Calling you out! Yes, you BigFish, Blcktpgsr, Ripcord, Tmaxx and the like!

[econhonda]

What exactly is "the wealth re-distribution policy" in this country? Are they re-distributing the wealth somewhere and I missed it?

My initial comment referred to the wealth redistribution "philosophy", not necessarily the "policy", but if you really want me to respond, so be it.

1- The federal income tax is "progressive" in that it takes higher incomes at a higher rate than lower incomes. By definition this is redistributive.

A "Summary of Federal Individual Income Tax Data for the year 2005" (the most recent data available from the Internal Revenue Service reveal that:

Top 1% earned 21.20% of all incomes reported, but paid 39.38% of all income taxes.

The top 5% earned 37.75% of all incomes, but paid 59.67% of all income taxes.

The top 25% earned 67.52% of all incomes, but paid 85.99% of all income taxes.

The top 50% earned 87.17% of all incomes, but paid 96.93% of all income taxes.

Source: Internal Revenue Service (as reported on The Tax Foundation - Educating Taxpayers Since 1937)

That's just one example of a current policy in place that I would consider redistributive. However, I was referring to the more general entitlement issue that seems to be growing in this country, and the mentality that rich people "owe" those who are not, something. Technically, I would probably even consider a flat tax system somewhat redistributive. It's the most practical solution, but if ultimate justice were achieved, we'd all have a $236,666 bill each year to live in this wonderful country. Yes, that's what it would cost if every person in the workforce (~150 million) paid an equal share of the 2010 federal expenditures (~$3.55 Trillion). That, technically, would not be redistributive.

Whoof, this was all supposed to be a joke.

 

[awdjunkies]

At least you mother effers have a 4runner to brag/laugh at/ talk about. I sold mine a few years ago and want to get back into another one but the wife says get something else. :bash:

 

[BrianSD_42]

Those are interesting points. The reason I am comfortable with the progressive tax vs. flat tax is pretty simple.

I believe that we all need to give into the pot to make a society worth living in. I think that group sacrifice means that everyone needs to put into that pot, especially those who have the most. I pay my taxes without complaining. Yes, I wish they were better spent but that does not mean that I think that we need to go after the poor to close our deficit.

Paying taxes is the least you can do when the country is struggling. It is patriotic. I am a military veteran; I served in Operation Iraqi Freedom and went on 2 deployments over 6 years. We are the 1%, the rest of you are the 99% who haven't served and kids will not serve.

My fellow soldiers and sailors serving overseas do not make very much money. In fact many military families barely live above the poverty line and are unable to send their kids to decent colleges. It is upsetting to me that our soldiers in the Middle East are risking their lives everyday, while back home, many supposed "patriots" who have never served and never will, are complaining about how un-American it is to have taxes.

The fact is flat tax would raise rates on the lowest income Americans. I think it is wrong to do that at a time where there are 40 million American's living on food stamps (majority are children) and the GAP between the rich and poor has never been greater. The rich are richer than ever and the poor are poorer than ever.


I understand if you don't want to take my word for it but you should listen to this guy. He is the 3rd richest American and he is saying the exact same thing. He exposes what many Americans don't realize and that is that wealth and income are not the same thing.



WARREN BUFFETT - The Oracle of Omaha - 8/14/2011

Stop Coddling the Super Rich

Op-Ed by Warren Buffet - Stop Coddling the Super Rich



snippet:

Warren Buffet - 8/14/2011

OUR leaders have asked for “shared sacrifice.” But when they did the asking, they spared me. I checked with my mega-rich friends to learn what pain they were expecting. They, too, were left untouched.

While the poor and middle class fight for us in Afghanistan, and while most Americans struggle to make ends meet, we mega-rich continue to get our extraordinary tax breaks. Some of us are investment managers who earn billions from our daily labors but are allowed to classify our income as “carried interest,” thereby getting a bargain 15 percent tax rate. Others own stock index futures for 10 minutes and have 60 percent of their gain taxed at 15 percent, as if they’d been long-term investors.

These and other blessings are showered upon us by legislators in Washington who feel compelled to protect us, much as if we were spotted owls or some other endangered species. It’s nice to have friends in high places.

Last year my federal tax bill — the income tax I paid, as well as payroll taxes paid by me and on my behalf — was $6,938,744. That sounds like a lot of money. But what I paid was only 17.4 percent of my taxable income — and that’s actually a lower percentage than was paid by any of the other 20 people in our office. Their tax burdens ranged from 33 percent to 41 percent and averaged 36 percent.

If you make money with money, as some of my super-rich friends do, your percentage may be a bit lower than mine. But if you earn money from a job, your percentage will surely exceed mine — most likely by a lot.

(click link to read second half)

Op-Ed by Warren Buffet - Stop Coddling the Super Rich



Lastly, the reason why your comment (everyone is friends here) caught my eye is because my uncle recently said the same "tea-partier" talking point, that there is wealth distribution going on. He believes as many do that Obama is redistributing the wealth. I am NO fan of Obama and his policies to date but I am pretty convinced there is no wealth distribution going on right now. At least none that is making it easier for working families like our Soldiers and Sailors.


:frog:

 

[econhonda]

I can definitely respect that opinion, and at one time I would have written something similar. However, I think we are far too progressive when half of the country doesn't pay a federal income tax. It's tough to argue that 50% of the wealthiest country in the world is in poverty. If so, I think it might be more worthwhile to define what poverty is. Poverty is NOT the following:

Having enough money for an iphone, but not enough to put your kid through Harvard

Having enough money for an HDTV and cable, but not for health insurance

Having enough money for a Land Rover Lease, but not for a sufficient retirement fund

You get my point, I'm sure. Don't get me wrong, there are folks out there who are really hurting, and not because of dumb consumer decisions. But, one must admit that the person who buys a home on an interest only mortgage, leases some new car, and has the new iphone doesn't really deserve a complete exemption from a federal tax liability, in my opinion. Your reasoning for not having a flat tax system is exactly the reason why I think we should have one. If you make $20K a year, you only pay out what is proportionate to what you earned. If you earn $20M a you'll obviously be cutting a much bigger check. Everyone is vested. Everyone contributes. Everyone benefits.

 

[josh.bunch]

i can definitely respect that opinion, and at one time i would have written something similar. However, i think we are far too progressive when half of the country doesn't pay a federal income tax. It's tough to argue that 50% of the wealthiest country in the world is in poverty. If so, i think it might be more worthwhile to define what poverty is. Poverty is not the following:

Having enough money for an iphone, but not enough to put your kid through harvard

having enough money for an hdtv and cable, but not for health insurance

having enough money for a land rover lease, but not for a sufficient retirement fund

you get my point, i'm sure. Don't get me wrong, there are folks out there who are really hurting, and not because of dumb consumer decisions. But, one must admit that the person who buys a home on an interest only mortgage, leases some new car, and has the new iphone doesn't really deserve a complete exemption from a federal tax liability, in my opinion. Your reasoning for not having a flat tax system is exactly the reason why i think we should have one. If you make $20k a year, you only pay out what is proportionate to what you earned. If you earn $20m a you'll obviously be cutting a much bigger check. Everyone is vested. Everyone contributes. Everyone benefits.

preach!!! : )

 

[BrianSD_42]

I dont think there are very many poor people with new land rovers and iphones. It also doesn't make much sense to compare paying taxes to owning a $199 iphone.

my felow soldiers and sailors can barely afford to send their kids to state schools, let alone private schools. to imply that a military (or any other) family with 2 kids making < $50,000 including BAH is actually pretty well off just because the kids have an xbox is czrazy to me. its only "pretty well off" compared to living in a ghetto or starving in Africa.

there are clearly ideological differences, that is the way of the world. But in this case I disagree with your point and I agree with Warren Buffett (link above).

I further kindly ask that you point out how Buffett is wrong. Dont hesitate to critisize The Oracle directly. I think he is right and he would know better than anyone I have ever met because he is the man when it comes to making money and being a capitalist.


one of my favoriye quotes is by Churchill. "any man under the age of 25 who is not a progressive is a coward and any man over 25 who is not a conservative is a fool."


> anyways I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

 

[econhonda]

So, normally I wouldn't respond, but I do appreciate your perspective, and find this conversation particularly interesting. I'm not exactly sure how to explain myself though. You see, I'm not taking issue with Buffet's piece at all. In fact, I believe I'm saying the same thing. He takes issue with the fact that his tax rate was much lower than those who work with him in his office, yet he made a far greater amount of money than they did. He's asking for the rich to be held to the same standards of everyone else. I didn't get the impression that he was asking for the rich to bear a greater share of the burden than others. In this case, a flat tax system would level the rate across all income levels. The rich would pay their share, just like low income earners. Also, I would like to say that, obviously, Buffet knows the financial markets pretty well, but that doesn't mean he's an expert on the US economy. Relying on his advice to solve today's economic problems would be like relying on a really good mechanic to design the 6th gen 4runner.

As for the poverty issue, I am somewhat confused. You mention that a sailor/soldier earning roughly $50K/year is barely able to put their kid through state school let alone private school. My response to this situation might seem rude so brace yourself. There are so many avenues one can take to get through school, whether private or state. Scholarships, federal grants, financial aid, or finding a good-old-fashion job are just a few. I took 30 credit hours of college classes as concurrent enrollment during my junior and senior years of high school. I graduated high school basically as a sophomore. This is highly subsidized in many states, and cost me very little. I went to my first year of college on a full ride golf scholarship. After serving a volunteer 24 month mission for my church, I completed my final two years of undergrad working 32 hours/week, taking no less than 16 credit hours each semester (including summer) all while maintaining a 3.78 GPA and finding, dating, and marrying my amazing wife. I did this all on my own. I received no financial aid of any kind (scholarship/financial aid/parental contributions) Since when do we think it's a right to go to college for cheap? It's not. College is worth the effort.

Also, I have the utmost respect for those who serve our country in any of the armed forces, but people who enter into the service know that it's not going to be the most lucrative field in the world. It will provide for your needs and earn you an unmatched level of respect and gratitude by those you serve, but if money is what you want, choose something else. This is a small example of what is going on all around us. We want to be able to choose what we want and the consequence associated with it.

In closing, I'd like to comment on the fact that income is not the same as wealth. I am 26 years old, have 2 kids and a wife. I am by no means wealthy, but I am definitely not poor. I am a homeowner with no other debt besides my modest mortgage, and have substantial amount of money in savings right now. Also, I am the sole provider for our household, and believe me, I'm not raking it in. I do not feel like I'm in poverty, but I suppose some would think that I am. I don't have cable. No iphone. Both of my cars have more than 100K miles. Consider this my own op-ed. Stop coddling the "not so poor". We can take some of the responsibility too. Paying a flat tax would surely mean that my tax liability would go up, but I would vote for it right now.

 

[BrianSD_42]

not rude to me no worries. I just wanted to provide balance to your comments. I don't normally comment about politics or economicson the internet because people are often crazy and rude, you are neither.

Warren Buffett actually calls for twomajor tax hikes in his posting last Sunday. He calls for a increase on taxes for every household making more than $1 Million and another for the top 1% earners. He also calls on closing the loopholes and raising the capitol gains tax so that trading money is taxed the same as work.

you are basically calling on raising taxes on yourself which I find interesting. I too make a pretty good living. I work in the tech industry, I am 29, unmarried and recently graduated with my BS as an engineer in a very high growth field, Data Storage.

But even if I make $100,000 which I dont, that is pennies next to the shills in the banking and housing industry who produce nothing, trade money all day and pay even lower taxes.

Btw, I dont mean to imply that $50k means anyone is poor. it is just that where I live in southern california you cannot easily provide for a family of 4 on that salary because home prices are so inflated.

finally, yes I think college would be free and not for profit. Germany does this and their strong public higher education has produced some of the greatest engineers in the euro zone. as long as college is out of reach to some based on income levels the US will not be able to compete because we won't educate all of our greatest minds. I am not the first person to think this, it can be dated ask the way back Confusious. I don't think every major should be free because there are a lot of BS majors out there and a lot of lazy ass students cruising through school -you know who you are (sorry but needed to be said)

ecoHonda, you seem like a good guy and it is a testimate to the t4r community that we can have a civil conversation.

 

[NickF]

Those are interesting points. The reason I am comfortable with the progressive tax vs. flat tax is pretty simple.

I believe that we all need to give into the pot to make a society worth living in. I think that group sacrifice means that everyone needs to put into that pot, especially those who have the most. I pay my taxes without complaining. Yes, I wish they were better spent but that does not mean that I think that we need to go after the poor to close our deficit.

