Clutch?

[krmccour]

My 5spd in my 4Runner has been giving me problems for a few months now; notchiness going into gear, hitting a "wall" before finally going in, although it doesn't really grind. It's been getting steadily worse. Recently and up until tonight, it would be notchy going into any gear, and sometimes it would take a couple of pushes to get it in at all (especially first). Tonight on my way to Syracuse I came to a stop sign and it wouldn't go into 1st AT ALL. So I tried gently revving it to see if it would slide in. Nothing. Had to cut it off, put it in gear, and start it in gear just to get it moving. Drove it home by getting lucky at stoplights and slow rolling through stop signs so I didn't have to stop. I'm thinking it's the clutch, but I had a similar issue on an Accord that ended up being the master cylinder. Can I be sure enough that this is the clutch to go ahead and order a new one? Grad school has left me short on cash so I don't want to go around replacing random things.

If I crank it in 1st gear, even with the clutch depressed, it tries to stall as if the pedal isn't pressed in at all. Same if I'm coming to a stop, press clutch in, as soon as get close to stopping it starts to stall. Like I'm not even pressing the clutch in at all.

Thanks for the help, this really happened at the worst time for me.

 

[02SE]

The first thing I would do is bleed the clutch until all of the old fluid is out of the system, along with any air in the fluid.

 

[Troybylt]

When is the last time your trans fluid was changed?

I had very similar issues with my trans when I first brought her home, hitting that wall before going into gear first and third where damn near impossible to engage. I drained out what may have been the original factory fluid, (with 180k on it) put Redline MT-90 GL-4 in the case (highly recommend by multiple people on here, seriously that gear oil in our transmissions is magical, it's got to be made from unicorn spooge) and after a week it was a night and day difference. She shifted so smooth like butter just poping into gear smoothly. After two months I drained and filled it again with new fluid the "old" MT-90 looked only slightly darker than the new stuff. Again after another week and it was shifting even better; like new. I can chage gear with my pinky figer now.

Another issue you may have is crumbled ball seats. If you don't know what they are there simply a beveled ring of plastic that your shift lever rides on. They align your shift lever and keep it centered where it needs to be to help with smooth engagement. Marlin Crawler makes some pretty high quality seats for both your 5spd and transfer levers. I highly recommend them they also helped smooth out my shifting issues. Plus they are cheep.


If it was your master or slave cylinders I would imagine it would be the same with all gears and you said you only have an issue with 1st. You can check for a potential internal leak by laying underneath the truck and looking at the slave cylinder and then have a mate push and hold the clutch pedal and see how far the forkmoves and if it starts creaping back toward the slave cylinder. That would be a reasonable indicator your master or slave is bypassing. That said I have never had to truble shoot the slave or master cylinders.

I'd start with the gear oil unless someone here has more advice on testing the cylinders.

 

[Troybylt]

The first thing I would do is bleed the clutch until all of the old fluid is out of the system, along with any air in the fluid.

This also wouldn't be a bad place to start and it's a really easy job IF you have two people. All you need is fluid and a 12mm open ended wrench.

 

[Troybylt]

Addressing your other concern about your clutch being bad, when was the last time it was chaged? Is it slipping? I highly doubt your clutch is bad if it isn't slipping and you haven't been rough on it. Plus like the master and slave cyclinders if it isn't happening in all gears it's probably not the clutch. Change your fluid and drive it for a week see what happens.

 

[pluton]

When is the last time your trans fluid was changed?

I had very similar issues with my trans when I first brought her home, hitting that wall before going into gear first and third where damn near impossible to engage. I drained out what may have been the original factory fluid, (with 180k on it) put Redline MT-90 GL-4 in the case (highly recommend by multiple people on here, seriously that gear oil in our transmissions is magical, it's got to be made from unicorn spooge) and after a week it was a night and day difference. She shifted so smooth like butter just poping into gear smoothly. After two months I drained and filled it again with new fluid the "old" MT-90 looked only slightly darker than the new stuff. Again after another week and it was shifting even better; like new. I can chage gear with my pinky figer now.

Another issue you may have is crumbled ball seats. If you don't know what they are there simply a beveled ring of plastic that your shift lever rides on. They align your shift lever and keep it centered where it needs to be to help with smooth engagement. Marlin Crawler makes some pretty high quality seats for both your 5spd and transfer levers. I highly recommend them they also helped smooth out my shifting issues. Plus they are cheep.


