caster out; cam's maxed

[snydmax]

Been digging around and despite the plethora of great alignment info on the forum, I haven't found what I'm looking for.



Just got out of the alignment shop yesterday, after what seemed like a longer than usual wait, and then a longish test drive... the alignment tech, GM and shop owner huddled up for a bit before bringing me into their conversation...



short version, despite all their efforts they could not get driver's side caster down to spec and the cam adjuster's are maxed out. The truck pulls to the left slightly. This all made sense until they started blaming it on my "oversized" tires... 265/75r16 and "custom" wheels... some new-to-me 16" tacoma TRD take-offs.



Back story... new sway connects and bushings, new Toyota LBJ's, new strut/shocks (OE replacement,) tack weld on steering column to eliminate excess play. Then I had it aligned before installing the new rubber. Truck tracked and rode nice for a week or so then started to drift right and wanted to wander a little, steering wheel a tiny bit left when driving straight. So, I took it back in to see if something had slipped... this is when the new tire and wheel combo talk started... ended up diagnosing a bad inner tie rod on drivers side (they missed it before or it failed in last 1000 miles.) So we replaced inner/outer TR's and had them install wheeler's poly rack bushing kit from Energy Suspension... shop offered to warranty the alignment if I'd make the repairs.



Upon realignment, had issues with driver's caster... based upon my understanding of it all, the caster variation would cause a pull to right but camber difference possible to left... I've got a pull to left.



Is their claim of tire size totally bogus as I suspect? what now? would new cam adjusters be the next logical step or do I have them dial the passenger side to match and see if that addresses the pull? ... uploading alignment sheet and eccentrics

 

[mtbtim]

I have a feeling it's not the fact that your cam adjusters are maxed out. I bet one of more of your cam adjusters are seized into the bushing sleeve so they can't turn the cam adjuster anymore. When the cam adjuster is seized into the bushing sleeve, all the tech is doing is trying to twist the rubber inside the LCA bushing and that doesn't really work all that well. I'd bring it back to the shop and have them inspect whether the cam adjuster is actually able to spin in the bushing sleeve. If it can't, it's time for some cutting. The video below demonstrates how to cut them out.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6FzEHygizoI" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[snydmax]

caster &amp;quot;out...&amp;quot; cam's maxed

[MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION] in this case, would they be able to rotate the cams as you can see in the photos I added to the OP?

I can confirm that the front cam adjuster seemed to be working properly as I personally tweaked them to pre-align after new struts/coils before the first alignment

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[Bad Luck]

Upon realignment, had issues with driver's caster... based upon my understanding of it all, the caster variation would cause a pull to right but camber difference possible to left... I've got a pull to left.



Is their claim of tire size totally bogus as I suspect? what now? would new cam adjusters be the next logical step or do I have them dial the passenger side to match and see if that addresses the pull?

Caster does not cause a drift or pull in one direction. Caster controls how fast and with how much force the wheels want to return to straight.

Camber on the other hand is your problem. You have more positive camber on the left than the right and that is what's causing your pull to the left. I would prioritize camber over caster.

Like mtbtim stated you probably have a seized adjuster.

EDIT: I should have worded this better. Camber is going to cause a lot more pull in one direction than caster will.

 

[mtbtim]

[MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION] in this case, would they be able to rotate the cams as you can see in the photos I added to the OP?

I can confirm that the front cam adjuster seemed to be working properly as I personally tweaked them to pre-align after new struts/coils before the first alignment

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Well, if they were easily turning for you, then they aren't rusted in place. If they only budged a little bit, the movement you are seeing might just be the rubber of the bushing giving a little. If you were able to make big movements with the cam adjusters, they're not locked up.

There's also the possibility that you LCA bushings are wasted and that's what's causing your rig to pull.

 

[snydmax]

I’ve read that a variation in caster from side to side can cause pull... not sure what magnitude would cause this but either way it’d pull the other way... toward the higher caster side or in this case to the right

EDIT... that should be caster variation will pull toward the "more-negative" side... still to the right in this case


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[snydmax]

Well, if they were easily turning for you, then they aren't rusted in place. If they only budged a little bit, the movement you are seeing might just be the rubber of the bushing giving a little. If you were able to make big movements with the cam adjusters, they're not locked up.

Yes, adjusters turned, camber changed. That said I didn’t have the wrench to get at the rear cams at home. May be worth a conversation with the tech to confirm they were moving freely


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[phattyduck]

Those cams are not exactly maxed out... but what I'm seeing there is something is wrong on the left front. The cams are set to pull the wheel as far back as possible (minimum caster) and it still has 2.9* of caster. A stock height truck should be pretty close to aligned correctly (caster and camber) with the adjusters set in the middle.

If nothing is bent, you basically ask the alignment tech to max out the caster (2.9* to keep in OEM spec, or higher if you know what you are doing) while keeping 0 or slightly negative camber. They weren't able to do that with your truck.

With that cross caster and camber some pulling would be expected. Check very closely for damage on that left front corner.

-Charlie

 

[snydmax]

Well, if they were easily turning for you, then they aren't rusted in place. If they only budged a little bit, the movement you are seeing might just be the rubber of the bushing giving a little. If you were able to make big movements with the cam adjusters, they're not locked up.

There's also the possibility that you LCA bushings are wasted and that's what's causing your rig to pull.

