audio replacement saga Part 01, speaker-shopping woes, classical music

nusrat

New member
I'm splitting this into different threads about basically different topics which are all related to replacing my sound system. It's a 2008 Urban Runner with a stock double-DIN HU with TomTom nav. I've owned the car for one year. I hate the UI on the HU, especially since the TomTom screen is dead, and I've decided to get a single-DIN Kenwood KDC-X702.
Part 01, speaker-shopping woes, classical music
The stock unit is OK for listening to talk programs and pop/rock, and even jazz. (I feel no need to impress everyone in the vicinity of my car with teeth-jarring bass. Likewise for volume levels -- the only use I would have for super-loud sound would be to vengefully blast some really bad opera singing at any nearby cars which are forcing me to listen to their music.)

But the stock system is really ass for listening to classical (including choral) and opera, which are all I listened to up until the age of 16. There's just no combination of settings on this system which make that music listenable -- I'm just wincing the whole time. At one time I was one of those high-end audio equipment nut-jobs, and even sold the stuff for a while. I don't expect any in-car system to sound that good -- at least not for less than $3k -- but I'm convinced it should and can sound better than it does.

So I spent a couple of entire days searching for reviews of all the dozens of speakers which Crutchfield says will fit my T4R. I couldn't find anything which even mentioned classical or opera, even on web-sites devoted to high-end audiophilia. Then I searched on the sites of the makers whom I know to have (now or previously) justifiably good histories in home audio. But I found nothing there either.

Then I went to three different "big box" stores which have demo walls. I brought my own music to audition their hardware. It's hard to believe that any of their car-equipment sales are attributable to those demo-walls (except maybe to customers who are hypnotized by flashy space-age ornamentation and multi-colored blinking displays). A lot of their demo equipment is dead or damaged or unlabeled, with no employee there whom you can ask the model or price. And more importantly, all the demo-wall stuff also sounded like crap.

Finally I went to a high-end boutique audio specialist store -- the kind of place which sells five-figure home equipment -- and found that they have stopped selling car equipment. I asked what kind of car speakers they thought might be good for classical music, and they mentioned a couple of brands which I won't name yet, to avoid influencing responders' opinions. And I received one suggestion from a Crutchfield "advisor".

So my question for forum members is: Do any of you listen to "classical" music -- or similarly demanding acoustic music -- and recommend any speakers which are especially good for that?

-- Thanks in advance to any responders.

P.S. -- Minor correction, I did see one review where the reviewer wrote that he was impressed with the way the product handled "classical" music. Turns out, he was talking about the soundtrack from a Superman film.
 
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you got couple of brands to choose from.
hybrid audio
audio frog
focal utopia or krx
morel
hertz mille
audison
dynaudio
the new jl audio lines c7?

you need to go to a shop that carry those brand and are familiar with it. also youll need a good amp, dsp if you want to do more, and also run active. you dont need rears so just do a good front setup. certain brands of amp will sound different. i was told audison give a good warm sound. like mcintosh.
i might miss some brands up there, also try the forum diymobileaudio too.
if you want, you can also have someone fiberglass the a pillar to take a dedicated mid range and do 3 way system instead of the 2 way.
 
...brands to choose from.
hybrid audio
audio frog
focal utopia or krx
morel
hertz mille
audison
dynaudio
the new jl audio lines c7?
you need to go to a shop that carry those brand and are familiar with it...
DING-DING-DING [MENTION=5149]riceandpho[/MENTION] wins this round. 'Focal' was suggested by that guy from the high-end home-audio store I mentioned; I later learned that he used to be a Focal dealer before he stopped carrying car stuff.
He suggested 'DJ',a car-audio specialist about 30 minutes away. (I had already been to a couple of those hole-in-the-wall strip-mall places, with no better results than the big-box stores.) So I went to DJ yesterday after seeing your post. None of the other places I had been carried any of the brands in your list. And DJ's is in a kind of funky neighborhood near a boat-yard, so I wasn't expecting much when I drove up. But as soon as I walked in, I knew that I was in a different kind of place, as you can see in these photos:
https://www.google.com/search?q="dj+auto+sound"+greenwich

I carried in my CDs and listened to all those speakers you see in the pictures (Hertz, Audison, Focal, Pioneer). They definitely all sound distinctly better than anything I heard in the other places. But the sopranos still sounded a little "off" to me (harsh, maybe distorted), even though these speakers were all driven by high-end amps. Surprisingly, I thought the sopranos sounded best on the Pioneers,
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSZ65CH/Pioneer-TS-Z65CH.html (or maybe it was the Z65C), and
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSD69C/Pioneer-TS-D69C.html .

