Any concerns of running lean with Magnuson supercharger?

[Sp00ner]

Are you aware of any engine failures? Just curious.

It kinda sounds like we're searching for data on a problem that doesn't exist. If we were seeing engine issues, then it would be time to investigate. It sure seems like either they're not running lean, or the engine is capable of handling the lean condition.

I'd respectfully suggest it's a case of searching for data to know if a problem potentially exists or not, which is how the question was phrased.

Sure, maybe this engine can run at a 13.7 AFR on 93 octane at x elevation, but if I'm running an aftermarket blower on a new car, I'd certainly prefer to have that information when I get stuck in BFE and have to put 87 in to get home so I'm damn sure aware that babying the throttle is not just recommended, but essential to not knock my way to a new engine.

Then again I'm a data nerd and not having that info would make me nervous every time I hit high RPMs...

 

[08TxRunner]

I mean, it's one way to go, but it's a pretty damn expensive way to bench test things.

Replacing the stock NB sensor with that thing was such a pain in the ass in my old LSJ, but it was damn sure invaluable...

Shoot, all you need is a quick trip to the muffler shop to install the bung pre-cat, then wire up power/ground. Plug the LC2 into the sensor and off you go. Even the datalogging software is free from Innovate.

 

[Sp00ner]

Shoot, all you need is a quick trip to the muffler shop to install the bung pre-cat, then wire up power/ground. Plug the LC2 into the sensor and off you go. Even the datalogging software is free from Innovate.

Yea, but younger stubborn me insisted on replacing the stock one and then tuning the LC2 to give the right NB output, you can guess which way I'd go if I were doing it again I suspect...

 

[Friggin Idiot]

Yea you guys are way above my head on this. But being a Friggin Idiot that's no surprise. Every vehicle I've had up to the 4Runner has been NA, so every step of adding the SC has been a learning experience. I assumed that URD had done significant testing with their kit and shipped tune prior to putting it up for sale and would not put themselves into a liability/reputation hole by creating something that would pose significant risk to end user engines.
I have had to sit in the truck with the laptop while on the phone with tech support on the line for the Ucon-EMS, and was overwhelmed with the array of different parameters available to tweak. I made sure not to delete that program from the laptop, but never got back around to taking a harder look at the program.

 

[TrailRunnin14]

Yea you guys are way above my head on this. But being a Friggin Idiot that's no surprise. Every vehicle I've had up to the 4Runner has been NA, so every step of adding the SC has been a learning experience. I assumed that URD had done significant testing with their kit and shipped tune prior to putting it up for sale and would not put themselves into a liability/reputation hole by creating something that would pose significant risk to end user engines.
I have had to sit in the truck with the laptop while on the phone with tech support on the line for the Ucon-EMS, and was overwhelmed with the array of different parameters available to tweak. I made sure not to delete that program from the laptop, but never got back around to taking a harder look at the program.

I agree with what everyone is saying. Maybe I’m leaning too much on the tune from Magnuson. The tune must be ok if people aren’t blowing motors up. It would be very nice to see my AFR. It would take some worries away. This is my first supercharged experience and I’m always up for learning something new.


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[Sp00ner]

Yea you guys are way above my head on this. But being a Friggin Idiot that's no surprise. Every vehicle I've had up to the 4Runner has been NA, so every step of adding the SC has been a learning experience. I assumed that URD had done significant testing with their kit and shipped tune prior to putting it up for sale and would not put themselves into a liability/reputation hole by creating something that would pose significant risk to end user engines.
I have had to sit in the truck with the laptop while on the phone with tech support on the line for the Ucon-EMS, and was overwhelmed with the array of different parameters available to tweak. I made sure not to delete that program from the laptop, but never got back around to taking a harder look at the program.

Chances are you're right, but you'd be shocked at how some half assed tunes can get out into the wild due to someone's oversight or mistake.

At the end of the day, they can only develop a tune based on the development mule(s) that they had at the time. There's a 97-99% chance, maybe higher, that their tune is going to be just fine on your ride in all conditions. As long as you dont deviate from the hardware they tested with, nothing goes wrong with your fuel pump (recall) or injectors, you live at a 'normal' altitude and temperature, can find the right octane and dont get too much or too little ethanol in your mix etc. (With boost the right ethanol mix is MOAR!) Even then you have a knock sensor that will usually save your ass either way.

The point that got me wondering/concerned though, was one company apparently using a 7th injector and one not. That tells me that someone was seeing AFRs leaning out and/or pushing injector duty cycles past 100% or dangerously close in certain conditions. They certainly didn't add that complexity and some extra cost for no reason, and you dont usually see massive overhead on stock fuel injectors since it impacts the ability to sip fuel while idling smoothly. I had to use Mustang Cobra injectors for my 2.0L motor to run E85, it was a ***** to get them to open for a short enough period to get it to not stumble at idle.