Paying taxes is the least you can do when the country is struggling. It is patriotic. I am a military veteran; I served in Operation Iraqi Freedom and went on 2 deployments over 6 years. We are the 1%, the rest of you are the 99% who haven't served and kids will not serve.

My fellow soldiers and sailors serving overseas do not make very much money. In fact many military families barely live above the poverty line and are unable to send their kids to decent colleges. It is upsetting to me that our soldiers in the Middle East are risking their lives everyday, while back home, many supposed "patriots" who have never served and never will, are complaining about how un-American it is to have taxes.

The fact is flat tax would raise rates on the lowest income Americans. I think it is wrong to do that at a time where there are 40 million American's living on food stamps (majority are children) and the GAP between the rich and poor has never been greater. The rich are richer than ever and the poor are poorer than ever.


I understand if you don't want to take my word for it but you should listen to this guy. He is the 3rd richest American and he is saying the exact same thing. He exposes what many Americans don't realize and that is that wealth and income are not the same thing.



WARREN BUFFETT - The Oracle of Omaha - 8/14/2011

Stop Coddling the Super Rich

Op-Ed by Warren Buffet - Stop Coddling the Super Rich



snippet:



Op-Ed by Warren Buffet - Stop Coddling the Super Rich



Lastly, the reason why your comment (everyone is friends here) caught my eye is because my uncle recently said the same "tea-partier" talking point, that there is wealth distribution going on. He believes as many do that Obama is redistributing the wealth. I am NO fan of Obama and his policies to date but I am pretty convinced there is no wealth distribution going on right now. At least none that is making it easier for working families like our Soldiers and Sailors.


:frog:

First off Hi everone I miss you all and my Runner

To your first point about it being patriotic to pay taxes is a bit absurd. We pay taxes because we are forced to. They are compulsory. If you dont pay them eventually the IRS will beat down the door of your home and take everything you own from you and throw you in jail. So, no sir I submit paying taxes is anything more than a necessary action at the very least. If you see it as a patriotic then that is your opinion. However I just don't understand how its any different than me coming to your door with a ski mask and a 9mm and asking you to give me all your oney so that I could spend it in your name for the good of the community. IN fact you'd probably laugh me off your porch.
Back to the military discussion, I wholly agree with you. My best friend and another good friend of mine are both in the military. Ones in the Marines and the other in the Army and both have been in combat situations over the past 2 years in Afghanistan. I get paid roughly $800 every two weeks. I sit at a desk all day on the computer. They get paid roughly $900 every two weeks and get shot at. I mean certainly they have no expenditures but that hardly makes it justifiable. I would submit that Military pay and benefits should increase immensely over the next 5 or 10 years.
A flat tax would not have to raise taxes on the poor if federal expenditures did not skyrocket year after year. Since the Bush administration the GAP between income and expenditures have widen substantially, and Obama has stepped on the accelerator even faster

and the debt of the US is rising constantly higher and insanely faster rates.

Steve Forbes who has done research on this for years has said even a 17% payroll tax is attainable. The $8,501 – $34,500 bracket is already paying a 15% income tax. So to assert that somehow the poor could not afford a 2% increase (P.S. I pay rent, and have a car payment, basic health insurance, a cell phone and manage to feed myself without being on food stamps and I'm in this bracket) in their taxes is rather absurd. 2% on 25,000 is $500-- and over the course of 52 weeks in a year that brings us to $10.41 a week. Funny, I guess I can't afford that big mac this week in order to make everybody have an equal share in the tax burden. Not to mention that that rich guy making $250,000 will still be paying more in taxes than I make in an entire year (He'll be paying $42,500 in taxes). So no, a progressive income tax is NOT fair and would NOT drive the poor into the streets.

I dont care what Warren Buffet preaches about on TV. If he truly wished to give MORE of his money away to the government he can do just that at any moment in his life.
Gifts to the United States Government: Questions and Answers: Financial Management Service
Frankly, he's simply making a political move, rather one of principal. Actiuons speak louder than words.

There's no wealth redistribution? Section 8 housing, food stamps, medicare/medicade, SOCIAL SECURITY (The BiGGEST ponzi scheme ever constructed). Quite frankly, sir, your facts are incorrect. There IS wealth redistribution going on.

 

[quicksilvr]

Awesome original post econhonda. Thoroughly enjoyed, and I too chuckled at the disabled 2wd comment.


