Am I getting screwed? (ABS vs Non-ABS)

[Toya!]

Hey everyone, so I am running into an issue with the stealership.

For some background, I bought my '99 limited about 2 months ago. Bought Frank (my rigs name) with a horribly soft brake pedal. Flushed the brake system and noticed my MC had a leak so I replaced it with an OEM unit. Brakes are still soft. Replaced my wheel cylinders and cleaned the drums, still soft. adjusted my drums and parking brake a handful of times, still soft. Then researched and found air could be locked in my ABS pump. Come to learn my ABS system isn't working. No ABS light, no codes from the diagnostic ports both OBDII and engine bay diagnostic port. Replaced the ABS Relay, the ABS ECU, and the ABS pump from a part out, still soft brakes and no ABS.

So I bit the bullet and decided to take it to my local dealership to have a professional take a look. They called me back to prove my thoughts and my ABS pump is not priming/pressuring the system. Was told the salvage items were not code written to my rig and that I need to buy a new ABS Pump for $1200 and installed and bled would be $1700. :wow:

This seems absurd for getting a system up that a lot of forum members intentionally disable. I am starting to think of just putting a Non-ABS master cylinder and a proportioning valve in and calling it a day. Am I being an idiot in thinking that? I love my 4R and just want to have confidence inspiring brakes.. :sad:

 

[RandyBobandy]

That’s the first I’ve ever heard of an abs pump needing to be coded for a specific 4Runner in the 3rd gens at least, and I kind of doubt it. It should be throwing a code, is the abs bulb burnt out or removed? On my ram work truck I had to replace an abs pump and before I reprogrammed it there were a whole mess of fault codes, I can’t imagine an ecu not recognizing an abs pump and throwing no codes

 

[Toya!]

That’s the first I’ve ever heard of an abs pump needing to be coded for a specific 4Runner in the 3rd gens at least, and I kind of doubt it. It should be throwing a code, is the abs bulb burnt out or removed? On my ram work truck I had to replace an abs pump and before I reprogrammed it there were a whole mess of fault codes, I can’t imagine an ecu not recognizing an abs pump and throwing no codes

Im right there with you. I know of one thread were the member swapped his out with a junkyard pump and it worked fine so I was a little taken back by them saying it needs to be written to the car. The bulb certainly is not out and again i used the diagnostic port in the engine bay, shorted ec1 and TC and got zero codes which was why I tried replacing the ECU. But yeah I assume this to be a semi simple system in regards to the computing side which is why im wondering if I should just delete the ABS system as a whole. Not wanting to buy a $1200 part and the problem still be there.

 

[alumarine]

As far as throwing codes I disconnected my ABS 6 years ago and it's never shown a code when I've scanned the truck with the Torque App.

It may be that a better OBDII tester is needed to check the ABS.

 

[Brian.]

I haven't dealt with the ABS on my 4R, so this is purely speculation (and knowledge from replacing ABS systems on Other vehicles).

The pump won't care, it's the ECU that *might* have an issue. Looks like the ABS control module is the same for 1996~2000, but there are 3 different part numbers. Perhaps Fed, Cali and ?? Regardless, if you didn't match part number with part number, it May not be communicating with another part of the system correctly.... and what Came with the 4R may have been an incorrect replacement. Tracking down the difference there would be one of my first steps (and asking that dealer Exactly what part numbers they would be ordering would be a fair first step).



Actually, looking further at the Toyota EPC, there are a bunch of different part numbers for the different years and different Tire Sizes within the years. So, absolutely investigating to find what's Supposed to be in your specific vehicle is in the cards. Takes nothing but some time.. start here:

Parts catalog for Toyota 4Runner

 

[phattyduck]

As a note for the soft brake pedal. Other than air in the ABS system - the system has to be bled with the correct procedure to work.

See this page from the FSM, applicable for '96-'00 4Runners:

Of special note is the master cylinder bench bleeding procedure and the order of bleeding. Both need to be done correctly for the brakes to work.

-Charlie

 

[RandyBobandy]

As far as throwing codes I disconnected my ABS 6 years ago and it's never shown a code when I've scanned the truck with the Torque App.

It may be that a better OBDII tester is needed to check the ABS.

The abs on these won’t throw a code that can be read through the obd port, unless you pull the abs ecu in which case it will cause a p0500 check engine code. Did your abs light come on when you disabled abs and how did you disable it?

 

[alumarine]

The abs on these won’t throw a code that can be read through the obd port, unless you pull the abs ecu in which case it will cause a p0500 check engine code. Did your abs light come on when you disabled abs and how did you disable it?

To disable the ABS I pulled the top connector off on the ABS actuator.
To disable the ABS warning light I put a piece of tape over it.

That's one good bulb - it's been on for 6 years.

 

[Toya!]

I haven't dealt with the ABS on my 4R, so this is purely speculation (and knowledge from replacing ABS systems on Other vehicles).

The pump won't care, it's the ECU that *might* have an issue. Looks like the ABS control module is the same for 1996~2000, but there are 3 different part numbers. Perhaps Fed, Cali and ?? Regardless, if you didn't match part number with part number, it May not be communicating with another part of the system correctly.... and what Came with the 4R may have been an incorrect replacement. Tracking down the difference there would be one of my first steps (and asking that dealer Exactly what part numbers they would be ordering would be a fair first step).



Actually, looking further at the Toyota EPC, there are a bunch of different part numbers for the different years and different Tire Sizes within the years. So, absolutely investigating to find what's Supposed to be in your specific vehicle is in the cards. Takes nothing but some time.. start here:

Parts catalog for Toyota 4Runner

I was very lucky to get the part from another '99 with a rear locker. They both had the same part number and I assume the only real change in the ECUs is it wont tell the ABS unit to deactivate when the rear locker is engaged. But since there is no difference in pumps between the 96-00 years any ECU should work with any pump. At least thats the methodology I am going by.

As a note for the soft brake pedal. Other than air in the ABS system - the system has to be bled with the correct procedure to work.

See this page from the FSM, applicable for '96-'00 4Runners:

Of special note is the master cylinder bench bleeding procedure and the order of bleeding. Both need to be done correctly for the brakes to work.

-Charlie

Thanks Charlie, the brakes have been flushed using this exact method as well as 2 other methods including a hand held vacuum pump and a air compressed vacuum pump. Myself, local mechanic, and dealership have combined probably gone through 10 qts of brake fluid hwell:

 

[Brian.]

But since there is no difference in pumps between the 96-00 years any ECU should work with any pump. At least thats the methodology I am going by.

Careful with ASSumptions... Could be there was some simple identifier flag that changed pins (or was a 1 on some and a 0 on others).

Now, having cracked open the manual, it looks like there's an SST designed to trigger the ABS pump AND that same SST is used on lots of 90's Toyotas... there's even some info out there in the wild on how to "DIY" that ABS checker. It's a tool the dealer Should have on hand, and be willing to use to at Least rule out the pump:

09990-00150 ABS ACTUATOR CHECKER AND SUB-HARNESS


Looks like there's a way to check codes internally:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGQtEDfnATM

yes, that's a Taco, should be the same for the 4R but again, you should Really double-check before doing it.