 

[Sp00ner]

I agree with what everyone is saying. Maybe I’m leaning too much on the tune from Magnuson. The tune must be ok if people aren’t blowing motors up. It would be very nice to see my AFR. It would take some worries away. This is my first supercharged experience and I’m always up for learning something new.


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It might come from experiencing what happens when you give car people access to an ECM along with boost, it's... addictive... and a smaller blower pulley is always just a phone call away, and leaning it out just a bit more will get you just a bit more top end, and if I advance the timing just another degree.... shit I just blew a hole in my piston...

 

[TrailRunnin14]

It might come from experiencing what happens when you give car people access to an ECM along with boost, it's... addictive... and a smaller blower pulley is always just a phone call away, and leaning it out just a bit more will get you just a bit more top end, and if I advance the timing just another degree.... shit I just blew a hole in my piston...

Hey I appreciate the wisdom!


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[TrailRunnin14]

Chances are you're right, but you'd be shocked at how some half assed tunes can get out into the wild due to someone's oversight or mistake.

At the end of the day, they can only develop a tune based on the development mule(s) that they had at the time. There's a 97-99% chance, maybe higher, that their tune is going to be just fine on your ride in all conditions. As long as you dont deviate from the hardware they tested with, nothing goes wrong with your fuel pump (recall) or injectors, you live at a 'normal' altitude and temperature, can find the right octane and dont get too much or too little ethanol in your mix etc. (With boost the right ethanol mix is MOAR!) Even then you have a knock sensor that will usually save your ass either way.

The point that got me wondering/concerned though, was one company apparently using a 7th injector and one not. That tells me that someone was seeing AFRs leaning out and/or pushing injector duty cycles past 100% or dangerously close in certain conditions. They certainly didn't add that complexity and some extra cost for no reason, and you dont usually see massive overhead on stock fuel injectors since it impacts the ability to sip fuel while idling smoothly. I had to use Mustang Cobra injectors for my 2.0L motor to run E85, it was a ***** to get them to open for a short enough period to get it to not stumble at idle.

Yes and I guess that’s part of my concern. I’ve got a 2014 and it’s going in next week for a fuel pump recall. Just wondering if the replacement pump has the same flow as the pump it’s replacing.


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[Jetboy]

That's not a good way to approach a supercharged engine - to wait for a failure before you take precautionary steps. From personal experience my Innovate LC2 saved the engine in my GT500 when one of the two pumps failed. It showed as excessively lean A/F readings at only 4500 rpm. I found the pump issue and corrected it. A rebuild of this engine is in excess of $15K not including R&R.

But hey I'm just offering some advice.

I didn't question the tune in my stock engine. The tune is equally important. I rely on empirical data. Lots of engines, extremely few failed engines is enough for me. It's better than arm chair experts in my experience. These aren't custom tunes. These are professional tunes from professional supercharger experts on an engine designed for boost. And Magnuson has been running them for a long time. I'd trust them unless there's a reason not to. If there's any indication that the tune isn't right, then I'd be more inclined to investigate.

 

[Jetboy]

I'd respectfully suggest it's a case of searching for data to know if a problem potentially exists or not, which is how the question was phrased.

Sure, maybe this engine can run at a 13.7 AFR on 93 octane at x elevation, but if I'm running an aftermarket blower on a new car, I'd certainly prefer to have that information when I get stuck in BFE and have to put 87 in to get home so I'm damn sure aware that babying the throttle is not just recommended, but essential to not knock my way to a new engine.

Then again I'm a data nerd and not having that info would make me nervous every time I hit high RPMs...

It's a valid question. I was curious if anyone knows of even a single issue. I'm not aware of even one. Maybe there are some issues. If there are problems I'd be all for looking at the tune. But you can't change it anyway, so I'm not really sure what you'd do with the info if you had it.

 

[Friggin Idiot]

Chances are you're right, but you'd be shocked at how some half assed tunes can get out into the wild due to someone's oversight or mistake.

At the end of the day, they can only develop a tune based on the development mule(s) that they had at the time. There's a 97-99% chance, maybe higher, that their tune is going to be just fine on your ride in all conditions. As long as you dont deviate from the hardware they tested with, nothing goes wrong with your fuel pump (recall) or injectors, you live at a 'normal' altitude and temperature, can find the right octane and dont get too much or too little ethanol in your mix etc.

The point that got me wondering/concerned though, was one company apparently using a 7th injector and one not. That tells me that someone was seeing AFRs leaning out and/or pushing injector duty cycles past 100% or dangerously close in certain conditions. They certainly didn't add that complexity and some extra cost for no reason, and you dont usually see massive overhead on stock fuel injectors since it impacts the ability to sip fuel while idling smoothly. I had to use Mustang Cobra injectors for my 2.0L motor to run E85, it was a ***** to get them to open for a short enough period to get it to not stumble at idle.

