Carbon Buildup?

[Herd72]

I posted about this before. When I start my truck (2003 4Runner - V8) after it has been sitting for a long time particularly overnight it makes a very loud valve clatter like noise almost like it had no oil. I have changed the oil at every interval and use Mobil One - I have a Toyota filter on there. After I drive about 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile it runs smooth as can be. Yesterday the noise was so loud my wife could hear it inside the house! I took it to Toyota and left it over night so they could start it cold. They claim they did not hear anything but said this is a common problem caused by carbon buildup on the top of the pistons from regular fuel and after the car warms up it burns off the carbon and all is OK. This just doesn't ring true to me somehow! I can not drive it to the dealer when it is making the noise because as I said if i drive it it quits. I am planning a summer trip in a few weeks and don't want to make it worse. I have always used regular (Chevron or Exxon) with no problems. What do you guys think?
Jim

 

[greasefingers]

I have run regular fuel for the last 38K miles on my 2003 with the V8. Regular fuel or 87-octane grade is specified in our Owners manual. The only time I use 89-octane is when I load her up, including a cargo box on the roof, to go on a trip with my family (twice a year and 400 miles one way). I highly doubt that regular fuel produces more carbon than any other grade; unless you hear the engine pinging. It sure sounds like the dealer is providing a

 

[Boaz]

I posted about this before. When I start my truck (2003 4Runner - V8) after it has been sitting for a long time particularly overnight it makes a very loud valve clatter like noise almost like it had no oil. I have changed the oil at every interval and use Mobil One - I have a Toyota filter on there. After I drive about 1/4 mile to 1/2 mile it runs smooth as can be. Yesterday the noise was so loud my wife could hear it inside the house! I took it to Toyota and left it over night so they could start it cold. They claim they did not hear anything but said this is a common problem caused by carbon buildup on the top of the pistons from regular fuel and after the car warms up it burns off the carbon and all is OK. This just doesn't ring true to me somehow! I can not drive it to the dealer when it is making the noise because as I said if i drive it it quits. I am planning a summer trip in a few weeks and don't want to make it worse. I have always used regular (Chevron or Exxon) with no problems. What do you guys think?
Jim

Have you tried using another brand of oil? My V-6 had a small clatter much like you described, it started this winter. I noticed it when it had sat for more that 1 day or so. I no longer use mobil1 now, I havnet heard the noise in awhile. I thought it was a normal cold start noise.
1. I would recommend a oil analysis, to see if in fact something is not right. If something is wearing out prematurely in your engine an oil anaylsis would tell you what it is or at least get you pointed in the right direction.

2. That dealer is full of shit.

Just my 2 cents bro. Hope it helps

 

[DaveS]

Have you got a video camera? Maybe its time to make a short film one morning to prove the noise exists (you could post it here also if you have a digital camcorder).

 

[Cliff s]

First: The carbon story is pure BS.

I would change the oil filter to see if that helps.
There is a rubber flap in the filter that keeps the
oil from draining back into the pan when the motor
is stopped. The oil pump would then have to fill the filter
first to have any oil pressure.

If that dosen't cure the problem, then other measures
will have to be taken.

Cliff s

 

[Herd72]

Thanks for the suggestions

I have changed both the oil and the filter. I almost suspect a tranny thing because it is loudest when I first put it into gear. But if I just let it run for a few minutes in park and then drive off, there is no noise. I thought the carbon thing was dealer talk for "we don't know and we don't care!"

JIM

 

[Northof49]

My 03 used to do that periodically when cold as well......I would bet money it's not the transmission. It sounds like valve train to me, and this would make sense, as the valve train is the last engine part to receive oil as the engine warms up.

As for the carbon build up story.....I think short trips and/or low load conditions would contribute much more to carbon buildup problems than the type of fuel used....87 should be just fine. Take it for a longer drive and floor it a lot right before you put it to rest one night and see what it sounds like in the morning.....Other solutions to carbon buildup (if that's the problem) would be to run an injector cleaner through it....Chevron's Techron concentrate is really good stuff.

If that's not the problem, as others are suggesting, maybe try a different type of oil.

