Antifreeze turned to Mud! Why!!?!

[rick derris]

I have a '99 v6 with rear heat, started it this morning and noticed a thick puddle of milk chocolate mud forming (growing) on the garage floor right below the raidiator overflow container. No vapor from the exhaust, idle only very slightly rougher than normal (but enough to have been noticed as abnormal) and oil level holding steady from a oil change a month ago. Also color and smell of oil is normal. The mud is oily in nature and was comming out of the over flow vent on the res. container. Drained the coolant and at first the coolant had the perfect green color as it came out of the bottom drian hole, then it turned to the brown muddy color as it continued to drain.

Has anyone experienced this problem? Is it really a head gasket or could it be something else? Any help or advice is greatly appreciated!

 

[drmorbius]

I have a '99 v6 with rear heat, started it this morning and noticed a thick puddle of milk chocolate mud forming (growing) on the garage floor right below the raidiator overflow container. No vapor from the exhaust, idle only very slightly rougher than normal (but enough to have been noticed as abnormal) and oil level holding steady from a oil change a month ago. Also color and smell of oil is normal. The mud is oily in nature and was comming out of the over flow vent on the res. container. Drained the coolant and at first the coolant had the perfect green color as it came out of the bottom drian hole, then it turned to the brown muddy color as it continued to drain.

Has anyone experienced this problem? Is it really a head gasket or could it be something else? Any help or advice is greatly appreciated!

Check the condition of your transmission fluid.

 

[rick derris]

Good call. The red color of the ATF fluid is certinaly tinted milky white now. Where is the connection from the tranny to the raidiator? Is it a simple matter of a gasket, or more involved?

 

[drmorbius]

Good call. The red color of the ATF fluid is certinaly tinted milky white now. Where is the connection from the tranny to the raidiator? Is it a simple matter of a gasket, or more involved?

There is a partition in the radiator that has started to leak. The trans fluid is cooled in a separate section of the radiator (you can follow tubes back to the trans). You need to flush the trans and the lines and replace the radiator, trans fluid and coolant.You will be lucky if you don't have to rebuild the trans(I had to). I am guessing that the trans tubes are on the passenger side of the radiator. If you have tubes on both sides of the radiator then your engine oil is cooled on the other side.

 

[rick derris]

Man oh man that's so much better than what I was thinking (first head gasket, then rebuilt tranny). And also this afternoon while trying to flush the system the Raidiator sprung two leaks in the bottom end. I will certianly take your advice this weekend in replacing and flushing. Your a life-saver! I will update after the job is done.

 

[drmorbius]

Man oh man that's so much better than what I was thinking (first head gasket, then rebuilt tranny). And also this afternoon while trying to flush the system the Raidiator sprung two leaks in the bottom end. I will certianly take your advice this weekend in replacing and flushing. Your a life-saver! I will update after the job is done.

Good luck with this, I had to rebuild my trans but it had been going on for too long a time. The sooner you flush the trans the better as the coolant is really bad for the clutches and almost impossible to clean out of the torque converter.

 

[drmorbius]

Good luck with this, I had to rebuild my trans but it had been going on for too long a time. The sooner you flush the trans the better as the coolant is really bad for the clutches and almost impossible to clean out of the torque converter.

The "mud" goes anywhere the coolant goes so don't forget to flush the engine cooling system as well.

 

[rick derris]

Had the trans and coolant systems flushed after replacing the raidiator myself. Was told by the service shop that did the flushing that they had never seen so much "foam" comming from a A/T before and after calling several transmission shops decided to not waste my money by working on it longer. They mentinoned that the transmission specialists said the clutch plates are glued to the individual gears and that the glue is water soluble so it was just a matter of time before those plates seperate and the trasmission slips. After comming back from the shop the AT fluid looked just like pepto bismol, and after driving it for a couple of days it started to shift hard. Yesterday, in an effort to make it last as long as possible, I installed a new filter, cleaned out the pan(there was a layer of the pepto lining the pan), and once put back together flushed the AT fluid three times. Today it's back to running smoothly and the fluid on the dipstick is almost back to normal. I am going to give it another week (or if it starts shifting hard again) and conduct another filter/flush job. Fingers crossed that it will last a couple of months.

In your opinion could the hard shifting have been due to the reduced viscosity when the AT fluid mixed with the remaining foam, or could that be something else that has been effected by the antifreeze?

Once again thanks for the advice.

 

[rusking]

Hi yall, brand new to the board...not mechanics. My bro has a 2000 4-r and guess what? Same prob as above...only differance that i think my case is, the radator res blew the top off and sprayed the stuff every where! Well here i go on the same trip as you my friend. What radiator did you get...is it front or rear. Sorry im use to domestics and do you have a part number or a good cheap place to buy from? Thanks

 

[rusking]

hmm after reading this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?threadid=17358 i am a bit confussed. Is the transmisson cooler seperate from the radiator? I mean if they are then how would the coolant get into the tranny fluid? if not then why does the tranny have an idenpendat cooler. Is there a big piece im missing here? like the radiator for the coolant shares a housing with transmmiosn lines fro cooling purposes and the "transmission cooler" is on an optional addon?

 

[rick derris]

First of all DRAIN THE TRANSMISSION IMMEDIATLY!! If you want to avoid a new transmission get rid of that stuff right away. Once the coolant starts to eat away at the glue that holds the clutch material to the gears you are done.

Just look under the car and follow the two hard lines comming out of the transmission going forward. If they go to a small radiator than you have a seperate cooling system. If that's the case something else is mixing with the antifreeze. If not then those lines will run to the radiator up front and it's the same problem I have. There are two radiators up front (the smaller one in front is for the Air Conditioning) the one behind is your coolant radiator. www.radiatorexpress.com but do some searching around for best price and product (I paid 158.00 from Moose Radiator here is WA)

I am on the third drain and flush of my Tranny, and while it's starting to feel better, the residue is still well entrenched in the system. Good Luck!

