of who would be interested in this project.

At the moment this is an idea. If there is enough interest and some ideas well enough to make it to the drawing boards, a prototype can be made.

The company that has interest in our project is http://www.mazzurisuper.com/

They just finished a set of headers for the Lexus IS 300 with some nice gains dyno proven.

here's a picture of the header

 

[Casper]

I would be but as someone thats already gone this route with a set of headers from JBA (purchased for cheap) and then did some small work with them, you arent going to be able to get larger primaries in there.

 

[OUTRNNR]

I am extremely interested. If they can work out the space issue...

 

[mole177]

I would be but as someone thats already gone this route with a set of headers from JBA (purchased for cheap) and then did some small work with them, you arent going to be able to get larger primaries in there.

you dont happen to know who this person is would you? or how long ago this was?

larger diameter or not, it would be nice to upgrade headers and get rid of unecessary cats while in the process.

 

[Casper]

I actually tried this with a set of JBA Tunda Headers (P/N 2011)...

The problems that you have is that you dont have enough room to run larger diameter primaries due to the clearance issues already previously mentioned.

The only way to really gain anything would be to use a thinner wall thickness and keep nearly the same manifold profile. In addition, by running larger primaries you would want to put a longer initial run in that primary thus creating more of a 120 degree header design. A shorty header and nothing like a more power producing long tube design would need to be used as with the 2uz out of the tundra and sequoia.

If it can be done (i have my reservations to it) it would also have to be a 4-1 design instead of a 4-2-1 design to maximize clearance. The left side has issues with the steering rack and the right has issues with the ladder cross member and the frame rail.

The 4-1 design would be great for those of us living at WOT but those interested in better low end torque and mid range power would be left as a 4-1 design is really optimized for that in the upper rev band and at WOT. Dyno plots of the 2011 headers on a 2005 Tundra show gains starting at about 3500rpm (or more than half way up the rev band).

the #-1 design is the same as seen in the engine setup above except this time its a 3-1 design and looking at the dyno plots you can see that at about 3500rpm the headers start making power and go to redline. While the larger diplacement of the 2uz engine would benefit more than the 3.0I-6 of the Ie300 but i think those looking for more power from towing are going to be disappointed.

If these guys are willing to try, im down for it. Taking out the 3stg cats would also need to be done as im almost positive that you could pick up fairly decent power just by removing the twin cats and running a single high-flow metallic substrate cat.

Im sure that I could have modified the tundras to work but with out all the proper tools for the job (dyno, mandrel bender and the like) I dont know how much it actually would have gained. In addition a new car to play with and an increasing work load kinda diverted my interest in the project.

Here is the article of the Tundra with pictures of the OEM manifolds directly next to the 2011 JBA shorty headers.
http://www.jbaheaders.com/articles/4wdsuv_1005.pdf

 

[mole177]

casper, thanks for the informative article.

i have confidence that something can be thought of.

do you know how the JBA's are/were modified to fit the 4runner?

 

[Casper]

casper, thanks for the informative article.

i have confidence that something can be thought of.

do you know how the JBA's are/were modified to fit the 4runner?

I had to cut the merge collectors off and then would have had to reweld them back on since the angles for the primaries are more horizontal for the tundra and are a little more vertical (a few degrees needed downward for the 4runner).

Mole, if you can get these guys to build some off an engine mock up and have no clearance issues, im down for it. The problem that we (as a whole) are going to run into is that the AF ratios are going to run really lean at that point and we would need to find some sort of correction for that, like Conner's (outrunner) AFR controller and have it tuned accordingly.

 

[mole177]

casper, thanks again.

however... im wondering how lean are we running in mild bolt-ons as is.

can installing headers make us run that much leaner and head towards a danger zone?

-precautiously wondering.

 

[Casper]

casper, thanks again.

however... im wondering how lean are we running in mild bolt-ons as is.

can installing headers make us run that much leaner and head towards a danger zone?

-precautiously wondering.

With simple bolt ons, most current ecu's can adjust fuel flow to compensate for small increases in intake and exhaust flow. When you run headers though you generally run greater than 30% more exhaust velocity and flow thus creating a 30% leaner situation. So if you are running a 12-12.5 at WOT running just 30% greater can run the risk of pre ignition or even detonation. Granted Toyota uses pretty good knock sensors to adjust timing but not something that I would care to mess with. In addition, by running some sort of AFR/MAF controller you can even adjust a bit more and pick up an extra 10-15 hp (on most v8 applications) by overriding the OEM ECU tune and adjusting properly.

