Caster adjustment cams question

[Mendoncyclesmith]

Sophie is on the alignment rack at my local shop. New tires, leveling kits at each end, new lower ball joints, this was the final job for this summer.

1996, 140K, a couple upstate NY winters, but it was clean and rust fre at 96K whenI bought her.

The cams that adjust caster are frozen with rust. It is ever so slightly out of spec, they're trying, but it may not move.

They assured me, toe in and everything else is fine, tires won't be impacted, etc.

The job to replace both of them, (with no rust), is 8 hours according to the book mechanics use to estimate work.

I've had minor frame rub ever since putting the current wheels on (stock steels off '04 Taco), now wearing 265/75/16 Cooper Discoverers, no idea if they'll rub too, but the All Terrain TA/KO's in the same size did on the wheels.

It was suggested when I asked last year about it, and in a or current conversation on here when I was trying to fit 32's on, to set caster to "max".

I know nothing, this is all Martian to me. :biggrin2:

I'm staring down the barrel of a ~$1200+ job with parts to replace the cams.

I like to know things are working 100%, she is not driven in the winter anymore.

Should I be budgeting to get these replaced next year "just because"?

Thinking about revisiting my OEM alloys, once blasted and powder coated, and some 32's, so the frame rub might come back, might just do wheel spacers, not sure on that approach yet. But the 2.5" leveling kit in front give me the feeling I won't have 32 fitment issues.

I mention that, as max caster might be required, hence wondering if the cam replacement is a really good idea then.

Thanks all!

 

[mtbtim]

With the winters your rig spent in one of the Rust Belts of the country, there's a very good chance one or more of your cam adjusters are frozen into the bushing sleeve. The way to address this issue is by cutting the cam adjusters out with a reciprocating saw.

If you're willing to do the work yourself, you can save yourself a ton of money. If you don't have the tools, invest in them because they sill continue to save you money over time.

I have two videos that will help you out. The first video covers all the steps to get the control arms off and the bushings out with a "bottle jack" method. The second video covers how to cut the cam adjusters out with a reciprocating saw and using a 20 ton Harbor Freight press to get the bushings out. The problem with the bottle jack method is some guys use too much force and end up bending the arms.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/kmaZNBp1gZM" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen>
</iframe>


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6FzEHygizoI" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[phattyduck]

What are your current ACTUAL alignment numbers? Ride height (hub center to fender lip)?

Frame rub with Taco wheels is due to the high offset (sucked into the wheel wells). If you aren't getting body rub, extra caster isn't needed. If you go back to 4Runner wheels or lower offset wheels (spacers), then you'll stop the frame rub but increase scrub radius and probably start rubbing the body (errr... fender liner) a bit. Right here:

-Charlie

 

[the_welfare_wagon]

Funnily enough I’m doing the steering rack and both control arms today. I’ll let you know how much of a pain it was. Definitely watch Mr Tim’s to get an idea of it for yourself. It’s not a hard job to do but those cams being frozen add many layers of annoyance and difficulty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[19963.4lsr5]

I paid a local friends shop 1200 to replace the LCA bushings and they replaced the cams and got it aligned for me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mendoncyclesmith]

Appreciate the responses!

Yeah, I'm unlikely to DIY, no garage, no lift, gravel driveway (jack stands etc sink into it) and on.

I'm a highly competent 35 year professional bicycle mechanic, so if I had a garage et al, I might explore the idea, but for now, thinking I'll employ someone better equipped than I.

I'm also just impatient and driving back and forth 15 times to my buddies place who has that stuff, and tying up his lift for a week as we struggle, isn't my cup of tea either. And he doesn't wrench too much anymore, so asking him isn't the option it used to be.

Phatty, no idea, but I will ask for them when I pick her up, and report back. And, you're saying Taco wheels are a different offset than the OEM 4Runners? Everything I've found says they're the same. That would explain a lot if you are correct, so thanks for saying so.

Tim, thanks for those videos, and your input. Humorously, this was the video my shop showed me when they warned me about how much of a PITA this job was. Kudos to you for a well produced, clear bit of videography.



I actually forgot the other half of this. I've seen numerous listings on stuff for sale where the seller basically replaced everything up front with "pro" stuff, names, details don't matter, it was every bolt, linkage, arm, all pretty colors and shiny gold bolts, etc. Looks amazing.

If things are working, and I'm not doing any *extreme* offroading, is there any valid reason to replace those LCA's, and everything else in the area "since you're in there with tools"?

I like the method of doing everything at once, rather than repeating efforts, if it's wise.