 

[p53mustang]

carbon buildup crap

I am now currently in dispute with toyota. Depending on how it goes I think this will be my last toyota purchase. Own 02 Sienna xle with 39k miles in it. wife drives it regularly but I drive it on Sundays when we go out just to check and see if everything is ok. Last march had that clatter noise you're talking about except when it's in drive especially before it shifts it will only go away when the engine gets heated up.First they didn't hear it. so I left the van at the stealership and drove it with the tech the next day. He said piston slap (which is what I was thinking too) he then said he'll call toyota first.and they will wait for whatever toyota would advised them to do. two weeks later (me calling them everyday , i even emailed toyota but I was just referred back to the stealership and said the manager will call me no later than a certain date, of course the manager never called ) the advisor said toyota told them to bring the car in for more testing. At first he said it was spark knock , so I said i'm running it on premium all the time. He then said oh but we'll still checking it. He then next day calls again and said oh we finally diagnosed it it's a carbon build up particularly bad in cylinder #3 and the only fix is top head clean up worth $200 ( I knew this is a bunch of bull, but I pretended like I don't know much about cars and engines) I then asked if the warranty will cover he said no cause it's not a failed part ( I almost fell off my chair cause for a 4 stroke engine to have this bad carbon build up worse than 2 stroke threre's no part failure cause it's an engine failure) So I asked then what if after the top head clean up I still have the same problem he said it will fix it, I asked if they have seen this kind of problem before he said no cause if we did it would not have taken them this long to diagnosed it, so I said then how sure are you this will fix it. he said he can't guarantee it but they do warranty their work for a year irregardless of mileage. so i went on ahead and did cause I knew if i didn't and the engine fails toyota won't cover it cause they'll just say it fails because i never got the carbon build up cleaned up. and guess what well i still have the problem so i then talked to the same advisor and said i still have the problem. now this time i started talking like i really know about cars. I asked him first if the diagnosis is from toyota tech line or his technician he said both i then asked if they check for compression pressure in the cylinders he said yes but it's not on paper. I then told him that it's a piston slap i explained that when the engine is cold the the metal is contracted so the clearance in the cylinder is more than the specifications meaning the piston ring does not seal in the bore real good thereby allowing more oil to get on top of the piston and because there is more oil getting burned than it's supposed to carbon builds up. the clatter is due to the piston slapping inside the bore and it goes away when the engine gets heated up because the metal expands when heated and therefore it makes the piston and it's ring fit the bore so it doesn't slap and less oil gets burn that's why the carbon builup I then also told him if this is your fix then that means i'll have to come here every 3 years of less. He said toyota told them it's not piston slap i then told him of course toyota would say no it's not because the problem is still under powertrain warranty and since toyota already made their money on me they wouldn't wanna spend at least 2k replacing the cylinder block which is the only fix for this problem. I even made a comment that I bet if the engine is no longer under warranty they wouldn't have a problem replacing the engine block at my expense. he then referred me to his manager who said he'll have a tech from toyota come to the dealer and diagnosed my van. of course this after i said my wife drives it to work and unfortunately part of her job is a well baby visit on indigent kids born out of pooor parents and it takes her into some real bad neighborhood, i said if this van fails in bad area and something happens to my wife somebody is gonna be really held accountable for that.
Needless to say I dropped off my van today so the tech from toyota can look at it tomorrow. this has been going on for two months now.
Now my 4runner which is only 7mos. old has a rattling sunroof and some rattles on front passenger door and a creaking drivers seat man I am really getting furious now . I emailed toyota about this of course they just emailed me back with a case number and referred me back to the stealership. i've had numerous toyotas before but i can't remember them being this bad. my uncle who has been running on toyotas since as far as i could remember then to lexus since they first started coming out just dumped it a couple months ago and switched to acura says he's not happy with the service him and his son who drives IS300 both. now they are heckling me for staying with toyota. huuuummhhhhhhh.
sorry guys if this is tooo long. I very seldong post so maybe this should make up for that.

 

[Offroader]

Same thing happened to me after a dealer oil change. After two weeks, one morning I decided to chech thoroughly.

