Basic Brake question - Wagner Thermoquiet Ceramic

[SkidPalace]

Hi all,
I have a basic brake job question that maybe some of you can answer.
I recently installed new pads and rotors on my '00 4R and I have an odd sound/vibration coming from the new combo.
I installed the plain-jane Wearever rotors from Advance Auto with Wagner Thermoquiets. The installation went fairly well with the exception of a major struggle to remove the rusted pad retaining pins.
I was suprised to hear that the pads come with no anti-squeal grease and no shims. The guys from two shops said the ceramic Thermoquiets don't need either. Does this sound normal?
Also, I am getting a slight vibration when stopping a low speed with the new pads. I can only describe it as a buzz or a hum if that makes sense. It seems to go away if the braking gets more frequent/severe. I am assuming the pads may be heating up and the problem is going away.
Mind you, I only drove the truck twice so far with the new pads for a total of about 10 miles. The hone marks are still clearly visible in the rotors.
One thing I realize I may have to get back into the calipers for is that I didn't use grease anywhere on the install. I ran out of daylight and was rushing to finish up. In retrospect, the pads went in tight due to the channels being a bit rusted. I assume I should pull the pads and scrape the channels so that the pads slide in without resistance, than grease the hell out of the channels and pad retaining pins?

 

[JeremyH]

That sounds correct. EBC pads dont use shims and they dont recommend brake quite on their pads either.

After you installed the pads, when you spun the tire, did you hear any rubbing? Is it pulling to one side or another during braking?

 

[SkidPalace]

That sounds correct. EBC pads dont use shims and they dont recommend brake quite on their pads either.

After you installed the pads, when you spun the tire, did you hear any rubbing? Is it pulling to one side or another during braking?

I did get some minor binding on the right side and a really tight fit on the left. After install, it took a bit of might to turn the wheel by hand up on the jack stands. I figured it would free up after I worked them in a bit. It did but it still does not spin totally freely, neither wheel does. I assumed that they will wear in with more miles.
The more I think about it, the more I am feeling like an idiot.
I did not notice any pulling to the side. During my break-in runs (seven or eight 60-5mph hard stops) they actually felt very strong and smooth. There was no sign of any issues druing or after the break-in runs on Sunday night, a la the Stoptech procedure. I didn't drive the truck on Monday, and it wasn't until today that I noticed the vibration.

 

[JeremyH]

Hummm....well, it's possible that the pads are too thick for your application, but doubtful. Maybe you can give it a few hundred more miles and see if the vibration disappears.

 

[theizzardking]

I did get some minor binding on the right side and a really tight fit on the left. After install, it took a bit of might to turn the wheel by hand up on the jack stands. I figured it would free up after I worked them in a bit. It did but it still does not spin totally freely, neither wheel does. I assumed that they will wear in with more miles.
The more I think about it, the more I am feeling like an idiot.
I did not notice any pulling to the side. During my break-in runs (seven or eight 60-5mph hard stops) they actually felt very strong and smooth. There was no sign of any issues druing or after the break-in runs on Sunday night, a la the Stoptech procedure. I didn't drive the truck on Monday, and it wasn't until today that I noticed the vibration.

your not going to achieve this in your garage....

"With one qualifier, (((presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat)) and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification"


you'll need a dial indicator to know if it's flat which after so many miles of grit and exposure it's not going to be, the article is correct in most aspects, but doesn't apply to our reality, meaning that for you to replace all of the components to the engineering standards that are created and adhered to by the factory is pretty dam slim, not saying it can't be done but it's alot of work and would require all new components or at the very least to have every component surface machined to avoid the inevitable tolerance stack up.

the work around i found and i'm preaching it, is to get the rotors turned on the hub, what that does is take out the tolerance build up from the hub and wheel flange and gives you that flatness that your looking for,
i suck at explaining this stuff, but it works like this

you got some minor rust/grit/scratches on your hub so it's no longer flat,
you put your new nicely machined perfectly flat rotor on there and the original loss of flatness due to rust/grit/scratches on the hub are now
amplified and moved to the front of the rotor and will now have a wobble when you turn the wheel by hand (very very small but it's there)
then you put your brake pads on and now get jutting or pulsing or how ever you want to describe it when you brake,

by turning the rotor on the hub the loss of flatness from the hub is nullfied by having the outer surface of the rotor machined flat from where it sits and takes that tolerance stack up out of the equation. now your rotors should be the correct flatness,thickness and the break pads should be optimally aligned.

but that's me and how i look at it now after having the same problems as you and after spending way to much money chasing the problem down .

also keep in mind when engineers make things they have an allowable tolerance in their design so you do get some room to play around with all of this stuff and as just a number i have only had to have the rotors turned on the with 4 of the 12 cars i've owned.


make your own judgments and decisions this is just my personal experience and pov on the article linked above.:gun4:

 

[LINY4Runner]

First thing I would do is get in there, wire brush the insides of the calipers where the sides of the pads contact, but don't grease in here. Wire brush and grease the hell out of the slide pins and hardware.

it sounds like something is binding...it should go away after more driving...break-in is usually around 500 miles total

 

[SkidPalace]

First thing I would do is get in there, wire brush the insides of the calipers where the sides of the pads contact, but don't grease in here. Wire brush and grease the hell out of the slide pins and hardware.

it sounds like something is binding...it should go away after more driving...break-in is usually around 500 miles total

Ah, ok, DON"T grease the slots the pads sit in. They were very corroded (128K New England miles) with flaking rust which I chipped away. I had to really pull like hell to get the old pads out. When I jammed the new pads in, I had to tap them in pretty good as they did not slide in. I will go back in and clean out the guides a little better. Maybe some naval jelly, or will that be a waste of time? I will also grease the new retaining pins (I replaced them all after spending 2 1/2 hours getting them rusty ones out). The rest of the calipers looked great all things considered. In fact, I am thinking about painting them red when I get back in there to go with my red TRD emblems and Hella horns lurking behind the grille.