If I'm just blowing $$$$ on fancy colored crap that won't add any real world value? I'll save my money for other things.

Or do I just do LCA bushings, the cams, and walk away?

Love tweaking this truck to make it better, but don't want to be dumb.

 

[GhostRing]

The KISS principle and my Tinkeritis are at constant odds with each other, but IMO, even if you aren't going for big lift
or moderate-to-heavy wheeling, all the control arm bushings are still worth the hassle to replace, and maybe consider
checking/replacing the ball joints and CV boots? But all the cam eliminators/a arms/uniballs/etc. are likely unnecessary.

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

Appreciate the responses!

Yeah, I'm unlikely to DIY, no garage, no lift, gravel driveway (jack stands etc sink into it) and on.

I'm a highly competent 35 year professional bicycle mechanic, so if I had a garage et al, I might explore the idea, but for now, thinking I'll employ someone better equipped than I.

I'm also just impatient and driving back and forth 15 times to my buddies place who has that stuff, and tying up his lift for a week as we struggle, isn't my cup of tea either. And he doesn't wrench too much anymore, so asking him isn't the option it used to be.

Phatty, no idea, but I will ask for them when I pick her up, and report back. And, you're saying Taco wheels are a different offset than the OEM 4Runners? Everything I've found says they're the same. That would explain a lot if you are correct, so thanks for saying so.

Tim, thanks for those videos, and your input. Humorously, this was the video my shop showed me when they warned me about how much of a PITA this job was. Kudos to you for a well produced, clear bit of videography.



I actually forgot the other half of this. I've seen numerous listings on stuff for sale where the seller basically replaced everything up front with "pro" stuff, names, details don't matter, it was every bolt, linkage, arm, all pretty colors and shiny gold bolts, etc. Looks amazing.

If things are working, and I'm not doing any *extreme* offroading, is there any valid reason to replace those LCA's, and everything else in the area "since you're in there with tools"?

I like the method of doing everything at once, rather than repeating efforts, if it's wise.

If I'm just blowing $$$$ on fancy colored crap that won't add any real world value? I'll save my money for other things.

Or do I just do LCA bushings, the cams, and walk away?

Love tweaking this truck to make it better, but don't want to be dumb.

Honestly you don't have to tie up your buddies iift for a week. Go get some arms from a junkyard and you can take your time replacing the bushings in those and when you get a spare day to go to your buddies you can get the job knocked out. The biggest pain of the whole job is that you have to remove the rack at least partially in order to remove the rear cam bolts. Sans using a buddies press for some of the work I did the entire job myself recently. It takes a while but it's a very very straightforward job. I recommend finding someone with a press to get old bushings out of the donor arms and new ones in. I had limited luck with the poor mans methods of doing this work and would totally jump straight into a press if I ever had to do this again. Biggest tip I can give is to make sure to put something on the new cam sleeves when you put them in to stave off any new seized cams. A lot of people just use antiseize but I decided to go with marine grease after looking at probably way too many threads on the subject. Also while opinions are mixed on the ride I went with poly bushings and am very happy with them.

Also depending on the shape of the steering components now might be the time to just replace the rack and the outer tie rod ends. That will add some time to the job for sure though.

 

[Mendoncyclesmith]

Thanks you two.

GhostRing, I think you nailed my conundrum to a T, glad I'm not alone. :thumb3:

Noted, and yes, no extreme stuff in her future, the lift is plenty, and thinking on it, getting my full range of adjustment back, for caster, make sense in my mechanical mind. I hate not having things "working properly" it just bugs me. Next years project (along with redone OEM alloys and bigger meats).

My mechanic explained the caster to me this morning, I get it better now, and the thing drives great, even with it being slightly not perfect.

Rushthezepplin, I hear you, and won't bore you with all the details, but suffice to say, I run my own business, I work six days a week, try to shoe horn in several rides per week, have a girlfriend 30 minutes away, etc, life is busy AF, and I don't have the luxury of multiple hours of free time, and if I do, I have plenty of other responsibilities too, sigh, wish I had tinker time, I just don't.

She's back, she's level front to rear, new sneakers, drives great, I just need to drop it at the body shop to get my hood repainted (paint just went weird for some reason last summer, flaking, etc) and I am done spending money for the year, so I can just enjoy this beast.

As requested, the alignment numbers, they're Greek to me, but I assume they'll make sense to more inclined minds.