 

[mole177]

you don't happen to know if piggy back air/fuel controllers work well with 4runner ecm/ecu's do you?

I had a solara before this and the piggyback i used was apex-i's safc... it can cut fuel no prob, but adding was the problem... (but then again this was only the safc...)

are there other controllers beside's greddy e-manage or split fire ss?

or can there be a more mechanical way of correcting of running lean?

 

[Casper]

Im not sure what would be needed honestly.

Im not sure if a piggyback or tandem controller would be needed or something much more directly involved with the MAF sensor.

HKS has the PFC F-Con Programmed Fuel Computer that is a interrupter for the signals of the stock ECU

Apex'i has the S-AFC and V-AFC

Greddy with the E-switch

and of course what Connor used

Split Second


On the mechanical side, you could run a FPR, pressure riser, to help offset some of the lean condition. Hell, im not even sure what would happen with the stock toyota ECU to tell you the truth (i could adjust enough--doubt it, but it could). Im just going on experience with my comments in this thread.


those are all the ones i know about...

 

[tomhaney1]

Since aftermarket headers for the Tundra does not fit our 4th gen 4runners, I want to gauge an interest of who would be interested in this project.

At the moment this is an idea. If there is enough interest and some ideas well enough to make it to the drawing boards, a prototype can be made.

The company that has interest in our project is http://www.mazzurisuper.com/

They just finished a set of headers for the Lexus IS 300 with some nice gains dyno proven.

here's a picture of the header

Damn, that is pretty good. My only question is how the exhaust setup would play out (header back)?

 

[Casper]

Tom,

always good to see another Vegas-ite on the board. As for how it SHOULD word from the merge collectors back, I would suggest running a single high flow metalic substrate cat and then having a new merge area just before the muffler constructed.

 

[tomhaney1]

Tom,

always good to see another Vegas-ite on the board. As for how it SHOULD word from the merge collectors back, I would suggest running a single high flow metalic substrate cat and then having a new merge area just before the muffler constructed.

Same to you as well! I personally would prefer true dual exhaust but that would require two cats and probably new computer programming...what is your take on the logistics of that?

 

[Casper]

I would think that its possible.... instead of using one large oval muffler, something like borla XR1's with an AR20 or AR25 resonator after it to take down some of the noise.

Im going to actually pull out my magnaflow and run a replacment pipe (no muffler at all) and see how loud it is.

 

[tomhaney1]

I would think that its possible.... instead of using one large oval muffler, something like borla XR1's with an AR20 or AR25 resonator after it to take down some of the noise.

Im going to actually pull out my magnaflow and run a replacment pipe (no muffler at all) and see how loud it is.

Ok, so it would be possible. Let me know how you (and the neighbors) like the no muffler idea!

 

[OUTRNNR]

you don't happen to know if piggy back air/fuel controllers work well with 4runner ecm/ecu's do you?

I had a solara before this and the piggyback i used was apex-i's safc... it can cut fuel no prob, but adding was the problem... (but then again this was only the safc...)

are there other controllers beside's greddy e-manage or split fire ss?

or can there be a more mechanical way of correcting of running lean?

The split second unit has been working great. I didn't install it, but it didn't look too hard, just tapping a couple wires that run into the ECU. I also bought the one with a MAP sensor so it will be a standalone fuel control unit when I supercharge.

 

[Casper]

I think im going to go rip off the muffler now and see how it sounds... something like a header dump. I still need to see where to get about 30" of 2.5" as a replacement for the muffler.


*edited* Just tried and Magnaflow doesnt joke around with the company that makes the clamps for their exhausts. The name "Accuseal" is easily seen across them and its easy to see why..they dont want to be removed once its on. I tried to muscle and WD40 it off but its going to take an airgun or impact wrench to loosen them up.

 

[mole177]

vegas folks: i seem to find myself in henderson a lot...

 

[Casper]

WEll since Vegas is a seemingly central local for us performance nuts...

321 960 1089 (Rob)

ring me up sometime...i maybe flying or not, hard to say.