If it was your master or slave cylinders I would imagine it would be the same with all gears and you said you only have an issue with 1st. You can check for a potential internal leak by laying underneath the truck and looking at the slave cylinder and then have a mate push and hold the clutch pedal and see how far the forkmoves and if it starts creaping back toward the slave cylinder. That would be a reasonable indicator your master or slave is bypassing. That said I have never had to truble shoot the slave or master cylinders.

I'd start with the gear oil unless someone here has more advice on testing the cylinders.

Agree with all this. Notes:
Maybe start with bleeding the clutch cylinder. A wrench, a fresh small bottle of brake fluid and a few minutes of help are all you need.
The OEM ball seats are fine also, the one in my 97 is [I believe]17 years old and works perfectly. However, it's easy to change(at least the trans one is) and not expensive.
Also, I once had a similar shifting issue with my old Toyota truck(W56 trans) that turned out to be a scratched input shaft causing the pilot bearing to funk out.
If you do a complete clutch job, don't cheap out on the parts. OEM(Aisin/ASCO) and Marlin are known to be good.

 

[ThorInc]

Marlin Crawler clutch kit if you have to go that way, check all the parts for vehicle correctness as they sent me the wrong throwout bearing when I bought mine.

 

[Troybylt]

8

Marlin Crawler clutch kit if you have to go that way, check all the parts for vehicle correctness as they sent me the wrong throwout bearing when I bought mine.

I'm loving my Marlin 1200lb clutch kit I personally had no issues with incorrect parts but I have heard others with said issue. I went with a new Toyota Flywheel bolts and shear pins though, even marlin recommends Toyota's fly wheel as being better that theirs.

 

[bishopTS]

sounds less like the clutch and more like the hydraulics.
broken disc would chatter and not disengage, worn disc would slip on acceleration, broken pressure plate would slip or chatter on acceleration.

clutch master cylinder and or clutch slave cylinder will not disengage the engine from the transmission causing you to shut the engine off to shift into first and "float" the other gears while moving.

 

[krmccour]

This is why I love the 4Runner forums. I can post something on the celica forums and not get a response for weeks. So thanks for all the replies.

I changed transmission, front diff, and rear diff fluids all last year and put in Redline MT-90 GL-4.

As many of you have pointed out, once I'm in gear I have NO issues with slipping, chattering, or acceleration.

It has seen an average amount of off-road use, so that can be taken into consideration.
[MENTION=89081]pluton[/MENTION] - it originally started as just notchiness/hitting the wall before going into 1st, and progressed to the other gears occasionally, then progressed to all gears all the time.

Not sure if this is beneficial or not, but as she stands now, if I try to put it into any gear with the clutch depressed, I can hear and feel a thud from the transmission as it hits the wall.
[MENTION=100832]Troybylt[/MENTION] - I have the same thoughts about the master/slave cylinder; if they were going bad, I don't understand why I initially only had trouble going into 1st.

Also, has anyone else with a 5spd noticed that their truck has a very "narrow" engagement on the clutch? For example, I have to give it just the right amount of gas at exactly the right time to have a smooth take-off (other gears are fine), otherwise she shudders a bit (obviously this was before my current problem). This is especially bad on hills. I've never driven anything other than 5spds all my life and never had an issue with smooth take-offs. Again, not sure if this is related or not.

 

[bishopTS]

I don't understand why I initially only had trouble going into 1st.

I agree that is kind of off weird. usually you would have a problem with reverse before the other gears because it's unsynchronised.

 

[MtnT4R]

I had a similar issue in my old dodge, which turned out to be an issue with the synchrons wearing out and not slowing down enough for me to get into 1st or reverse. If you can still get it into 2nd or 3rd at a dead stop, and from there into 1st that's another likely possibility. Instead of having to rebuild my tranny I just drove like that for another few years before getting rid of it.

 

[TheDurk]

I had a similar issue in my old dodge, which turned out to be an issue with the synchrons wearing out and not slowing down enough for me to get into 1st or reverse. If you can still get it into 2nd or 3rd at a dead stop, and from there into 1st that's another likely possibility. Instead of having to rebuild my tranny I just drove like that for another few years before getting rid of it.

If I had the issue I'd never know--I've ALWAYS gone into 2nd before 1st since I learned on a '64 Corvair eons ago. That's how Daddy taught me.

 

[Koko4]

I have a 5-speed too, and I agree that it is very notchy. It is also harder for me to be smooth in 1st, like you mentioned. I think it's normal for this generation 4runner. My other car is a 5-speed Civic that I can take off / shift without being jerky at all, and in the Toyota I have to hit it just PERFECT or else it will be jerky. And I am also running GL-4 Redline MTF since I got it (earlier this year).