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

Which one is before and after? Honestly they are both pretty bad given that is negative caster and you could do with A LOT more caster. You are genuinely in the range of it being at least a little dangerous to drive. I bet she really likes to follow every bump and undulation in the road doesn't she? It will be probably worth it to you too shell out the money for the job if you don't have time.

 

[Mendoncyclesmith]

Before and after?

Before is the one with the blue words on the left.

To my mind? It feels fine?? Tracks straight, no vibrations, steering wheel feedback, doesn't feel like it darts, lags, stutters, etc.

In bicycle world? The industry has run out of valid improvements, actually did more than 15 years ago if I'm being honest.

But the juggernaut of sales, must be maintained. So now, the marketing kicks in, selling insecurity and performance anxiety, each year, expounding on how *by reducing this bracing angle, we've improved wheel stiffness by an astonishing 3.425%, and your dawn patrol ride will never be the same*.....

Not only will fewer than a couple dozen pro's in the world, be able to truly perceive the difference, but also, modern construction and materials are so good, that the increase in durability is purely on paper, no one pushes things hard enough to even get into the realms of breakage or excess flex, anyway.

Back in 4Runner world, I feel like the differences in handling/performance, the added alignment changes would create, would be lost on this non professional driver. Perhaps I'm crazy though. If they will help with bigger tires when I get there? I'd be stoked.

I definitely want it proper, once all is said and done, and I'll get there next year when funds recover.

As ling as I don't trash these new tires, (my mechanic assures me I won't), I'm cool with it for this year.

If I'm missing something though, I'm all ears, that's why I'm here, you guys know way more than I do!

Appreciate the knowledge, and willingness to share.

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

Before and after?

Before is the one with the blue words on the left.

To my mind? It feels fine?? Tracks straight, no vibrations, steering wheel feedback, doesn't feel like it darts, lags, stutters, etc.

In bicycle world? The industry has run out of valid improvements, actually did more than 15 years ago if I'm being honest.

But the juggernaut of sales, must be maintained. So now, the marketing kicks in, selling insecurity and performance anxiety, each year, expounding on how *by reducing this bracing angle, we've improved wheel stiffness by an astonishing 3.425%, and your dawn patrol ride will never be the same*.....

Not only will fewer than a couple dozen pro's in the world, be able to truly perceive the difference, but also, modern construction and materials are so good, that the increase in durability is purely on paper, no one pushes things hard enough to even get into the realms of breakage or excess flex, anyway.

Back in 4Runner world, I feel like the differences in handling/performance, the added alignment changes would create, would be lost on this non professional driver. Perhaps I'm crazy though. If they will help with bigger tires when I get there? I'd be stoked.

I definitely want it proper, once all is said and done, and I'll get there next year when funds recover.

As ling as I don't trash these new tires, (my mechanic assures me I won't), I'm cool with it for this year.

If I'm missing something though, I'm all ears, that's why I'm here, you guys know way more than I do!

Appreciate the knowledge, and willingness to share.

Could be a case of normalcy bias tbh. I had nearly 0 career when I got my truck. Fixing it to be positive was very noticable. I also have lots of rough roads from Colorado winters. It would feel fine on newly paved roads with little crown but as soon as I was torn up mountain roads I was constantly wrestling to stay in my lane.

 

[Mendoncyclesmith]

Hey Rush, when you get a free moment?

Your words have been haunting my brain. :biggrin1:

"Follow every bump and undulation", and that my numbers are pretty bad.

It feels so much better, I'm giving it a pass, and now that I've driven it a couple times, I think I'm going crazy with hyper analyzation.

Follow? No? But I am noting a mild skittery judder if I go over some irregularities in the road. Not sure if that's another way of expressing the concept your talking about?

I don't find it to be fighting me in any way, corners properly, etc.

And politely? "Pretty bad". Are you speaking from a professional driving, perfect world, expert level, position? Or a boots on the ground, average vehicle upkeep, this isn't near to correct, position?

I understand both exist and have their place, but knowing it's from a position of chasing that last .02% of improvement, is very different than, these numbers are way off, how do you even drive it?

If ya know what I mean...

 

[the_welfare_wagon]

Funnily enough I’m doing the steering rack and both control arms today. I’ll let you know how much of a pain it was. Definitely watch Mr Tim’s to get an idea of it for yourself. It’s not a hard job to do but those cams being frozen add many layers of annoyance and difficulty


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know you said your unlikely to DIY but I was able to do the steering rack and both control arms in about 4 hours. I had to cut one arm out. Overall it wasn’t really a hard job. Biggest pain was breaking out the cutting wheel for the passenger arm and getting the top lines back in the steering rack


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk