Brake pedal is very inconsistent! What is going on???

theoutbackdream

New member
Hello all,

My brake pedal is very inconsistent as sometimes when I brake, the pedal is very firm and barely takes any pressure on the pedal to get the car to stop. Other times, the pedal needs to go almost 60% of the way down to even get it to start braking. I bled the brakes thinking there was air in system, but after going through 2qts of brake fluid and finding no air whatsoever, I gave up.

The only thing I have done brake wise recently was swapping a brake line. I bled the system completely and didn't have any problems for awhile. This inconsistency happened about a few weeks after I did the brake line....


Any thoughts?
 
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Its the ABS computer playing with the valves and reading sensor values for some strange subroutine. I still haven't figured out why its doing that. Mine does it too.
 
Check your wheel bearings. When bad, the rotor floats around and pushes the pistons further into their bores meaning sometimes when you push the brake your pushing the pistons out further than normaly required.

I was going crazy with the same issue, turned out to be the driver's side wheel bearing. Never even made a grinding noise like they usually do when they're on the way out, but it had an absolutely scary amount of play.
 
Hello all,

My brake pedal is very inconsistent as sometimes when I brake, the pedal is very firm and barely takes any pressure on the pedal to get the car to stop. Other times, the pedal needs to go almost 60% of the way down to even get it to start braking. I bled the brakes thinking there was air in system, but after going through 2qts of brake fluid and finding no air whatsoever, I gave up.

The only thing I have done brake wise recently was swapping a brake line. I bled the system completely and didn't have any problems for awhile. This inconsistency happened about a few weeks after I did the brake line....


Any thoughts?

Its the ABS computer playing with the valves and reading sensor values for some strange subroutine. I still haven't figured out why its doing that. Mine does it too.

I don't have any input here to help with this issue, but very interested in anything to do with these brake systems, Duffdog, how are you so sure it's the ABS computer..."playing with the valves and reading sensor values for some strange subroutine..." is this just an assumption/guess on your part or.....?

Duffdog not meaning to doubt you, but as mentioned interested in any knowedge on this subject for the future and or to help others if needed, since all of our T4Rs are only getting older and will at some point will need various systems repaired or replaced and these brake systems are an expensive item to have go out so I want to know how to do the diagnosing and repairing myself.
 
Check your wheel bearings. When bad, the rotor floats around and pushes the pistons further into their bores meaning sometimes when you push the brake your pushing the pistons out further than normaly required.

I was going crazy with the same issue, turned out to be the driver's side wheel bearing. Never even made a grinding noise like they usually do when they're on the way out, but it had an absolutely scary amount of play.

The fronts are 4 piston calipers. There should be equal distribution of pressure on both sides of the rotor keeping it centered on the bearing.
 
I don't have any input here to help with this issue, but very interested in anything to do with these brake systems, Duffdog, how are you so sure it's the ABS computer..."playing with the valves and reading sensor values for some strange subroutine..." is this just an assumption/guess on your part or.....?

Duffdog not meaning to doubt you, but as mentioned interested in any knowedge on this subject for the future and or to help others if needed, since all of our T4Rs are only getting older and will at some point will need various systems repaired or replaced and these brake systems are an expensive item to have go out so I want to know how to do the diagnosing and repairing myself.

To be very clear about what I am talking about: If you are braking and one front wheel goes into a pothole and the other does not, the ABS system releases the brake pressure on all wheels regardless of how hard you are pushing on the pedal, then it reapplies the brake pressure automatically and modulates all 4 wheels with no change in pedal input from the driver. This is obviously a firmware bug or some funny application of velocity sensing for the ABS system by the computer but it is not repairable, nor is it broken, it was simply programmed that way for an unknown reason. I have just learned to live with it as every 4th gen 4runner I have driven does this.
 
Lots of bad information in this thread. Let me start by explaining how the hydraulic system works and my personal experience with poor braking in regards to my 2007 4wd sr5. This is not meant to step on the toes of previous posts, but should clear things up. I hope this can act as a reference for other members as theres a ton of assumptions as to how this system works, but not a whole lot of published information.

Here is a very brief explanation of how the hydraulic booster works: Brake assist force is created by pressurizing an accumulator (basically a small tank) with brake fluid. When you depress the brake pedal, pressurized brake fluid is released from the accumulator and helps with braking force. An outright failure of this system would result in a very firm brake pedal with very little travel. All the braking assist force lost would have to be supplemented by means of your leg.

My experience - About three months ago I noticed that my runners braking pressure and pedal travel became very inconsistent. There didn't seem to be any logic or correlation as to when the pedal feel would be ok or when it would require more force or the travel would increase. So I did the go-to first steps without any real diagnosis. I bled the brake system multiple times and activated abs on damp roads, but this didn't seem to help. I knew all of the calipers were fine as I replaced them all just less than a year ago.

