Bleeding brakes, what gives feels like pourage?

[Champ306]

Ok, had frozen front caliper. R&R caliper, let fluid flow into caliper, close bleeder. Try bleeding ole fashion way, key off. Worse.
Try bleeding with key in on position. Rf,rl,rr then lr. Nada, no joy, brake pedal feels like mush. Went thru 2'5 quarts bleeding/flushing. No leaks. I just am not getting solid pedal, it goes about to floor .. Any help/ideas?

 

[pearlj10]

You should do it with the key on, not just at the acc position but on, and start at right rear, left rear, right front, and finally left front. I'd try that, at least two cycles worth, and see how your pedal is feeling from there. Good luck.

 

[Champ306]

thanks Pearl.

I dont know, I have done a fair share of brakes, but this is a new one. I have tried with the Key on. no joy.

tried another guys technique on here of , pump up, turn key on, pump up, stage bleeding stuff, pump a little, bleed, close. go around car, nothing, mabye just the tiniest bit better. I dont know what I am missing here, usually its not this hard. I hear the servo doing its thing up front. I have not totally flushed the fluid out, I guess thats a good thing.

 

[DocMT]

You definitely need to bleed the brakes again. Start at the wheel furthest from the master cylinder and end at the wheel closest to the master cylinder. When bleeding the rear brakes, you need someone to apply the brake pedal (not pump it) while you open the bleeder. The pump will continually force fluid out of the bleeder until you close it. Just be careful not to let the master cylinder run dry.

When you get to the front brakes, you have to have your buddy pump the brake pedal (because the pump will not continually force fluid out of the bleed like it does in the rear brakes). Do it right and you'll be back to that perfect brake pedal feel.

 

[KB084RUNNER]

Key on. Do not pump up. Pressure on pedal, open bleeder, pedal drops & hold down, close bleeder. Repeat 7 times on front 15 times on rear. You have now flushed the system. Simple.

Oh yeah, don't forget to keep re-filling the MC.

 

[Champ306]

thanks guys for helping. I guess I will try again tonight and see what I come up with. I did pump last night when doing the Back brakes, so maybe that screwed it up. not sure.

far cry from "old" car brakes.

 

[cabowally]

Some of these recommendations may work but the 2003 FSM says:

4. BLEED BRAKE LINE
(a) Connect the vinyl tube to the brake caliper.
(b) Ignition key is turn to ON.
(c) Depress the brake pedal several times, and then loosen
the bleeder plug with the pedal held down.
(d) At the point when fluid stops coming out, tighten the
bleeder plug, then release the brake pedal.
(e) Repeat (b) and (c) until all the air in the fluid has been bled
out.
(f) Repeat the above procedure to bleed the brake line for
each wheel.
Torque: 11 N·m (112 kgf·cm, 8 ft·lbf)
5. CHECK FLUID LEVEL IN RESERVOIR
(a) With the ignition switch to OFF, depress the brake pedal
more than 40 times.
HINT:
When a pressure in power supply system is released, reaction
force becomes lighter and stroke becomes longer.
(b) Remove the reservoir cap. Add brake fluid up to the
”MAX” line.
Fluid: SAE J1703 or FMVSS NO. 116 DOT3

The attached has the procedures for bleeding the MC if necessary.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE 2007 FSM says:

BRAKE FLUID

BLEEDING

NOTICE:

Wash off brake fluid immediately if it comes into contact with a painted surface.
If the brake pedal is depressed with the reservoir cap removed, then brake fluid will spatter.

HINT:

If any work is done on the brake system or if air in the brake lines is suspected, bleed the air from the system.
When bleeding, keep the amount of the fluid between the Min. and Max. lines on the reservoir.

FILL RESERVOIR WITH BRAKE FLUID Fluid: SAE J1703 or FMVSS NO. 116 DOT3
BLEED BRAKE BOOSTER W/ACCUMULATOR PUMP ASSEMBLY HINT: Perform this step only if the brake booster with accumulator pump assembly is removed and/or installed.

(a) Turn the ignition switch off, depress the brake pedal 20 times or more , and release the pressure from the accumulator.
(b) Fully depress the brake pedal 10 times .
(c) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and start the brake booster pump.
(d) Make sure the pump operates for 8 to 14 seconds .
If the pump does not operate as specified, repeat steps (a) to (c) and recheck the operating time.



