!Angry at 4Wheelin 4Runner!

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Interesting how alot of answers to this problem (?) seem to revolve around the possesion of a gun. :happens:
 
How do you come up with the conclusion that he was in the area illegally? Just because he thought the guy was a cop? Just because he thought it might be a cop, doesn't mean he was in the wrong. I've been confronted by cops/rangers/sheriffs many times while off roading and as long as you have the right to be there and/or the right permits/tags, then they are more or less just doing their job and patroling the area looking for those causing problems. When you're fishing on the shore of a lake and you see a ranger or sheriff coming your way...do you get worried that you shouldn't be there? You may have every right to be there...but he's going to make damn sure you have the license that allows you to be fishing.

I don't know the laws in Texas or Colorado...but here in AZ "trails" are considered open unless noted or posted closed. Also, unless the land owner has fencing up or has posted signs that you are entering private property, a restricted area, or a permitted area, you'd be allowed in the area legally (as long as you've satisfied the restriction or permit). If a private property owner wants people to stay out of an area, they post a no trespassing sign....just as the govt does with trust land...as does the BLM.

As I see it/treat it, around here the sign is merely a formality and extra step measure for the owner. I'm not going to go up to a fenced area and just assume I'm allowed in if there's no sign (like an obvious yard with structures). Here in AZ, there is so much open land that just has a 3 wire fence around it's perimeter and you do need to know what type of land it is...which is why signs are posted. Private land owners use the same 3 wire fencing that the govt does, so decifering which is which can only be done with signage and/or knowledge. Trust and BLM land will be posted with signs...as will *most* private property so you know which boundry you've come across in the middle of nowhere.

Many times you can come across these 3 wire fences in the desert and you'll not see any signs of structures or worked land in any direction. Since you're out in the middle of nowhere and it may not be posted, that's when YOU have the responsibility to make an educated decision based on the surroundings and to know where you are and what land lies beyond. An example of this judgement is coming across a 3 wire fence that has one of the panels cut open with a track leading through it. It may not have been open...but it is now. Doesn't mean you now have the right to enter just because the jack*** before you thought he did.

I'm on your side on the subject of irresponsible wheelers...but there are plenty of irresponsible people that wheel on open unrestricted land. I've been to numerous BLM/land use meetings with discussions always ending up at the subject of the "bubbas" (the irresponsible people) and how to thwart their destructive activities while at the same time not have the responsible people lose privaleges.

Only advice I can give the OP is that ultimately it's your responsibility to know if you should be there...based foremost on your local laws, then by common sense.

If it is not your property or you do not have permission to wheel there you are wheeling illegally!

You can’t just drive anywhere you like. Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
 
Whats even more frustrating foyaboya, is no matter how hard you tried you would never equal the damage those dozers are doing to the land now. I see it all the time around here, not allowed on the land but plow it under afterwards, whats the big deal of us being on it? I understand not wanting anyone driving in your property, but if your going to cut all the trees and dozer it....

Because you don't own it! You didn't get permission form the land owner. If you don't know it is a designated area set aside for off-roading stay off!

I have land. Some of the land I have fenced for a few cows. Other I will build out and other is for sale. People leave trash behind, when the ground is soft it gets rutted. Anything could happen.
How would you feel if somebody drove through your yard, esp. if it was muddy and you left ruts or decided to through your trash out?

About bringing a gun, don't be stupid. You are going to bring a gun to protect yourself at a place you are not supposed to be, there are people here that have no common sense at all!

There is a difference between wondering through somebody's land as opposed to 4 wheeling on it.
 
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Wiser but not really :)

yeah i really don't have any where close to have fun wheelin :crybaby: oh well...I was one to scope out places i could "get away" with a little wheeling. This spot was one of two spots I've actually tried out (big lawbreaker that I am) I really am a bad "bad" person...that's why I was all freaked out when the guy came driving at me. From now on In designated trails Off road will I hmmm.

Anyone have links of any good 4Wheel friendly places in the Dallas Fort-Worth Area? I'll see if there's a club for my area as well.
Thanks,
Fernando
 
yeah i really don't have any where close to have fun wheelin :crybaby: oh well...I was one to scope out places i could "get away" with a little wheeling. This spot was one of two spots I've actually tried out (big lawbreaker that I am) I really am a bad "bad" person...that's why I was all freaked out when the guy came driving at me. From now on In designated trails Off road will I hmmm.

Anyone have links of any good 4Wheel friendly places in the Dallas Fort-Worth Area? I'll see if there's a club for my area as well.
Thanks,
Fernando

Fernando,
Is the place in question the one I told you about along 114 in Marshall Creek?