I began researching how the hydraulic system works and decided to buy a m-vci cable and install techstream. Since there wasn't what I would consider a hardware issue from the brake lines at the hydraulic booster, down to the calipers, I assumed there must be something wrong with the hydraulic booster.

With techstream I began logging vehicle speed, master cylinder pressure sensor voltage, accumulator pressure, and brake pedal switch state. I logged this to and from work for a total of 3 hours and then parsed through the data. What I found surprised me, and taught me volumes about the system and logic used to control it.

The data showed the electric motor pressurizes the accumulator with brake fluid until the accumulator pressure sensor reaches 3.8 volts. When the accumulator pressure sensor dips below 3.2 volts the electric motor cycles again until the 3.8 volt conditional is reached. Therefore, we can deduce that any time the accumulator sensor voltage is between 3.2 - 3.8 volts we should have all the braking force the toyota engineers designed into the system. Additionally, if the voltage drops too low, as in the event an accumulator or booster motor failure, an alarm will sound indicating a brake system failure and a DTC will be set.

Well bummer, it appears everything is in range… hmmmm. Knowing that data doesn’t lie I had to revaluate my approach. During college, and for 3 years after, I worked as a technician for Honda. I began racking my brain trying to think of interesting braking cases. I distinctly could recall a pilot that came in complaining of inconsistent braking. I test drove the car and the right front wheel bearing was so loud it sounded like a helicopter. I racked the car and there was almost a quarter inch of play in the bearing. The advisor sold the wheel bearing citing it as a safety issue and told the customer the brake diagnosis would follow afterward. I certainly wasn’t going to be driving this vehicle until that bearing was replaced. So I replaced the bearing and much to my surprise the inconsistent braking issue was resolved. Play in the bearing allowed the pistons to be depressed and subsequently when braking more travel was required to push the pistons out of their bores.

Remembering this, I decided to check the wheel bearings and found the left front had failed. It had significant play in it. I replaced the wheel bearing an my braking issues were resolved.

Lessons learned or reinforced:
1.) A bad wheel bearing can manifest itself as a braking issue

2.) Wheel bearings can fail quietly. (I’ve replaced tons of wheel bearings and never have had a sealed unit bearing type fail quietly.)
 
The fronts are 4 piston calipers. There should be equal distribution of pressure on both sides of the rotor keeping it centered on the bearing.

That sounds good in theory, but how are we supposed to know the path of least resistance isn't sending fluid back up the line to the master cylinder. It may certainly take more force to push the opposing pistons out than push the fluid up the line. And with no check valve theres nothing stopping brake fluid flow in the opposite direction. Also, take into consideration that these vehicles are known to have stuck piston syndrome.

Also, with no brake pedal pressure there's no line pressure. When cruising around foot off brake no pressure means the rotor moves around as much as the bearing allows it.

In my case, even with almost brand new calipers (less than 10k), pistons were being pushed into their bores causing this issue.
 
That sounds good in theory, but how are we supposed to know the path of least resistance isn't sending fluid back up the line to the master cylinder. It may certainly take more force to push the opposing pistons out than push the fluid up the line. And with no check valve theres nothing stopping brake fluid flow in the opposite direction. Also, take into consideration that these vehicles are known to have stuck piston syndrome.

Also, with no brake pedal pressure there's no line pressure. When cruising around foot off brake no pressure means the rotor moves around as much as the bearing allows it.

In my case, even with almost brand new calipers (less than 10k), pistons were being pushed into their bores causing this issue.

Did you diagnose the bearings by measuring play with a wheel jacked off the ground?
 
Its the ABS computer playing with the valves and reading sensor values for some strange subroutine. I still haven't figured out why its doing that. Mine does it too.

To be very clear about what I am talking about: If you are braking and one front wheel goes into a pothole and the other does not, the ABS system releases the brake pressure on all wheels regardless of how hard you are pushing on the pedal, then it reapplies the brake pressure automatically and modulates all 4 wheels with no change in pedal input from the driver. This is obviously a firmware bug or some funny application of velocity sensing for the ABS system by the computer but it is not repairable, nor is it broken, it was simply programmed that way for an unknown reason. I have just learned to live with it as every 4th gen 4runner I have driven does this.

This isn't what i'm experiencing. What i'm experiencing is when I press on the brake, even when the road is completely flat/smooth, the brake pressure needed can vary just out of no where. It's as if suddenly, there's air in the system, then the next time I brake, nothing. Would this still be related to the ABS?

And the problem with what you are saying is that I had no issues prior for the 10k miles i've owned it. It just happened out of no where. If it happened after doing a brake job, it should've come up after, but as mentioned in the OP, this came up a few weeks after doing a brake line, to which I bled all the lines.
 