I had a similar issue with my Honda's clutch, where it kind of locked me out of first like that. I did a clutch job after driving it home from Illinois (that issue happened in Illinois, then didn't happen at ALL on the way home). When I took the clutch pressure plate off, one of the springs on the clutch disc was somehow loose, and was ABOUT to fall out of the clutch disc. It was actually rattling around in there. There was another small piece of spring in my transmission case. So... one day it probably would have popped all the way out and left me stranded. Funny thing is the clutch disc itself wasn't worn out, and wasn't slipping at all.

BUT I would start with the hydraulics, as others have said. That's going to be the most likely / easiest place to start. Check the level, bleed the fluid, see if there are any pockets of air trapped in there. I believe that issue would also be most accentuated in 1st, although it would probably lock you out of other gears as well, causing you to have to "rev-match" to shift.

 

[Panda96]

Mine seems to be jerky in first when it's cold......first thing when I start driving it. After that it smooths out a good bit.

 

[bike]

I had a similar problem with my clutch. I replaced both master and slave after re-bleeding didn't correct the issue. Clutch would occasionally chatter when slipping it on a hill or sitting in traffic. Clutch never slipped though. Ended up ordering a clutch from Marlin. When I went to install it I had 10 of 15 fingers on my pressure plate and my throw out bearing was pretty pooched. After install and machining my flywheel I've had zero issues, very happy.

Still no idea how I didn't hear or notice those flywheel fingers go missing. The bell housing had some good scaring from them tumbling around in there

 

[krmccour]

Allright guys, here is a long overdue update. It's been freezing up here and I've been really busy, so not much time to fix the runner.

The fluid was low, down to the thin part of the neck of the reservoir, with the plastic saucer dry, however there was still fluid visible.

I had a buddy push the clutch in while the truck was on and I was under it, to watch the slave cylinder piston motion. It seemed to move without any issues, and upon inspection was clean of any obvious leaks.

That being said, if the slave cylinder piston moves 1-1.5 inches, that pretty much eliminates the hydraulics as the source of the problem, correct? Since the slave is the "end" of the movement chain for the hydraulics? The only other thing I could think of is that the slave isn't moving ENOUGH, but I'm not familiar with the minimum movement distance.

Not looking forward to having to drop the trans to further pursue this problem :ybrick:

 

[02SE]

Allright guys, here is a long overdue update. It's been freezing up here and I've been really busy, so not much time to fix the runner.

The fluid was low, down to the thin part of the neck of the reservoir, with the plastic saucer dry, however there was still fluid visible.

I had a buddy push the clutch in while the truck was on and I was under it, to watch the slave cylinder piston motion. It seemed to move without any issues, and upon inspection was clean of any obvious leaks.

That being said, if the slave cylinder piston moves 1-1.5 inches, that pretty much eliminates the hydraulics as the source of the problem, correct? Since the slave is the "end" of the movement chain for the hydraulics? The only other thing I could think of is that the slave isn't moving ENOUGH, but I'm not familiar with the minimum movement distance.

Not looking forward to having to drop the trans to further pursue this problem :ybrick:

The fluid is going somewhere. There is a rubber hose in the clutch line which can start to leak eventually. If not that then the Reservoir, Master Cylinder, slave cylinder or fittings are leaking. Find the leak and fix it, bleed the system with fresh brake fluid, and see how the shifting feel is then.

If the clutch isn't disengaging properly, it can cause symptoms you described.

 

[krmccour]

Right, there certainly is a leak somewhere, most likely internally at the master cylinder, but if the slave cylinder piston still moves under load (while the car is on), then the hydraulics aren't the root of my problem, right? I mainly want to confirm how far the slave cylinder piston should move, because if it's functioning normally it means that the hydraulics, leaky or not, are at least working well enough for now. Correct me if I'm wrong

 

[KidVermicious]

Right, there certainly is a leak somewhere, most likely internally at the master cylinder, but if the slave cylinder piston still moves under load (while the car is on), then the hydraulics aren't the root of my problem, right? I mainly want to confirm how far the slave cylinder piston should move, because if it's functioning normally it means that the hydraulics, leaky or not, are at least working well enough for now. Correct me if I'm wrong

Without knowing how far a correctly function slave cylinder throws the fork, you have no way of knowing if yours is throwing far enough. Any minor leak is enough to bleed pressure and cause an incomplete throw, even if it's not hemorrhaging fluid. You have the symptoms of a hydraulic trouble, and you've found trouble in your hydraulic system... I'd play it like 02SE is calling it and find and fix that leak, because you know that needs fixed. If it turns out not to be the cause of your shifting trouble that's ok, its not a waste of time or parts because it needed fixed anyway.