Thanks for not tearing into this noob too badly! I had actually considered the altitude as URD is practically sea level MD, where I'm in OH is about 800ft. I figure that's not a big enough change, but my regular runs down to the Blue Ridge put me up to 2500ft at some points. Dragging a heavy vacation load (3000lbs boat/trailer, plus a dozen guns in hard-side cases, plus 10k rds of ammo, plus a week's worth of clothes) for vacation up some 8% grades on a 95F day and 90% RH that's got to be a significant difference. It's the lack of power there which drove me to the SC in the first place.
I did notice that the URD kit included both a replacement fuel pump and 7th injector setup. I attributed the higher kit cost partly to this, though figured the requirement for additional fuel was driven by a higher boost level. More air needs more fuel right? I never got around to the wide-band O2 or boost gauge (got de-reailed by possibility of converting to MAP over MAF), but would certainly be interested in a comparison between the two kits.

Yes and I guess that’s part of my concern. I’ve got a 2014 and it’s going in next week for a fuel pump recall. Just wondering if the replacement pump has the same flow as the pump it’s replacing.

From what I understand the impellers on the OEM fuel pumps were soaked in a chemical agent too long. That left the impellers porous, able to absorb gasoline, and which compromised their structural integrity. Which means the impeller can break, or at best the holes allow fuel to flow through the impeller blades reducing output capacity. Replacing the pump with the correction may improve the flow over what it was, but is not the same as replacing the pump with something which has a higher fuel flow. I know URD has pump kits, and you can request any of those pumps with your SC kit for an upcharge.
IIRC the OEM is a 230L/hr pump, and the standard with the URD kit is the 255L/hr pump.

 

[TrailRunnin14]

Thanks for not tearing into this noob too badly! I had actually considered the altitude as URD is practically sea level MD, where I'm in OH is about 800ft. I figure that's not a big enough change, but my regular runs down to the Blue Ridge put me up to 2500ft at some points. Dragging a heavy vacation load (3000lbs boat/trailer, plus a dozen guns in hard-side cases, plus 10k rds of ammo, plus a week's worth of clothes) for vacation up some 8% grades on a 95F day and 90% RH that's got to be a significant difference. It's the lack of power there which drove me to the SC in the first place.
I did notice that the URD kit included both a replacement fuel pump and 7th injector setup. I attributed the higher kit cost partly to this, though figured the requirement for additional fuel was driven by a higher boost level. More air needs more fuel right? I never got around to the wide-band O2 or boost gauge (got de-reailed by possibility of converting to MAP over MAF), but would certainly be interested in a comparison between the two kits.


From what I understand the impellers on the OEM fuel pumps were soaked in a chemical agent too long. That left the impellers porous, able to absorb gasoline, and which compromised their structural integrity. Which means the impeller can break, or at best the holes allow fuel to flow through the impeller blades reducing output capacity. Replacing the pump with the correction may improve the flow over what it was, but is not the same as replacing the pump with something which has a higher fuel flow. I know URD has pump kits, and you can request any of those pumps with your SC kit for an upcharge.
IIRC the OEM is a 230L/hr pump, and the standard with the URD kit is the 255L/hr pump.

Ok thanks for that info. I didn’t know exactly why there was a recall. I’m wondering if my dealership will drop an aftermarket kit in while they have they tank down. Lol
I have a pretty good relationship with them but not sure they will take me up on that.


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[08TxRunner]

I didn't question the tune in my stock engine. The tune is equally important. I rely on empirical data. Lots of engines, extremely few failed engines is enough for me. It's better than arm chair experts in my experience. These aren't custom tunes. These are professional tunes from professional supercharger experts on an engine designed for boost. And Magnuson has been running them for a long time. I'd trust them unless there's a reason not to. If there's any indication that the tune isn't right, then I'd be more inclined to investigate.

So after all this you still don't understand. I never said one thing about anyone's tune. I discussed other components that can fail and cause a catastrophic failure on a blown engine. Electrical system; pumps; fuel pump driver modules; injectors, just to name a few.

For all dumb shit we (and likely you) spend out money on - wheels, tires, light bars, bumpers, winches, etc. - are you really raising your hand and saying $250 for a wideband is money ill spent?

 

[Sp00ner]

Thanks for not tearing into this noob too badly! I had actually considered the altitude as URD is practically sea level MD, where I'm in OH is about 800ft. I figure that's not a big enough change, but my regular runs down to the Blue Ridge put me up to 2500ft at some points. Dragging a heavy vacation load (3000lbs boat/trailer, plus a dozen guns in hard-side cases, plus 10k rds of ammo, plus a week's worth of clothes) for vacation up some 8% grades on a 95F day and 90% RH that's got to be a significant difference. It's the lack of power there which drove me to the SC in the first place.