Check your wheel bearings. When bad, the rotor floats around and pushes the pistons further into their bores meaning sometimes when you push the brake your pushing the pistons out further than normaly required.

I was going crazy with the same issue, turned out to be the driver's side wheel bearing. Never even made a grinding noise like they usually do when they're on the way out, but it had an absolutely scary amount of play.

Saw the video you posted, and lifted the truck. There's no wheel play at all, and I doubt I have wheel bearing problems.
 
Lots of bad information in this thread. Let me start by explaining how the hydraulic system works and my personal experience with poor braking in regards to my 2007 4wd sr5. This is not meant to step on the toes of previous posts, but should clear things up. I hope this can act as a reference for other members as theres a ton of assumptions as to how this system works, but not a whole lot of published information.

Here is a very brief explanation of how the hydraulic booster works: Brake assist force is created by pressurizing an accumulator (basically a small tank) with brake fluid. When you depress the brake pedal, pressurized brake fluid is released from the accumulator and helps with braking force. An outright failure of this system would result in a very firm brake pedal with very little travel. All the braking assist force lost would have to be supplemented by means of your leg.

My experience - About three months ago I noticed that my runners braking pressure and pedal travel became very inconsistent. There didn't seem to be any logic or correlation as to when the pedal feel would be ok or when it would require more force or the travel would increase. So I did the go-to first steps without any real diagnosis. I bled the brake system multiple times and activated abs on damp roads, but this didn't seem to help. I knew all of the calipers were fine as I replaced them all just less than a year ago.

I began researching how the hydraulic system works and decided to buy a m-vci cable and install techstream. Since there wasn't what I would consider a hardware issue from the brake lines at the hydraulic booster, down to the calipers, I assumed there must be something wrong with the hydraulic booster.

With techstream I began logging vehicle speed, master cylinder pressure sensor voltage, accumulator pressure, and brake pedal switch state. I logged this to and from work for a total of 3 hours and then parsed through the data. What I found surprised me, and taught me volumes about the system and logic used to control it.

The data showed the electric motor pressurizes the accumulator with brake fluid until the accumulator pressure sensor reaches 3.8 volts. When the accumulator pressure sensor dips below 3.2 volts the electric motor cycles again until the 3.8 volt conditional is reached. Therefore, we can deduce that any time the accumulator sensor voltage is between 3.2 - 3.8 volts we should have all the braking force the toyota engineers designed into the system. Additionally, if the voltage drops too low, as in the event an accumulator or booster motor failure, an alarm will sound indicating a brake system failure and a DTC will be set.

Well bummer, it appears everything is in range… hmmmm. Knowing that data doesn’t lie I had to revaluate my approach. During college, and for 3 years after, I worked as a technician for Honda. I began racking my brain trying to think of interesting braking cases. I distinctly could recall a pilot that came in complaining of inconsistent braking. I test drove the car and the right front wheel bearing was so loud it sounded like a helicopter. I racked the car and there was almost a quarter inch of play in the bearing. The advisor sold the wheel bearing citing it as a safety issue and told the customer the brake diagnosis would follow afterward. I certainly wasn’t going to be driving this vehicle until that bearing was replaced. So I replaced the bearing and much to my surprise the inconsistent braking issue was resolved. Play in the bearing allowed the pistons to be depressed and subsequently when braking more travel was required to push the pistons out of their bores.

Remembering this, I decided to check the wheel bearings and found the left front had failed. It had significant play in it. I replaced the wheel bearing an my braking issues were resolved.

Lessons learned or reinforced:
1.) A bad wheel bearing can manifest itself as a braking issue

2.) Wheel bearings can fail quietly. (I’ve replaced tons of wheel bearings and never have had a sealed unit bearing type fail quietly.)

I don't really understand. Isn't the system always under pressure? Or at least, sealed keeping some amount of pressure? I always had the assumption that our systems are under pressure, then pressurized to make the calipers contract/expand.

I checked my wheel bearings but they're fine.. :/
 
This isn't what i'm experiencing. What i'm experiencing is when I press on the brake, even when the road is completely flat/smooth, the brake pressure needed can vary just out of no where. It's as if suddenly, there's air in the system, then the next time I brake, nothing. Would this still be related to the ABS?

And the problem with what you are saying is that I had no issues prior for the 10k miles i've owned it. It just happened out of no where. If it happened after doing a brake job, it should've come up after, but as mentioned in the OP, this came up a few weeks after doing a brake line, to which I bled all the lines.

You know, I had something like this happen on my old Tacoma truck with a supercharger. When the supercharger kicked in, it would reverse the vacuum, create boost in all the lines and I would have no brake assist. Fixed by putting in a check valve on the brake booster line. The newer trucks are completely electrical and have no vacuum lines, so your only choice would be to get an air-vacuum adapter to bleed the whole system, replace the master cylinder or as a last resort replace the entire ABS brake booster assembly. Perhaps there is still a bit of air in the system?
 
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You know, I had something like this happen on my old Tacoma truck with a supercharger. When the supercharger kicked in, it would reverse the vacuum, create boost in all the lines and I would have no brake assist. Fixed by putting in a check valve on the brake booster line. The newer trucks are completely electrical and have no vacuum lines, so your only choice would be to get an air-vacuum adapter to bleed the whole system, replace the master cylinder or as a last resort replace the entire ABS brake booster assembly. Perhaps there is still a bit of air in the system?

Jesus.. Sounds costly... Maybe i'll go ahead and bleed the system again..

Just want to make sure i'm not dumb and the 4r doesn't require a special method of bleeding the brakes, as i've done the same pattern to many other cars without problems.. But we do start bleeding from the farthest from the Master cylinder, pump 3 times and hold, and open the bleeder valve. That should be it, like every car?

Is there a way to cycle the ABS system?

One interesting thought came into mind from another poster about an electric motor pressuring the accumulator.. [MENTION=121266]mar5168[/MENTION]
Is there a way to cycle this and make sure it's pressurized completely while bleeding the system?
 
Jesus.. Sounds costly... Maybe i'll go ahead and bleed the system again..

Just want to make sure i'm not dumb and the 4r doesn't require a special method of bleeding the brakes, as i've done the same pattern to many other cars without problems.. But we do start bleeding from the farthest from the Master cylinder, pump 3 times and hold, and open the bleeder valve. That should be it, like every car?

Is there a way to cycle the ABS system?

One interesting thought came into mind from another poster about an electric motor pressuring the accumulator.. [MENTION=121266]mar5168[/MENTION]
Is there a way to cycle this and make sure it's pressurized completely while bleeding the system?

If you have a vacuum air bleeder adapter thing, you do not pump the brakes, you just connect the bleeder and let it do its thing until you can see clear brake fluid coming out, you repeat this process for every brake cylinder. In regards to the ABS activation, I believe I saw a techstream section under "live test" that would let you cycle the abs system.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016M68PUW?psc=1
 
If you have a vacuum air bleeder adapter thing, you do not pump the brakes, you just connect the bleeder and let it do its thing until you can see clear brake fluid coming out, you repeat this process for every brake cylinder. In regards to the ABS activation, I believe I saw a techstream section under "live test" that would let you cycle the abs system.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016M68PUW?psc=1

Yea I wish I had a air bleeder thing.. but just too costly. haha

Hmm.. I'll have to look into that... thanks!
 
im using the motive product fluid extractor, works fine for me, sometimes i think i should of went to harbor freight and got the air fluid extractor just like that amazon link, i think they only cost 20 or so.
 
Jesus.. Sounds costly... Maybe i'll go ahead and bleed the system again..

Just want to make sure i'm not dumb and the 4r doesn't require a special method of bleeding the brakes, as i've done the same pattern to many other cars without problems.. But we do start bleeding from the farthest from the Master cylinder, pump 3 times and hold, and open the bleeder valve. That should be it, like every car?

Is there a way to cycle the ABS system?

One interesting thought came into mind from another poster about an electric motor pressuring the accumulator.. [MENTION=121266]mar5168[/MENTION]
Is there a way to cycle this and make sure it's pressurized completely while bleeding the system?

As long as the key is not in the off position the accumulator will always be charged.

Sounds like you're air bound somewhere.

Here's what I would do:

1.) Take it for a drive and get the ABS to actuate. This can free up any air bound up in the system.

2.) Bleed the brakes again.

If you have access to techstream you can use it to bleed the rear brakes. It'll run the booster eliminating the whole pump, pump, loosen method.

Front brakes need to be bled as normal.
 
As long as the key is not in the off position the accumulator will always be charged.

Sounds like you're air bound somewhere.

Here's what I would do:

1.) Take it for a drive and get the ABS to actuate. This can free up any air bound up in the system.

2.) Bleed the brakes again.

If you have access to techstream you can use it to bleed the rear brakes. It'll run the booster eliminating the whole pump, pump, loosen method.

Front brakes need to be bled as normal.

I took the car to some moguls and kept going at the moguls after a few times, the brakes got significantly tighter, and the more and more I did it, the much better the brake pedal felt, but would get closer to the floorboard. I probably did the moguls a total of 10 times. Went home and bled the brakes. It was just air coming out for a good while. After I bled the brakes, the brakes felt solid, consistent AND worked with little effort/pressure on the pedal. YESSSSS!!! Thank you!!!!
 

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