 

[drmorbius]

Had the trans and coolant systems flushed after replacing the raidiator myself. Was told by the service shop that did the flushing that they had never seen so much "foam" comming from a A/T before and after calling several transmission shops decided to not waste my money by working on it longer. They mentinoned that the transmission specialists said the clutch plates are glued to the individual gears and that the glue is water soluble so it was just a matter of time before those plates seperate and the trasmission slips. After comming back from the shop the AT fluid looked just like pepto bismol, and after driving it for a couple of days it started to shift hard. Yesterday, in an effort to make it last as long as possible, I installed a new filter, cleaned out the pan(there was a layer of the pepto lining the pan), and once put back together flushed the AT fluid three times. Today it's back to running smoothly and the fluid on the dipstick is almost back to normal. I am going to give it another week (or if it starts shifting hard again) and conduct another filter/flush job. Fingers crossed that it will last a couple of months.

In your opinion could the hard shifting have been due to the reduced viscosity when the AT fluid mixed with the remaining foam, or could that be something else that has been effected by the antifreeze?

Once again thanks for the advice.

The hard shifting may be due to the pepto gumming up the solenoids. It sounds like you have had some success at bringing back the trans. I guess that eventually you would get that stuff all out by changing the fluid. Hope your trans lives through this.

 

[drmorbius]

hmm after reading this thread http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?threadid=17358 i am a bit confussed. Is the transmisson cooler seperate from the radiator? I mean if they are then how would the coolant get into the tranny fluid? if not then why does the tranny have an idenpendat cooler. Is there a big piece im missing here? like the radiator for the coolant shares a housing with transmmiosn lines fro cooling purposes and the "transmission cooler" is on an optional addon?

If your trans has a separate cooler it was probably added so you can tow without overheating the trans fluid. Unfortunately that would mean that something else is causing the coolant radiator problem such as a blown head gasket.

 

[rusking]

If your trans has a separate cooler it was probably added so you can tow without overheating the trans fluid. Unfortunately that would mean that something else is causing the coolant radiator problem such as a blown head gasket.

so how would a blown head gasket get into the tranny becuase the "mud" is in there too. Whats the best way to train the tranny? pull the pan and wait?

 

[rusking]

ok, drained the tranny. Drained the block and radiator. The radiator does have two tranny line attached to it...in/out as well as in/out for coolant. Im a welder for the army and know how to repair radiators but do not see any leaks and have never delt with a tranny cooler attached to a radiator. does anyone have a diagram as to how the lines in the radiaotr run in conjuction witht he tranny lines on the inside?

 

[rusking]

Ok found the radiator local. Do you fine people knwo of any solution that i could use to flush the tranny that is cheaper than tranny fluid? With access to the lines i can just pump the fluide threw the system.

 

[TechWrench]

Ok found the radiator local. Do you fine people knwo of any solution that i could use to flush the tranny that is cheaper than tranny fluid? With access to the lines i can just pump the fluide threw the system.

It is not that simple. The two lines from the trans to the radiator are not directly connected internally in the transmission, so you can't just pump a fluid in one and expect it to loop around and come out the other one. The transmission holds over 10-12 quarts of fluid, but most of that is in the torque converter which is in between the transmission and the engine. The only way fluid moves between the transmission and torque converter is when the engine is running, and the internal transmission pump is working. Most transmission shops and dealers have the equipment to do a power flush of the transmission. It is expensive, but still way less than replacing the trans itself, as long as too much damage has not already been done.

If you haven't already found out about your question on the trans cooler, it is basically a small tube which loops around inside a chamber inside the radiator. Trans fluid is pumped through this tube, and cooled by the radiator coolant inside this chamber and then returned to the trans. When you get radiator coolant in the trans, it is because this tube has developed an internal leak inside the radiator. The pressure used by the trans to pump the fluid to the radiator cooler isn't very high, so when the engine is cold, this pressure is enough to force some trans fluid to get into the radiator coolant, but once the engine reaches operating temp, the pressure in the radiator gets higher than the trans line pressure, and now engine coolant flows into the trans cooler line and back to the trans. In order to fix the trans cooler inside the radiator, the radiator needs to be cut open to repair the internal trans cooling loop, or you just replace the radiator with a rebuilt or new one.

 

[rusking]

ok so to drain the motor i can use a water hose in the top inlet and let it pump the water throught the system how ever i need to be running. I have not fluide in the tranny or the pan+filter on the tranny.. If im in (N) will this hurt the tranny running the motor?

 

[TechWrench]

ok so to drain the motor i can use a water hose in the top inlet and let it pump the water throught the system how ever i need to be running. I have not fluide in the tranny or the pan+filter on the tranny.. If im in (N) will this hurt the tranny running the motor?

If I am understanding you correctly, you have removed the transmission pan, and it is still OFF? If this is correct, then you DO NOT want to start the engine for any reason, or you will probably kill what ever is left of the transmission. The main pump in the transmission is driven by the torque converter hub that fits into the front of the transmission. When EVER the engine is running (assuming you haven't unbolted the converter from the flex plate.flywheel) this torque converter is turning the gears in the transmission main pump. The main pump pulls its supply of fluid from the sump inside the transmission pan, and if this sump is empty, the pump gears will run dry VERY quickly and can do damage to them along with the supporting bushings which will require replacement to fix. It doesn't matter what gear the shifter/selector is in, the pump is ON if the engine is turning. You must replace the trans pan, and refill the sump with at least 4 quarts of fluid before you start the engine.