CAFE Standards & the Evolution of the 4Runner

[Muddy Duck]

In 2009, the Obama administration raised the CAFE standards, requiring automakers to raise the average fuel efficiency of their fleets to 35.5 MPG by 2016. This past weekend, there were reports that the administration was considering changing the CAFE standards up to 56.2 MPG for the 2017 to 2025 period. Studies have estimated that the increase in these standards will add between $2100 and $2600 to the cost of a new vehicle, on average. Government agencies (EPA & NHTSA) estimate the increase will also cost 5000 jobs in 2012 alone, and will depress industry sales by approximately 58,000 vehicles. The administration acknowledges that there will likely be a cost in human life. Small cars generally don't fare as well in crashes (thank God I drive a big, gas-guzzling SUV), and the agency estimates 1100 additional "weight-related" auto deaths from 2012 to 2016 with an estimated net financial impact of these deaths to be $15B in losses.

And now to come down from the general to the particular, regarding my own view of the evolution of the 4Runner. I have owned a third, fourth and fifth generation 4Runner. Over the years, and through several hundred thousand miles, I have noticed that the 4Runners have lost their substantial nature and have become somewhat flimsy. While I have no facts or figures to bring to this part of the discussion, I feel that the 4Runner is not the truck it once was. My current 5th generation SR5 already has several small dents and dings. I don't remember anything hitting the thin skin, but nevertheless it looks like someone has been shooting at it with a BB gun or has been leaning on it (although the hight and angles wouldn't work for someone to have actually leaned on it and dented it). In my third generation, I accidentally bumped a few trees or walls or parked cars. There was never any bends or dents. Where the earlier generations felt solid, my new 2010 feels like it was made of cheap, light plastic. Don't get me wrong, I love every 4Runner I have owned or own and I wouldn't own anything else. Has anyone else noticed this change? What does everyone think of the direction this truck is heading?

 

[KCcarguy]

Even Between the 4th and 5th generation the sheet metal definitely seems a bit "flimsy".....especially the hood and doors. The reflections on my black sr-5 make this really noticeable. Driving down the road I can see the hood flex in the wind etc.

I think this is part of an effort to lighten the vehicle by using thinner metal in certain areas to save weight. It might lead to a less substantial feel in the new 4runner compared to the 3rd generation in-particular; but I don't think the 5th gen. is fragile by an means.

Difference in construction might not be completely due to CAFE standards. It is pretty commonly accepted that Toyota over-built their cars in the 80's-90's and did some re-strategizing with newer products. Toyota trucks across-the-board (even Land Cruisers have the same "flimsy-ness" you're talking about) are not the tanks they used to be, but they can still take about anything you can throw at them and still keep running and looking great.

There were similar discussions among Tacoma enthusiasts when the 2nd gen models came out in 2005 (I bought one). The first gen. Tacomas, without a doubt have a sturdier feel, but my 2005 Taco ran flawlessly for 6years/ 107k miles and I beat the crap out of it.

I guess the point is that because of both political and economic forces, the good-old-days of Toyotas being built like bank-vaults are over; but they still build a great product. Besides, what really matters with a body-on-frame truck is what's underneath and I'd like to think Toyota still builds their trucks the same where it counts.
:cheers:

 

[jakehere]

I have also owned a 2nd, 4th and 5th Gen 4R's and I agree with the "cheapness" on a few things on the 5th.

I would venture to say that the 5th gen 4R's "cost cutting" has a lot more to do with the Yen vs the USD than it does CAFE. The 4R at 17/23 MPG does nothing to help Toyota's CAFE average, quite the opposite. If it got 16/22 and had thicker sheet metal it would still be insignificant to their overall CAFE picture.

What has happened is that the US dollar has become so weak in the last 10 years essentially what we're buying today for $32,000 is equivalent to $22,000 10 years ago. Toyota had no choice but to decontent the vehicle to meet the "starting at $32,000" price point. They have more room to play around with their vehicles that are made in the US, but Toyota's Japanese manufactured vehicles are tough for them to keep pricing in line with US consumer's expectations.

With the continued weakness in the US dollar, I would bet that the 6th gen 4R will be discontinued, made in the US, or have a higher base MSRP and we'll be talking about how cheap it feels vs. the 5th gen. I would put my money on the last option.

I remember I paid invoice, about $25K, in 2003 for my low-optioned SR5 4th gen. And I paid $500 below invoice $29K for my equivalent 2011 5th gen. Yes it feels cheaper in some regards but for only $4K more for a newer, safer, better vehicle 8 years later it's a steal.

Maybe these really are "the good old days" and in 5 years we'll be complaining that "they don't make em like they used to in 2011.."