This conversation is going great, so I'm not going to muddy it up with my muddy thoughts. I simply want to repost this one chart, and say a a few words about it.

^This is the problem. I was having a conversation with my boss yesterday (he owns a couple successful small businesses) and we were talking about how ridiculous it is that an administration can say they cut the budget by 2 trillion, when what they really did is:

Reduce the "projected" spending by 2 trillion over 10 years, based on false statistics. For one, they assumed GDP would grow at 8% for the next 10 years. ROFL! It's never come close, not even in the Reagan era.

Basically, the American people are getting told that the administration cut 2 trillion. Most people think: good job, we actually saved 2 trillion dollars. Reality: it's like going to buy a car, and you have $20k to spend. You cannot afford to spend a dollar over $20k. However, you see a $40k car that is on sale for $30k. So you buy the $30k car, drive home, and tell you wife you saved $10k! When in reality, you saved nothing....you spent more than you should have in the first place. Saving $10k would have meant buying a $10k car.

Anyway, I could probably rant for days about the crazy and unconstitutional things our Federal government does, and has done since FDR was in office. But I won't, because it's not worth it.


Everybody, vote smart next fall! Smaller government, more freedom.

 

[NickF]

Awesome original post econhonda. Thoroughly enjoyed, and I too chuckled at the disabled 2wd comment.


This conversation is going great, so I'm not going to muddy it up with my muddy thoughts. I simply want to repost this one chart, and say a a few words about it.

^This is the problem. I was having a conversation with my boss yesterday (he owns a couple successful small businesses) and we were talking about how ridiculous it is that an administration can say they cut the budget by 2 trillion, when what they really did is:

Reduce the "projected" spending by 2 trillion over 10 years, based on false statistics. For one, they assumed GDP would grow at 8% for the next 10 years. ROFL! It's never come close, not even in the Reagan era.

Basically, the American people are getting told that the administration cut 2 trillion. Most people think: good job, we actually saved 2 trillion dollars. Reality: it's like going to buy a car, and you have $20k to spend. You cannot afford to spend a dollar over $20k. However, you see a $40k car that is on sale for $30k. So you buy the $30k car, drive home, and tell you wife you saved $10k! When in reality, you saved nothing....you spent more than you should have in the first place. Saving $10k would have meant buying a $10k car.

Anyway, I could probably rant for days about the crazy and unconstitutional things our Federal government does, and has done since FDR was in office. But I won't, because it's not worth it.


Everybody, vote smart next fall! Smaller government, more freedom.

You know, I always laugh when I see them talking about this on TV. I think its rather hysterical that they call the "cuts" actual "cuts". As much as I would like to see actual cuts ion the future-- how about we FREEZE the budget now until we can actually get some politically viable that don't get demagouged by either side.

There is a conversation to be had about true cuts, however. There is no reason to have troops stationed in over 130 countries in 700 bases around the world when in the past 5 years we have dug ourselves over 5 trillion dollars further into debt. Similarly, there is no reason that we cannot have honest reform for social security which is beyond broken. There is also no reason that ObamaCare should not be repealed and a truly free market approach (unlike our current bull**** system of corporate special treatment) be implemented. Not to mention we could cut most of the department of agriculture and the department of education which has undermined education in this country.

But again even if we just FROZE spending levels as they are currently, the budget would balance itself eventually.

 

[quicksilvr]

Love the signature NickF. I'm totally not a bumper sticker person...but I have the black R(LOVE)ution sticker on my black car, and it looks damn good for a bumper sticker. lol

 

[brian2sun]

WARREN BUFFETT - The Oracle of Omaha - 8/14/2011

Stop Coddling the Super Rich

Op-Ed by Warren Buffet - Stop Coddling the Super Rich



snippet:



Op-Ed by Warren Buffet - Stop Coddling the Super Rich

As far as Buffets go, I prefer Jimmy to Warren any day. And Golden Corral is a close 2nd.

 

[NickF]

Love the signature NickF. I'm totally not a bumper sticker person...but I have the black R(LOVE)ution sticker on my black car, and it looks damn good for a bumper sticker. lol

Yeah I need to get a vinyl... I refuse to put a bumper sticker on my tC. I had a nice one on the runner...but I also had the notorious rotting bumper syndrome so it covered teh rust spots nicely