Talked to the shop, they confirmed cams are rotating freely. Producing adjustments as expected but they maxed out driver side chasing a lower caster value... they’ve not charged me for the realign nor the labor to do the TRE’s and bushings. Been using these guys for years and they run a reputable operation


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[mtbtim]

Yes, adjusters turned, camber changed. That said I didn’t have the wrench to get at the rear cams at home. May be worth a conversation with the tech to confirm they were moving freely


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You could just loosen than rear bolt with a big crescent wrench. The bolt size is a 22mm if you wanted to get a box end wrench on it. I think a lot of alignment techs just assume an adjuster is maxed out when it's really a case of the cam adjuster being locked up.

 

[3bears]

I would think that if the LCA bushings are shot , the shop would say...as that means money for them. However, they might not be able to easily see if the adjuster is frozen in the bushing

 

[snydmax]

Check very closely for damage on that left front corner.

-Charlie

Not what I want to hear, but probably sound advice... what would I be looking for exactly? Nothing glaring was noticed by myself in the handful of times I've been in there... we get an intimate look under that corner every time the oil filter is changed !!!

 

[snydmax]

FWIW, here is the report from the previous alignment... just before new tires/wheels and the TRE's

Didn’t get a good look at the cam positions though

 

[phattyduck]

Nothing in the list of things you changed should have affected the caster - and you are having the opposite problem that most people have. You should have needed a quick toe alignment and that's it.

Here's a snip from the FSM about alignments and where the cams 'should be' for various alignment results:

-Charlie

 

[snydmax]

If I’m reading the chart correctly, at 0,0 cam setting from the factory with no outside variables... I should have:
between 2.75* and 3* caster
and just under -.05* camber


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[UnderFire]

If I was going to a shop and they suggested that tire size was at all a factor in alignment I'd walk right out the door, especially with stock geometry and a damn near stock tire size. Tire size has zero, absolutely nothing to do with alignment spec. You could quite literally bolt a 44" tire on and the spec would still be exactly the same. It looks like your alignment is fairly close to what it should be, and I'm not seeing anything I'd expect to cause any excessive pulling. Make sure your tire pressure isn't off at all.

That being said, it does look like your rear cams are indeed maxed out, which is odd with a stock suspension. Your best case may be to back off the other side to match. The half degree of camber should have little effect on tire wear.

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[snydmax]

If I was going to a shop and they suggested that tire size was at all a factor in alignment I'd walk right out the door, especially with stock geometry and a damn near stock tire size. Tire size has zero, absolutely nothing to do with alignment spec. You could quite literally bolt a 44" tire on and the spec would still be exactly the same. It looks like your alignment is fairly close to what it should be, and I'm not seeing anything I'd expect to cause any excessive pulling. Make sure your tire pressure isn't off at all.

That being said, it does look like your rear cams are indeed maxed out, which is odd with a stock suspension. Your best case may be to back off the other side to match. The half degree of camber should have little effect on tire wear.

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If they’d have blamed tires while my truck was still in the parking lot, I would have walked right out! Instead I politely called BS so we could get back to discussing what the real cause might be.

If I don’t find any obvious damage in there, plan to dial in the passenger side to match as you suggest.

Probably taking the $$ they didn’t charge to install TRE’s to another shop who can get us tracking straight or maybe, if I’m lucky, even diagnose the true cause... is that one of those careful what you wish for moments?


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[Bad Luck]

I’ve read that a variation in caster from side to side can cause pull... not sure what magnitude would cause this but either way it’d pull the other way... toward the higher caster side or in this case to the right

EDIT... that should be caster variation will pull toward the "more-negative" side... still to the right in this case


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You're correct. I should have worded my response better. To clarify, if camber is off .5 degrees and caster is off .5 degrees then the camber pull will be stronger than the caster pull. In my experience camber pulls twice as hard in a direction as caster.

 

[mesooohoppy]

are you lifted at all? its hard to tell. if so, do you have aftermarket UCAs? i was under the assumption that a good aftermarket UCA helps put the caster where you want it (assuming everything else is in spec).

i just got my 3rd gen realigned yesterday because the local shop that originally did it did a great job, but the steering wheel was about an 1/8" off. they did make a comment about the caster when i picked it up the first time, but i have total chaos UCAs and they have always put the caster at 2.0 degrees. i know total chaos knows what they are doing so i relayed this info to them. i also have 33s a 3" lift, PCK, poly rack and lca bushings, new TRES and LBJs. no issues getting everything straight.

 

[snydmax]

are you lifted at all? its hard to tell. if so, do you have aftermarket UCAs? i was under the assumption that a good aftermarket UCA helps put the caster where you want it (assuming everything else is in spec).

i just got my 3rd gen realigned yesterday because the local shop that originally did it did a great job, but the steering wheel was about an 1/8" off. they did make a comment about the caster when i picked it up the first time, but i have total chaos UCAs and they have always put the caster at 2.0 degrees. i know total chaos knows what they are doing so i relayed this info to them. i also have 33s a 3" lift, PCK, poly rack and lca bushings, new TRES and LBJs. no issues getting everything straight.

No lift, just some fresh components... riding about what I imagine is the 99 “highlander” stance. Have an apt Monday at another shop to see if they can do any better... look for any bent parts or maybe just match passenger side to eliminate pull for now.

Kinda funny, seems like when lifted we end up chasing for more caster to help clear bigger tires... and aftermarket UCA’s to replace lost caster. I’ve got the opposite problem at the moment


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