 

[1engineer]

This is a fact of life for all vehicles. You speak of Toyota in particular but almost every manufacturer has done this. Fact is there is very little weight difference between today's and yesterday's vehicles even though they feel "thinner". In reality the weight was "traded" from body panels, frames and suspension components to airbags, crumple zones and internal cross bracing for side impact protection. If anything, today's vehicles weigh more than their counterparts from 20 years ago. Are today's vehicles safer? Every number says they are. Are they more dependable? Again the numbers say yes. Are they as "tough" as before on the outside? Nope not at all. They just moved stuff around.

 

[Jtraskell]

This is a fact of life for all vehicles. You speak of Toyota in particular but almost every manufacturer has done this. Fact is there is very little weight difference between today's and yesterday's vehicles even though they feel "thinner". In reality the weight was "traded" from body panels, frames and suspension components to airbags, crumple zones and internal cross bracing for side impact protection. If anything, today's vehicles weigh more than their counterparts from 20 years ago. Are today's vehicles safer? Every number says they are. Are they more dependable? Again the numbers say yes. Are they as "tough" as before on the outside? Nope not at all. They just moved stuff around.

Notwithstanding all the correct statements above, what I have noticed is that the 5th Gen is about 15 to 25 % larger then the previous generation 4 runners, and I may be wrong, but the overall weight is about the same. Now, couple this with better overall MPG are we not better off or?

 

[Muddy Duck]

You all make excellent points, which was the point of my original post, to encourage some discussion. Don't get me wrong, I love my 5th generation. The technological advances that I've seen from my 3rd generation through my 4th generation and to my 5th generation have been amazing. I realize that my 2010 SR5 is safer, significantly more efficient, and more powerful.

Thanks for the input, especially for showing me alternative explanations to the issue.

 

[Ramzey28]

You all make excellent points, which was the point of my original post, to encourage some discussion. Don't get me wrong, I love my 5th generation. The technological advances that I've seen from my 3rd generation through my 4th generation and to my 5th generation have been amazing. I realize that my 2010 SR5 is safer, significantly more efficient, and more powerful.

Thanks for the input, especially for showing me alternative explanations to the issue.

I haven't owned a Toyota since 94, but I remember the doors to my pickup feeling thin and tinny (sp)....when I first drove the 4 runner I kinda laughed because I forgot that and realized it hadn't changed much....toyo thing I guess. Not saying it's cheap just has a certain feel or sound due to the metal ( ie ddors and such) . My biggest dislike is the brakes then I would say tires and shocks. I can deal with the slacking feel of the engine because it can get up and go. I don't like the delay from reverse to drive (even with a complete stop)....way to long...engine basically holds up. I have had about 25 new cars from the 90s to today from most of the manufacturers. Once I get my 5100s and tires I'll feel better, but cant get rid of those damn brakes....:gun5:

 

[Muddy Duck]

Jenkins: Overcaffeinated CAFE - WSJ.com

Check this out. Relevant article in the Wall Street Journal.

 

[JohnJerk]

Have owned an 04 GX470 andf 06 Taco. If you looked at the taco tailgate it would dimple/dent/scratch. Had a woman smash her door into the GX when I was in it; jumped out to kill her and couldn't find any evidence she hit it. Those vehicles had very similar gas mileage numbers despite the tank build V8 vs tinny V6. Not sure what this adds other than I think the tinny 4R and taco are cost savings rather than CAFE or anything else.

And there is nothing more cheap and tinny than the doors plastic cloth on my brother's 86 taco; not sure how people can construe the evolution of these vehicles as a downgrade? 3rd gen may have been a sweet spot for solid feeling 4R, but would have to drive one again to truly say. But would never want that truck over the 5th with backup camera, more air bags, more space, more HP, better MPG, atrac, blah blah!

 

[codyaustin5]

I would agree with statements above. I have owned every generation 4Runner(I consider my '84 truck the same as the 1st gen) and I am most impressed with my 84 truck and 2nd gen. Sure the safety things and today's conveniences are better but overall quality/fit/finish are much better in those two. Ironically the truck was my first ride and I got the 2nd gen in college. Drove them like I didn't care about them and they took everything like a champ. The only thing I didn't like in them was the power.

I liked how I could sit in engine bay of my 84 and name everything in it and fix anything easily. I sold it with it 240k miles for 3k and I wish I still had it. Solid front axle, no a/c, no power steering or windows and I loved it! With 32's on it the ground clearance was ridiculous and climbed anywhere I took it.

My '90 runner was a beast and went everywhere finally had a/c and a little more power. Loved driving it and was solid. Sold it when I graduated college with 160k.

My '99 runner highlander edition was sweet. it looked sick had a high stance more power and gave the impression of a bad ass suv. Probably best built engine toyota has ever made. Loved it and sold it with 130k.

'06 V8 sport was another sweet ride mostly the V8 is what made it great.

'10 runner sweet looks and great stance but uncomfortable seats and not as solid as previous editions. Looks remind me of 3rd gen. I will always buy 4runners but I wish I could have made some decisions on what was important on the 5gen...definitely not my favorite.

my 2 cents for what its worth....