BLEED BRAKE LINE

(a) Front brake line
(1) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and wait until the pump motor has stopped.
(2) Connect the vinyl tube to the brake caliper.
(3) Depress the brake pedal several times, then loosen the bleeder plug with the pedal held down.
(4) At the point when the fluid stops coming out, tighten the bleeder plug, then release the brake pedal.
Torque: 11 Nm (112 kgf/cm, 8 ft. lbs.)
(5) Repeat (3) and (4) until all the air in the fluid has been bled out.
(6) Repeat the above procedures to bleed the other brake line.



(b) Rear brake line
(1) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position and depress the brake pedal.
(2) Connect the vinyl tube to the brake caliper.
(3) Loosen the bleeder plug and release air.

HINT: Brake fluid is sent through the pump, so keep the brake pedal depressed until the air is completely bled out.

(4) When the air is completely bled out of the brake fluid through the bleeder plug, tighten the bleeder plug.
Torque: 11 Nm (112 kgf/cm, 8 ft. lbs.)
(5) Repeat the above procedures to bleed the other brake line.



BLEED MASTER CYLINDER SOLENOID HINT: Perform this step only if the master cylinder solenoid is removed and/or installed.

(a) Connect the intelligent tester to the DLC3.
(b) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position.
(c) Select "ACTIVE TEST" mode on the intelligent tester.
(d) Connect the vinyl tube to the rear brake caliper.
(e) Loosen the bleeder plug.
(f) Select "SRMF & SRMR" to drive the solenoids and bleed air from the rear brake caliper.

NOTICE: Do not depress the brake pedal.

HINT:

Brake fluid is sent through the pump.
To protect the solenoids, the intelligent tester turns OFF automatically 2 seconds after every solenoid has been turned ON.

(g) Repeat step (f) until all the air in the brake fluid is bled out.
(h) When the air is completely bled out of the brake fluid through the bleeder plug, tighten the bleeder plug.
Torque: 11 Nm (112 kgf/cm, 8 ft. lbs.)
(i) Repeat the above procedures to bleed the other brake line.
(j) Turn the ignition switch off.
(k) Turn the ignition switch to the ON position.
(l) Clear DTC.

CHECK FLUID LEVEL IN RESERVOIR

 

[03_4x4Runner]

I just did my 03 last week. To do the rear turn the key on, have someone hold the brake pedal down, Open the bleeder and the fluid will come out in a strong stream until the bleeder is closed. Do not let the reservoir run low. Lights will come on on the dash and a buzzer was going off during this procedure. The fronts do not work this way. It is like a old car. The key does not have to be on. Have someone push the brake, open the bleeder, when the pedal is to the floor close the valve. Have the person release the brake, Repeat until all bubbles are gone and the fluid is clean. Start the engine and pump the brakes several times. My fluid had to be topped off after the engine was started and the brakes pumped.

 

[DocMT]

Key on. Do not pump up. Pressure on pedal, open bleeder, pedal drops & hold down, close bleeder. Repeat 7 times on front 15 times on rear. You have now flushed the system. Simple.

Oh yeah, don't forget to keep re-filling the MC.

With the key on and the brake pedal depressed, the rear brakes will continually pump out brake fluid for as long as the bleeder is open (or the master cylinder runs dry).

And 7 cycles on the front brakes will not flush the system. It might be enough to get air out of the system, but flushing the system means that you've expelled all the old fluid and replaced it with fresh fluid. 7 cycles isn't nearly enough to accomplish that.

 

[Champ306]

Roger that guys, I will give it a whirl, seems like my main mistake was pumping the back ones and bleeding.

I will hopefully with everyone's help have much better luck tonight.

 

[Dawg4Runner]

Is it possible that the coordination between the brake person and the bleeder valve person is off? You should not take pressure off the pedal before the valve is closed. Air might be getting back in the system. I use a Mityvac and it makes the process so much simpler. No yelling back and forth and no worrying about refilling the MC. Well worth the initial investment and has paid off for itself. One person job so you don't have to go recruiting someone else.

 

[Champ306]

Well I wish I had one of those tools. Alas, I bled brakes 3 times tonight with marginal results. Better, but far from good power.

If I pump brakes hard and fast, the idiot lights and buzzer for brakes come on. ? Not a good feeling. Drove it around my land and it does stop. At a loss, 3 times bled and each time air comes out of all 4. Cant figure that out.