OTOH, all these speakers are mounted in damped and tuned cabinets, like these:
Focal Displays | Focal America
So any of them might sound very different (perhaps even better) when installed.
Also, none of them were matched for volume, which is known to make a big difference in subjective impression of sound quality. Finally, I wasn't able to listen to my own music on the Focals, because they were mounted with a HU with no CD. But the owner played some non-vocal classical via btooth.

So I need to load a bunch of my "evaluation" tracks on my phone, and go back with my db/SPL meter, so I can make sure I'm comparing apples-to-apples. And I've found a couple of other dealers within an hour's drive who also might have high-end demo-boards.

I haven't found any brick-and-mortar store in this part of the country which has any of the other brands you mentioned. And there's no way I'm going to buy a speaker without personally hearing it first -- even if it's returnable, there's just too much time and effort in installation.

...also youll need a good amp, dsp if you want to do more, and also run active.
The Kenwood HU has a 13-band EQ, 8 EQ pre-sets, "Digital Time Alignment", and independently selectable crossovers. Although you might not call it a "good amp", on CraigsList I recently got a second-hand never-used
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_130GMA4704/Pioneer-GM-A4704.html

Please explain "run active".
 
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focal display sound board will sound different when mounted in the doors.
doors need to be sound deadened inner and outer to achieve the best performance from the speaker.

only focal lines i would run is the ES 165 KX2 or the 3 ways if money is not an issue.
k and k2 is a good line too.

i had the older series which was the 165 k2p, this is the 2 way set. its in another car now.

active means that the passive crossover is not use and each amp channel is to a mid and tweet. the dsp or headunit that can do the electronic crossover is used. tweets are at 3.15khz at -18db slope. doing active you can tune how low the tweeters will play, too much zing is going to hurt the vocals.

also you will need some power to the speakers. now a days 100w a channel is going to be enough for some people, i do 150 and up.
your amp that pushes out 65w a channel at 2 ohm will be barley enough to get loud and dynamic. but should work fine for now. there is someone also selling the focal amps that do 150w a channel.

dont forget to pair up the focal with a mosconi amp. its really good. check out diyma for simplicityinsound installs. he uses alot of the mosconi amps.

try morel or hertz or audison or audiofrog gb line.

i tried something new and went with hertz mille legends. always tame the tweeter down and start at -3db. might want to go lower if its too bright. thats also if you want to run the passive crossover too.
 
make sure to listen on the soundbaord with the EQ flat, ask them to let you set your tune and have them set there own tune, then compare what sounds best.
 
Keep in mind that what you hear on the board in a store vs what you hear in a car are not close to being the same.
Showroom vs, small cabin, sitting off axis, lot's of reflective surfaces etc.
Many people have done their systems only to find that it's not what they expected.
 
focal display sound board will sound different when mounted in the doors...
Keep in mind that what you hear on the board in a store vs what you hear in a car are not close to being the same...
Yeah, that's what I was saying -- car might sound worse (OR better).
Many people have done their systems only to find that it's not what they expected.
...and that prospect scares the crap out of me. But what else can I go by? I can't even go by what the identical equipment sounds like in someone else's car, unless it's very like mine and playing similar music to mine.

A store's sound board won't be a fair comparison to the car in the lower registers. And although the imaging will be different, I'm not sure if a confined car will be better vs. worse. But I'm pretty sure that issues of the naturalness and tonality of unamplified trained singers aren't going to be all that much different in the car, except for resonances and overly-hot treble which can be equalized-out -- as long as the electronics and voice-coils aren't producing distortion (he said, optimistically...).
 
active means that the passive crossover is not use...
Got it.
only focal lines i would run...
Well, the only Focal component-sets which fit my car unmodified, according to Crutch, are
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISS165/Focal-Integration-ISS-165.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091RSE165/Focal-RSE-165.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISU165/Focal-ISU-165.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091165AS/Focal-Performance-165AS.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091PS165V1/Focal-Performance-PS-165V1.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091165AS3/Focal-Performance-165AS3.html
$3k+ for Utopia is out of the question. Just today I got an email saying that the ISS-165 is marked down from $280 to $180, and so is this component 6x9:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISS690/Focal-Integration-ISS-690.html
Crutch says the 690 is one-seventh-inch too deep for my doors, but I think I could fix that by top-mounting it on a custom baffle.
make sure to listen on the soundbaord with the EQ flat...
Yeah, did that, or at least asked the owner to. But next time I need to be sure the amps are all flat too.
audiofrog ...
Like I said, I just couldn't find a store with that and some other things. But I'll be listening to the Hertz and Audison again when I go back to DJ's.
Thanks for all the other tips -- some of the products are beyond my wallet (and maybe beyond my needs, for classical music). But your tech advice will be useful.