You know what was making that noise?

One unfastened air filter strap!!!!!!!

It seems the dealer forgot to fasten one of the straps after cleaning the air filter element. ( I live in a third world country with a lot of dust, so we change air filters every 20k km and clean it with compressed air every oil change, every 5k km / 3k miles).

 

[Northof49]

Re: carbon buildup crap

Now my 4runner which is only 7mos. old has a rattling sunroof and some rattles on front passenger door and a creaking drivers seat man I am really getting furious now . I emailed toyota about this of course they just emailed me back with a case number and referred me back to the stealership. i've had numerous toyotas before but i can't remember them being this bad. my uncle who has been running on toyotas since as far as i could remember then to lexus since they first started coming out just dumped it a couple months ago and switched to acura says he's not happy with the service him and his son who drives IS300 both. now they are heckling me for staying with toyota. huuuummhhhhhhh.
sorry guys if this is tooo long. I very seldong post so maybe this should make up for that.

Do you honestly not think that ANY manufacturer will try solving a problem by simpler means first rather than just giving everyone new long blocks? I've personally seen Toyota warranty entire engines that were in question (not failed), so they're not simply trying to screw you out of warranty.

Toyota is by no means perfect, but if you going ballistic over this, I'd hate to see what you would go through with other manufacturers.

 

[Kanab]

Had valve train noise in my 95 Landcruiser, it had the DOHC I6 engine. It had more noise if you used the big Toyota oil filter versus the new smaller filter. It didn't hurt anything, mine had 130K miles on it and I know others with the start up noise that had over 300K miles on them. If your concerned about the quality of the gas you are using check out this site it is recommended by Toyota, it is "Top Tier Fuel" www.toptiergas.com and it lists the dealers that use the top rated fuel that has the cleaners in them that keep your fuel system clean.

 

[eorange]

We had the same problem in our '95 V6 Camry. The sound got progressively worse until one morning it didn't quit and it sounded like the engine was going to blow apart. We had it towed to the dealer, and they also gave carbon buildup as the explanation. They flushed the engine and we never had a problem since. Their only recommendation was to stay away from BP gas.

I think this happened around 1997-1998.

Erik

 

[greasefingers]

Erik

I was told by my dealer to only use BP gasoline, if I wanted to fix the sulfur smell.

 

[DaveS]

I would make sure you are also using the right kind of air in your tires

 

[Northof49]

We had the same problem in our '95 V6 Camry. The sound got progressively worse until one morning it didn't quit and it sounded like the engine was going to blow apart. We had it towed to the dealer, and they also gave carbon buildup as the explanation. They flushed the engine and we never had a problem since. Their only recommendation was to stay away from BP gas.

I think this happened around 1997-1998.

Erik

Well there ya go, maybe the carbon buildup story holds some water than....

 

[boston_kevin]

At one point, BMW had reccommended to their owners the gas stations to use for their vehicles. This was based on who the stations purchased gas from and the refining quality of the gas. I know a couple from the list:

1) Shell
2) Mobil
3) Exxon
4) Texaco (if these are still around)

Primarily they reccommended these because as a franchise owner, you are required to purchase gasoline from the parent companies approved refineries, so one Shell station will have the same quality as another. Stations not on that list:

1) Cumberland Farms
2) 7-11
3) BP
4) Sunoco

Trying to find the list from BMW about this list of reccomendations.... I'll post it when I find the complete list.

 

[toybox]

4) Texaco (if these are still around)

I emailed chevron about Texaco (chevron bought the name) and this is the response:

I am looking to buy "Top Tier" gas but I do not have a chevron near me.
I do have a Texaco near me but the Texaco website does not mention "Top
Tier" gas. My question is, Is Texaco gas the same as Chevron gas?



Mr. >>>>>>>,

Thank you for your inquiry. It has been forwarded to us here at
ChevronTexaco Fuels Technical Service.

The Texaco stations in the State of Pennsylvania at this time are not
owned by ChevronTexaco and do not have gasoline with the Techron
chemistry technology. The Texaco stations in your state are owned by
Shell. You might want to contact Shell.