I did notice that the URD kit included both a replacement fuel pump and 7th injector setup. I attributed the higher kit cost partly to this, though figured the requirement for additional fuel was driven by a higher boost level. More air needs more fuel right? I never got around to the wide-band O2 or boost gauge (got de-reailed by possibility of converting to MAP over MAF), but would certainly be interested in a comparison between the two kits.

Ha, a noob blows his motor by leaning it out to hell and then asks about AFRs, not the other way around.

Where the hell are you going on vacation? Beirut?

Yea, more air = more fuel, boosted motors tend to run richer for a few reasons, safety, cooling effect of vapor, etc. When the injectors run out of room (Injector duty cycle) the motor leans out as RPMs increase due the the smaller and smaller time window to inject that fuel into each cylinder. Boost gauges are useful AFR gauges are more useful, in terms of diagnostics, IMO. What you can do with that info depends on the ECM access and your own knowledge and skills.

I'm super curious how two companies arrived at very different results on fueling needs. Does the URD kit use a bigger blower/more power than the Magnuson one? Maggies are well known units and in my experience is a good company, so it's a bit strange they took a set of data and said "Yup, we good" and URD took a similar set of data and said "Crap, add more fuel" with a fuel pump AND an injector. (Full disclosure, I think a 7th injector is a pretty half assed way to approach that issue) No reason to add the complexity and cost if it's not required.

 

[TrailRunnin14]

Ha, a noob blows his motor by leaning it out to hell and then asks about AFRs, not the other way around.

Where the hell are you going on vacation? Beirut?

Yea, more air = more fuel, boosted motors tend to run richer for a few reasons, safety, cooling effect of vapor, etc. When the injectors run out of room (Injector duty cycle) the motor leans out as RPMs increase due the the smaller and smaller time window to inject that fuel into each cylinder. Boost gauges are useful AFR gauges are more useful, in terms of diagnostics, IMO. What you can do with that info depends on the ECM access and your own knowledge and skills.

I'm super curious how two companies arrived at very different results on fueling needs. Does the URD kit use a bigger blower/more power than the Magnuson one? Maggies are well known units and in my experience is a good company, so it's a bit strange they took a set of data and said "Yup, we good" and URD took a similar set of data and said "Crap, add more fuel" with a fuel pump AND an injector. (Full disclosure, I think a 7th injector is a pretty half assed way to approach that issue) No reason to add the complexity and cost if it's not required.

The URD is a bigger blower and I’m 99% certain it pushes more boost. The Magnuson is a 1.3L blower. I think the URD is around 8psi and the Magnuson is around 6psi. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong on the URD info.


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[rayofsi]

The URD is a bigger blower and I’m 99% certain it pushes more boost. The Magnuson is a 1.3L blower. I think the URD is around 8psi and the Magnuson is around 6psi. I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong on the URD info.


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Urd/ Whipple is 2.3L pushing 5.5-6 psi

URD / Whipple Supercharger System, 2010-2019, 4Runner V6, Stage 1 - Underdog Racing Development

 

[TrailRunnin14]

Urd/ Whipple is 2.3L pushing 5.5-6 psi

URD / Whipple Supercharger System, 2010-2019, 4Runner V6, Stage 1 - Underdog Racing Development

That’s a pretty good size blower! Lots of potential! Didn’t take long for me to get corrected! Lol


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[Jetboy]

So after all this you still don't understand. I never said one thing about anyone's tune. I discussed other components that can fail and cause a catastrophic failure on a blown engine. Electrical system; pumps; fuel pump driver modules; injectors, just to name a few.

For all dumb shit we (and likely you) spend out money on - wheels, tires, light bars, bumpers, winches, etc. - are you really raising your hand and saying $250 for a wideband is money ill spent?

Do you monitor your diff temps? Periodically check the preload on your pinion bearings? Your internal transmission oil pressure? The oil film thickness in your U joints? Why not?

The same reason you don't measure those is the same reason it's not worth the effort to install a wide band sensor - the probability of a failure x the cost of the failure < $250. It's not a close call. If 1 in 20 engines was failing due to fuel lean out - everyone would know. The rational choice is not to install one unless you're doing a custom tune. No one without aftermarket ECU is doing a custom tune. If you're running a custom turbo setup or maybe the whipple from URD - and then wanting to push the limits of power, sure. It probably makes sense. Running a Mag supercharger - unless there's evidence suggesting that there's a problem, there's no value in the information it provides.

 

[Axix23]

How much quicker is the car with the Sc?
Night and day?