BTW, what kind of music do you mostly listen to?
 
Got it.

Well, the only Focal component-sets which fit my car unmodified, according to Crutch, are
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISS165/Focal-Integration-ISS-165.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091RSE165/Focal-RSE-165.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISU165/Focal-ISU-165.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091165AS/Focal-Performance-165AS.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091PS165V1/Focal-Performance-PS-165V1.html
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091165AS3/Focal-Performance-165AS3.html
$3k+ for Utopia is out of the question. Just today I got an email saying that the ISS-165 is marked down from $280 to $180, and so is this component 6x9:
https://www.crutchfield.com/p_091ISS690/Focal-Integration-ISS-690.html
Crutch says the 690 is one-seventh-inch too deep for my doors, but I think I could fix that by top-mounting it on a custom baffle.
Yeah, did that, or at least asked the owner to. But next time I need to be sure the amps are all flat too.
Like I said, I just couldn't find a store with that and some other things. But I'll be listening to the Hertz and Audison again when I go back to DJ's.
Thanks for all the other tips -- some of the products are beyond my wallet (and maybe beyond my needs, for classical music). But your tech advice will be useful.

BTW, what kind of music do you mostly listen to?

you can fit any type of mid in the door, as long you have the correct speaker adapter. pretty sure a 1 inch thick spacer will do, but if it comes close to the window, you add another 1/4 or 1/2 inch, just trim the inside door panel ring a little.

crutchfield is not always right. its a good guide, but you can fit any 6 1/2 mids in the doors. its all about using the right parts. the plastic speaker adapter will work, but not always. you can just cut your own out if you have the tools.

i started with the access line in my old 4runner, it was nice for the 5 1/4 speaker. then on my new 4runner, i was able to get the k2p which was the top back then, just a step lower than the utopias. its not for everyone.
 
whats your budget? some stuff you can do by yourself, alteast the sound deadening part and a maybe run new speaker wires. a good front setup is all you need anyway and a good subwoofer too. do you drive the truck everyday and long? do you just want to enjoy your tunes with the commute and traffic so it can calm you down.

i just enjoy this hobby, but dont want to scare people when they ask about the cost and time, its alot over the years.

now a days people want to save money, as a diyer to another, i suggest do the small stuff yourself then when the time comes go big. its always some deals getting second hand stuff, but be sure to know your stuff when buying and how much you should be paying.
 
Short of installing each speaker in your car and listening to it under controlled conditions, you aren't going to get a true A/B comparison between speakers. The best you'll be able to do in a real world is listen to them in a store.

It's very easy to get caught up in minute differences between speakers (I've done it) but you also need to take into account you will be listening while driving down the road, so noises from the road, your engine, wind and other cars are going to mask the small differences you hear in the store.

Trust your ears, buy some speakers that sound good in the store and move on to other aspects of your system.

As to your speaker question, my current system has Polk separates in the front in the factory location and MB Quarts in the rear doors.
 
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I'm not really into classical music, but I use a lot of classical when auditioning speakers and DynAudio really did an amazing job of reproducing instruments in general.

My girl listens to a lot of that type of music and guitar so she got a pair of BM5a studio monitors and over the years of listening to it it's become one of my favorite pair of speakers we own.

I would absolutely look at DynAudio... some of the other brands I own like Mackie and I really like don't really make car audio... mostly studio and rack mounted equipment for me.

I agree with the comments about auditioning speakers... you kinda need a controlled environment to really pick apart the details especially at the top end of the spectrum. Car audio is about as challenging as it gets when coming to speakers. Removing background noise, white noise, sound deadening is far more important at times than trying to throw money at a problem buying incrementally better speaker for substantially more money.

Remember, for every 3db gain in volume, you need to double amplification. Its far more efficient making a car quieter than your speakers louder.

The best advise is trust your own ears... it's literally one of the most subjective topics one can enter.
 
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...you aren't going to get a true A/B comparison... best...is listen to them in a store... Trust your ears...
I agree 100%. I really have no better way to estimate how something will sound to me except in the only place (a store) where I can actually hear it. And that's why I'm probably not going to buy certain brands which many people rave about, like AudioFrog, Morel, etc. -- because I simply haven't (yet) found any store which demos them.
...easy to get caught up in minute differences...
My hang-up isn't that I want to know that I'm getting "The Best" -- that way lies madness (and a five-figure investment). No, it's just that I want to find a decent speaker which doesn't make a soprano sound like she's being strangled, or make an string section or acoustic band sound like it's being heard through a table-top radio from the 1930s.
my current system has Polk separates in the front... MB Quarts in the rear
-- both of which were recommended to me, by a Crutch advisor (Polk) and a classical-loving long-time friend (MBQ). And I can't find either in a demo. How do you like them for acoustic / unamplified stuff?
 