At present, not all Texaco stations in the United States are owned by
ChevronTexaco. The only way to tell if a Texaco station is owned by
ChevronTexaco is if they accept the ChevronTexaco credit card. By
mid-2006 Shell will no longer be able to use the Texaco name and all
Texaco stations you see anywhere in the United States will be owned
solely by ChevronTexaco.

The Chevron Texaco merger to form ChevronTexaco, when it first occurred,
disallowed ChevronTexaco from owning the Texaco stations in North
America. They, instead, continued to be owned by Shell. They did not
have Chevron gasoline and thus did not have gasoline with Techron.

As of July 1, 2004, both ChevronTexaco and Shell have the rights to the
Texaco name and ChevronTexaco has chosen to use the name in 13
mostly-southern states and the District of Columbia. The thirteen states
are Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee,
Kentucky, West Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia and
Maryland. Chevron is also currently rolling out Chevron-owned Texaco
stations in seven states in the West. They are Oregon, California,
Idaho, Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico.

This makes it confusing since some of the Texaco stations in these
states will be owned by Shell and some of them will be owned by
ChevronTexaco (until mid-2006).

Pennsylvania is not on this list, however we notice you have some
bordering states to your south that are (if you live close to that
border).

 

[toybox]

Out of all the top tier gas, I only have shell station that are anywhere near me and those are few and far between. I'm hoping more gas stations in the mid-atlantic region get "Top Tier" status.

 

[Kanab]

I was told by my dealer to only use BP gasoline, if I wanted to fix the sulfur smell.

I wouldn't listen to the dealer. here are the gas stations that meet Toyota's spec's for gasoline.

TOP TIER Gasoline Retailers:

QuikTrip
Chevron
Conoco
Phillips
76
Shell
Entec Stations
MFA Oil Company

 

[p53mustang]

Re: Re: carbon buildup crap

Do you honestly not think that ANY manufacturer will try solving a problem by simpler means first rather than just giving everyone new long blocks? I've personally seen Toyota warranty entire engines that were in question (not failed), so they're not simply trying to screw you out of warranty.

Toyota is by no means perfect, but if you going ballistic over this, I'd hate to see what you would go through with other manufacturers.

Yes, I honestly think that some manufacturer would try and cheat especially if it involves only a limitted number of people. But this is just my opinion which i'm sure a majority of people would disagree unless they are in the same situation as I am then maybe a little more will agree with me or at least will feel like it.
And no I don't expect Toyota to give me a new block, because first of all I wouldn't let their technicians just replaced the block and used same component anywhere else, eg. the crankshaft bearing which is broken in a certain way if not put in the way it was (exact position) taken out will just cause it to fail. And by the way it's not long block the 6cylinder on toyota siennas are short block. What I expect is for them to at least acknowledge the fact instead of giving me the runaround and offer me at least an extended warranty on the engine (which I've already bought up to100k miles factory warranty when I first bought the car) , but basically acknowledge the fact then we can move on. Even if it involves $200 carbon clean up every 3 years as part of maintainance, at least I know what's coming. Now , historically speaking and this is not just me making this up but from friends (master techinicians) and the tech himself who worked on the van , Toyota did recall in past, engines from Camry's and Previa's for the said problem. So maybe mine is an isolated case but only tme will tell.Besides I don't keep car no more than 5 years anyway.
I know Toyota isn't perfect but they (as I used to know ) do manufacture heck of a good cars. When they first came here in the U.S. they catered to what people want in their cars, eg. Body panels that fit flush etc. unlike the american made cars. Mr. Iaccoca at that time head of Chrysler said let them come (japanese cars) they'll never make it further than the west coast. (do not quote me on this but this is what i've read in some newspapers and car magazines)Well we all know now instead of the american car manufacturers listening or catering to what it's buyers want they wouldn't lose this much market share.
Oh and by the way don't worry about me dealing with other lousy car companies, once I don't like how they handle the situation I just don't buy anything that they make even if it's comes with 0%finance or any kind of incentives or even if they are cheapest. That's one of the reason I pay more for Toyota cause I expect a lot ,quality wise and service wise..