Not sure but questioning master cylinder. Or it needs dealer love with special tools? Cant get in shop til next thursday. Ugh.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

It sounds like you may have let the reservoir run down to low at some point and got air in the system. I would bleed several more times and see what happens. Also do you here the abs pump run when you first turn the key on? Maybe you overheated it and blew the fuse.

 

[DocMT]

Not sure but questioning master cylinder. Or it needs dealer love with special tools? Cant get in shop til next thursday. Ugh.

If you got air in the master cylinder, you'll have no choice but to bring the car back to the dealer. A special scan tool is required to bleed the air out of the master cylinder. It's not a do-it-yourself job.

 

[Champ306]

thanks guys, great info. Yeah I think that is what I am fighting with this thing, as no matter what brakes are marginal. but not strong, and you can jump under there and bleed and still get air.

I will have to wait til late next week, earliest dealer can get me in, sucks. but not much I can do.

appreciate all the help.

 

[Kmvreter]

If you got air in the master cylinder, you'll have no choice but to bring the car back to the dealer. A special scan tool is required to bleed the air out of the master cylinder. It's not a do-it-yourself job.

I'm not sure that is correct. I think the multiple pumping with the ignition OFF (before bleeding) in the instructions cabowally posted above is the manual way of bleeding the MC. I found those previously in my '04 FSM (I don't have access to the files at this time so I'm going from memory on the method I've used.)
I've had to do this a few times because of multiple caliper changes (famous frozen piston) and it has helped clear the spongy feel. Just take your time to pump slowly as if you were doing many multiple brakings. You'll feel the pedal resistance change as you run out of power assist but keep going for additional benefit. It's not a race to clear the fluid. It needs time to flow and for the air to bubble upwards.

 

[DocMT]

I'm not sure that is correct. I think the multiple pumping with the ignition OFF (before bleeding) in the instructions cabowally posted above is the manual way of bleeding the MC. I found those previously in my '04 FSM (I don't have access to the files at this time so I'm going from memory on the method I've used.)
I've had to do this a few times because of multiple caliper changes (famous frozen piston) and it has helped clear the spongy feel. Just take your time to pump slowly as if you were doing many multiple brakings. You'll feel the pedal resistance change as you run out of power assist but keep going for additional benefit. It's not a race to clear the fluid. It needs time to flow and for the air to bubble upwards.

If you've ever read the Chilton or Haynes manual for the 4th gen 4Runner, it will warn you not to let the fluid level drop low enough for air to enter the master cylinder. Doing so will mean a trip to the dealer because it cannot be bled manually.

If you know of a way to do it, please share it with us because I would love to know if they are wrong about that.

 

[cabowally]

If you've ever read the Chilton or Haynes manual for the 4th gen 4Runner, it will warn you not to let the fluid level drop low enough for air to enter the master cylinder. Doing so will mean a trip to the dealer because it cannot be bled manually.

If you know of a way to do it, please share it with us because I would love to know if they are wrong about that.

AutoEnginuity® - OBD2 Scan Tool - Professional PC and PDA Diagnostics will do the MC bleed procedure.

 

[DocMT]

AutoEnginuity® - OBD2 Scan Tool - Professional PC and PDA Diagnostics will do the MC bleed procedure.

Good to know...thanks for the info!

 

[Kmvreter]

If you've ever read the Chilton or Haynes manual for the 4th gen 4Runner, it will warn you not to let the fluid level drop low enough for air to enter the master cylinder. Doing so will mean a trip to the dealer because it cannot be bled manually.

If you know of a way to do it, please share it with us because I would love to know if they are wrong about that.

I've never run the fluid below low and sucked air.
Please see the '04 FSM pages attached. I followed steps 2.(a) to (e). This restores the solid feel for me. I've had to do it several times a week apart on occasion to get it right.
I believe the steps in the FSM from 2.(f) on are to bleed the ABS actuator portion of the MC. I know it says to use a hand-held tester or ABS actuator checker but I've had good results by repeating the steps above. Then again, I've never run the fluid low and may not be encountering the same issue.

It would be nice to get a scan tool that can do this so the link cabowally gave will be helpful. (cabowally, would you mind starting a thread to review that Scantool if you have it?)

To the OP (Champ306),
Is your brake line connection to the caliper tight? Any chance it is slowly sucking in air?