In Texas ,there's lots of places owned by either the state like corp of engineers flood plains and lakes, power companies and the railroads that have trails. If it doesn't have "no trespassing" or "private property" signs up or is fenced in I've mountain biked or wheeled them for years.

When it's private property in Texas ,people let you know it,believe me. I'm from back east but here practically everything is fenced in. Matter of fact the local law requires my property to be fenced in.
 
Fernando,
Is the place in question the one I told you about along 114 in Marshall Creek?

In Texas ,there's lots of places owned by either the state like corp of engineers flood plains and lakes, power companies and the railroads that have trails. If it doesn't have "no trespassing" or "private property" signs up or is fenced in I've mountain biked or wheeled them for years.

When it's private property in Texas ,people let you know it,believe me. I'm from back east but here practically everything is fenced in. Matter of fact the local law requires my property to be fenced in.
Harper7,
Nah this spot was closer to my house off of Old Denton Road and 170...bout 7 miles south west of the spot you told me about. I am almost certain it was a flood plain owned by the state, recently purchased and built up and zoned for neighborhoods. As promised I was not going to wheel there without lettin you know. I just wanted to get my lift on first. otherwise you'd be pulling me out of just about everything. I am gathering parts for my LC coil rear/tundra TRD front lift. Already got my BFG's. BTW I know you offered to help with installing lifts in the DFW area???? I should hit you up when I get my stuff in! Then we'll go wheeling! You catch any flack at your recommended spot?
 
I am a gun lover in Texas...and a NRA member for years. However, i think that OPEN carry is a bad idea for normal folks. Sure, it looks cool. However, open carry takes away one very important advantage you have over your attacker...element of surprise! If the attacker sees that you carry, then he will take proper precaution to eliminate that advantage. Even though i go to the gun range as much as i can, i am sure that there are other folks who can outshoot me. This is why CONCEAL carry is so effective because the attacker does not know that you are carrying and thus, is not prepared for it. The playing field just tipped in your favor.

Back to topic, i agree with Trailhawk...life is too good to get into these confrontations. My life is much more valuable than some jackass in a pickup truck. Reel in your ego and move on. Hey, the fact that you get to go home safely and see your family is the biggest reward. Remember, pulling a trigger (even when you're right) can be a big headache. Investigations, lawsuits, etc..

I will ONLY use my gun to defend myself and/or my family AFTER exhausting all exit points.

My 2 cents.

Gun lover and NRA member here as well but I have to disagree with you here on open carry. Your arguments against it don't exactly make sense.

Yes, if using your gun is required, concealed carry has the advantage of surprise. However, the whole point of carrying a gun is to do everything to avoid having to use it. If you conceal carry, the only way the bad guy will know you are carrying a gun is when you clear leather. Most state laws are such that in order to draw your gun, you have to have reached a point where you are legally justified in using deadly force. As such, the bad guy can't see that you have a gun until you have to use it on him(which we both agree that using a gun, even legally, causes lots of problems). You can't draw the gun beforehand otherwise you would be charged with brandishing.

With open carry, the bad guy can see that you have a gun and either move on to another target before he even approaches you or can disengage once he realizes that you aren't going to be a victim. The surprise is gone but the deterrence factor is high. Plus, most criminals will probably assume you are a off duty cop or something and leave the area. I'd rather sacrifice surprise in order to have a lower chance of being forced to use my firearm to defend myself.

Furthermore, I personally can draw my gun from open carry faster than concealed carry so the reaction time is quicker. As far as skill, the guys that would rob you or attack you are probably not big gunrange junkies
 
What does it use if not clips? It certainly isn't a revolver.

It uses magizines, or mags for short. An example of a "clip" is the 8 round clip that goes in a M1 Garand. I'll put it this way, just call everything that you currently think is a "clip", a mag unless you are messing around with C&R guns. 99.99% of ammo feeding devices are mags, not clips.
 
Gun lover and NRA member here as well but I have to disagree with you here on open carry. Your arguments against it don't exactly make sense.

Well, it is a matter of opinion on the matter. Your open carry may scare high school dropouts who just want to make a quick buck at the local 7-11 store with a fake plastic gun. However, for an experienced criminal who wants to rob a place and has plan for it beforehand, i don't think that open carry will provide much advantage (if at all)...because he/she will aim for you first since they know where to cripple the main threats in a robbery.

The guy who robs me methodically probably has handle his gun more often than me. (And for most criminals, I would think that they don't really need a gun range to practice....) You're right, it may be that i am giving the criminals too much credit or respect...but, i rather overestimate their prowess than underestimate....

EDIT: This is why i don't wear baseball caps from gun manufacturers nor wear any clothing apparels with gun-related topics printed on them. In addition, there is no NRA sticker on my car either...you certainly don't want to invite wrong-doing folks to hit your car looking for a hidden gun!
 