DynAudio really did an amazing job of reproducing instruments...
I've heard good things. Their website is a little flakey to navigate; but you inspired me to try again, in a different browser, and I've found a place about 40 minutes away which installs their stuff. I'll call to see if they have a demo setup.
Its far more efficient making a car quieter than your speakers louder.
Excellent point. I haven't been concerned about volume as such, because I don't really like to blast it out the way people do with other music. I frequently choose to sit way up front in classical concerts because I like getting maximum separation, but that's still not as loud as people play other music in cars. But until you phrased it that way, it hadn't occurred to me to think closely about how quieting would make a big difference to the over-all experience.
 
crutchfield is not always right
OK, but here's the reason I focus on that. If I buy something from them that they say will fit, it's easier to justify returning it if they're wrong. And the details of the fitment info they give (including exactly where and how some things won't fit, and by how much, including dimensions) is generally helpful to me in seeing if some idea I have is way out of line. Of course, their "Will/Won't Fit Your Car" judgement is irrelevant for speakers I decide to mount in non-stock locations.
 
do you drive the truck everyday and long?
Almost every day, and not that long. In the year I've had it, I've only put on about 5k miles.
whats your budget?
So, this guy walks into a bar with a frog on his head. But the frog isn't just on his head, it's actually tightly attached to the top of his head, as if it had grown out of his head. The bartender is amazed, and asks, "How did you get like that?". And the frog says, "It started out as a wart on my ass!".
Well, that's like what's been happening to my audio-upgrade ambitions. I started out thinking that I'd just replace the HU, and now here I am thinking and talking about new speakers, non-stock mounting, active crossovers, etc.

I can't give you a firm number for a total budget, but I can tell you that paying $400+ for any single component makes me blanch. Unless I win the Irish Sweepstakes, I'm never going to spend $400 on AudioFrog 2-way passives. But I might spend $250 on AudioControl 4-way actives, eventually. I'm almost certainly going to wait on separate x-overs until I hear what the new HU's EQ sounds like, wait on a sub until I hear how my new woofers sound with that second-hand 4x40 Pioneer amp, etc.
 
some stuff you can do by yourself... sound deadening... speaker wires...
I'm willing to do everything myself except pull the old HU. I've seen the pictures of how it it involves opening up stuff starting way back in the console. I have clumsy fingers and insufficient patience, and I'm likely to break something which the stealership wants $1k+ to fix. "Know thyself".

But the thing is, I really hate having to do any job twice (or pay for it twice), like pulling the HU or opening the doors a second time for a later upgrade. So for a while, my plan has been to open the box when the new HU arrives, scope out the instructions, and stub-out all the connections with extra-long extensions (including the rear aux+USB inputs). Then I'll pay someone to pull the old HU and place corresponding extensions on all the left-behind connections, so that all these old+new connections will meet up somewhere below the dash, where I can get to them in the future without opening the dash. Similarly, I'm thinking that even if I put drop-in-fit speakers in the stock locations, I might decide to top-mount them so they can be pulled and replaced without opening the doors again.

In fact, I might just, before buying new speakers, move the stock front speakers to the top of the dash, just to see if there's actually any benefit to my crazy idea of putting new speakers there.
 
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i think hertz hsk 165 might work.
focal flax
morel maximo as a start up speaker until you have more funds.

really cant tell you what to buy, its all in your ears that will make you happy.

jl audio c3 or c5 components might work.

the hertz hsk are being discontinued so you might get a good deal, its replaced by the mille pro.


if you do plan on active, you can also try stereo integrity. m25 tweeter and tm65 mk3 or second hand mk2
Products | Stereo Integrity

looks affordable.
 
OK, but here's the reason I focus on that. If I buy something from them that they say will fit, it's easier to justify returning it if they're wrong. And the details of the fitment info they give (including exactly where and how some things won't fit, and by how much, including dimensions) is generally helpful to me in seeing if some idea I have is way out of line. Of course, their "Will/Won't Fit Your Car" judgement is irrelevant for speakers I decide to mount in non-stock locations.

i think its the depth they worry about, like anything more than 3, the plastic spacer they have is not thick enough to clear the magnet to window. now if you cut the spacers out of mdf or pvc, you can do like 1 inch thick or 1.25 inch thick and it should give the clearance.

you can buy the custom cut speaker spacers off ebay, or just pay the shop couple of bucks to fab one up.
just read the extra notes on why it wont fit.

also with focals, i would start using the tweeters at -3 first on the passive crossover, focals are known to have a bright tweeter try 0 or -3 but not +3, you will hear a difference when its up. usually soundboards they have tweeters at +3. but some will set at 0.
 
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