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Well, it is a matter of opinion on the matter. Your open carry may scare high school dropouts who just want to make a quick buck at the local 7-11 store with a fake plastic gun. However, for an experienced criminal who wants to rob a place and has plan for it beforehand, i don't think that open carry will provide much advantage (if at all)...because he/she will aim for you first since they know where to cripple the main threats in a robbery.

The guy who robs me methodically probably has handle his gun more often than me. (And for most criminals, I would think that they don't really need a gun range to practice....) You're right, it may be that i am giving the criminals too much credit or respect...but, i rather overestimate their prowess than underestimate....

I would guess that 99.5% of strong arm robbery's, muggings and holdups are done by the gang member/crackhead/thug/HS dropout segment that you mention. Experienced criminals that plan out their robberies and think about plans are not likely to do these types of crimes because of the high risk/low reward ratio. The experienced criminals are usually pulling off larger jobs and specifically try to avoid viable threats(ie man with gun) because a gunfight brings attention and could cause their death/injury. Why walk into a store/business where people could be armed and with many uncontrolled variables to make off with under $10K when you can commit burglaries or thefts where the risk is much lower and if you are caught, jail time is much less? The intelligent criminals avoid unnecessary risk and if they do a strong arm robbery, they do it with precision planning and overwhelming force. Think more along the lines of a armored car robbery.

So the people who might have decent crime planning/firearms experience are the ones who avoid situations where they might actually use their guns and are the ones that avoid small crimes. Now, if you are someone who regularly carries lots of cash or valuables(money carrier, jewelry salesman, or manager that makes bank deposits) then you might be a target for these types of criminals. However, these guys will automatically assume that you will be armed and will plan any robbery to either overwhelm you with force before you can react or they will plan to shoot you. The latter is much less likely because murder attracts much more police resources than robbery. You don't get the element of surprise even if you CC because anyone who plans out a job will assume you are armed and will plan for it.

I agree that CC and OC have their strengths and weaknesses but to dismiss open carry outright as a means of carry for "normal folks" is naive.
 
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Would OC be a good or bad thing in this situation? Link: Waffle House robbery victim opened fire on suspects | khou.com Houston

Well, first of all he failed because he didn't have his gun on him and he then used it after the threat had left the area. Luckly he was in texas where the laws are much better but by the way he reacted, he is lucky if he doesn't get in trouble for that.

As to which would be better in this one situation? It depends. They likely had someone go in just before the crime to scout it and make sure there were not police eating in there(as waffle house seems to be a popular patrol break place). Even the stupid gangbangs do this. If the guy had been open carrying and they had seen it, they would have likely moved on to another location. In this case, open carry prevented the crime where CC would not have.

Now lets assume they hadn't scouted the location before going in or didn't notice the gun. In this case, the choice of which is better depends on what your reaction would have been. Its a restaurant and when they barged in they probably couldn't have seen an open carry gun on a seated man.
-If your reaction would have been to immediately draw your gun and fire at them or demand that they drop their guns, than open carry would probably be better(easier to draw) or the same as concealed carry.
-If your reaction would have been to lay low and wait until they start shooting at you to draw your gun, than concealed carry would probably be best.
-If your reaction would be to sit there throughout the robbery and not draw your gun, than concealed carry would have been better than open carry but you better hope that they don't notice your gun while they are robbing people individually otherwise you are in deep trouble.

Not every situation is the same. I could quote a mugging event that occurred to an unarmed individual and point out that if he had a open carry gun on his hip, the mugger would have very likely chosen a different victim. There's a reason why cops(who open carry) don't get mugged. Criminals want an easy score and avoid targets they think might be trouble.
 
I could also tell you of a story where an OC individual was shot in the back at a gas station by his own gun. The robber was standing right behind him in line and used his gun to rob the place.
 
I could also tell you of a story where an OC individual was shot in the back at a gas station by his own gun. The robber was standing right behind him in line and used his gun to rob the place.

If that actually happened then by all means post a link to the news story.

Assuming that happened(which is only an assumption for the sake of argumentation at the moment since I haven't heard that story before and google has nothing) than that guy failed on multiple levels. Kind of like the guy that left his gun in his car. If you open carry, you need to be using a retention holster and be aware of your surroundings. At the very least something with a retention strap(like many police wear) but a Serpa or something similar would be best. I use a Serpa for OC when I decide to OC rather than CC. No robber is going to be getting that one from behind.

Open carry requires a different set of awareness and equipment to keep your weapon and yourself safe. Ideally this level of awareness should also occur during concealed carry but it is especially important if your weapon is visible. Wearing a handgun open carry in a holster without any retention is taking a huge risk. Not being aware of your surroundings while doing so is incredibly stupid. You won't see police using holsters without any retention for a reason.
 
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