Col. Oliver North Perspective on Recent General Firing

Thai

Elite Member
Link: General Madness - Oliver North | War Stories - FOXNews.com

Washington, D.C. — Set aside for a moment how inconceivable it is that an article in Rolling Stone magazine could be the cause of anyone being fired — much less a U.S. commanding general in the midst of a war. But that is what happened this week.

General Stanley McChrystal is a tough, combat-experienced officer who knows how to fight. He knows how to kill the enemy. But he clearly doesn't "get it" when it comes to the media. His staff let him down — badly — by allowing Michael Hastings of Rolling Stone to "hang around" with a tape recorder.

That the Pentagon, Central Command and General McChrystal's staff granted unfettered, prolonged access to this publication reflects ignorance, arrogance or both. Everyone involved in approving this "embed" ought to be fired for egregious lack of judgment. They apparently believed they could "win over" Hastings. They were dead wrong.

I don't disagree with much of what General McChrystal or his staff are quoted saying about the O-Team in the article. I have used many of the same terms to describe the present administration — albeit with fewer expletives. It should also be noted that despite claims of "several lengthy interviews" with General McChrystal, there are very few lines of text in the offending article directly attributable to the general.

On our last Fox News trip to Afghanistan, we reported that many of the troops were concerned about new rules of engagement (ROE), cuts in night operations, and limits on raids and air strikes making them more vulnerable to Taliban attacks and improvised explosive devices. Rolling Stone looked for and found troops who were unhappy with the ROE to support the magazine's contention that the war in Afghanistan is "unwinnable." That refrain is increasingly prevalent because President Obama refuses to use the words "win" or "victory."

General McChrystal's firing has been likened to President Lincoln replacing George McClellan during the Civil War and President Truman's sacking Douglas MacArthur in the midst of the Korean War. Not true.

Both McClellan and MacArthur vocally opposed the stated policies and strategy of their presidents. That's not what happened here. In announcing he had "accepted" his battlefield commander's resignation, Obama acknowledged he and McChrystal "are in full agreement about our strategy." This week's firing was simply political theater designed to enhance Obama's stature as a "leader" in the eyes of his supporters and critics.

McChrystal was relieved because a thin-skinned president couldn't take criticism in "the press" and needed to prove he's "the boss." The intemperate, published remarks made by General McChrystal and his staff in Rolling Stone provided an opportunity for President Obama to show his left-wing base that he is "in charge."

The task of commanding 140,000 U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan now falls on the shoulders of General David Petraeus. In accepting the assignment, General Petraeus has not only stepped down from the more senior post as head of U.S. Central Command, but he has also been thrust into the role of "America's only competent general." One critic suggested, "He's very good, but it does make us look like we're a banana republic." Another, a senior officer, said, "Petraeus has accepted 'mission impossible'; herding coalition cats, getting the cooperation of a completely corrupt regime in Kabul and meeting the often conflicting expectations of an inept regime in Washington."

Leading the unruly coalition in Afghanistan may well prove to be far more challenging than what General Petraeus had to do in Iraq from 2007 to 2008. In Baghdad, he had a close working relationship with U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, the respect of other coalition leaders, a supportive, united White House and backing from a bipartisan coalition in Congress. The command in Kabul offers few of these advantages, for the O-Team is nearly incapacitated by internal rivalries and enormous egos.

"Why would General Petraeus take what amounts to a demotion?" I asked. The answer, from an admirer, was revealing: "He was selected because he is a proven commodity. Everyone knows Petraeus is a battle-tested commander and a patriot. In Iraq, he showed how to work every military, diplomatic and political angle necessary to get the job done. By taking the evidently thankless job in Kabul, he just guaranteed he will be the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."

Perhaps. But first, Petraeus has to convince this commander in chief how to say, "victory." He has a year to do it.
 
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Link: General Madness - Oliver North | War Stories - FOXNews.com

Washington, D.C. — Set aside for a moment how inconceivable it is that an article in Rolling Stone magazine could be the cause of anyone being fired — much less a U.S. commanding general in the midst of a war. But that is what happened this week.

This sentence doesn't even make sense, but worse than that, it's not true. The article wasn't the reason McChrystal was fired, nor was Rolling Stone magazine. McChrystal's actions are what got him fired. He owned up to everything that was in the article, apologized for it, and that's all there is to it. It could have been released in a Pakistani version of the onion. The fact that it's true is why he was fired. Olly's a dipshit.

General Stanley McChrystal is a tough, combat-experienced officer who knows how to fight. He knows how to kill the enemy. But he clearly doesn't "get it" when it comes to the media. His staff let him down — badly — by allowing Michael Hastings of Rolling Stone to "hang around" with a tape recorder.

Negative. He let his staff down. His leadership and the environment it fostered lead to a staff that was too cozy with insults and anti-administration banter. He got what he deserved and it was all his fault.

That the Pentagon, Central Command and General McChrystal's staff granted unfettered, prolonged access to this publication reflects ignorance, arrogance or both. Everyone involved in approving this "embed" ought to be fired for egregious lack of judgment. They apparently believed they could "win over" Hastings. They were dead wrong.


Deflect blame all you want Olly. It's McChrystal's fault.

I don't disagree with much of what General McChrystal or his staff are quoted saying about the O-Team in the article. I have used many of the same terms to describe the present administration — albeit with fewer expletives. It should also be noted that despite claims of "several lengthy interviews" with General McChrystal, there are very few lines of text in the offending article directly attributable to the general.

It doesn't matter what anyone agrees or disagrees with. What matters is that a General undermined the authority of the POTUS, and thereby endangered the lives of his troops.

On our last Fox News trip to Afghanistan, we reported that many of the troops were concerned about new rules of engagement (ROE), cuts in night operations, and limits on raids and air strikes making them more vulnerable to Taliban attacks and improvised explosive devices. Rolling Stone looked for and found troops who were unhappy with the ROE to support the magazine's contention that the war in Afghanistan is "unwinnable." That refrain is increasingly prevalent because President Obama refuses to use the words "win" or "victory."

Ain't it just like Fox news to twist the facts to fit their agenda. Of course the troops aren't happy with the war. They're losing buddies to it, but the only person guilty of validating their fears is McChrystal. The last thing they need to hear while they're worried about whether the public and the administration support the war is their commanding General complaining about the President. He should have been brought up on charges, not just fired.

General McChrystal's firing has been likened to President Lincoln replacing George McClellan during the Civil War and President Truman's sacking Douglas MacArthur in the midst of the Korean War. Not true.

It's also not true that it's been "likened" to those cases. It's been "compared" to those cases. Big difference. This is a typical Faux News straw man. Does anyone at Fox ever tell the truth about ANYTHING????

Both McClellan and MacArthur vocally opposed the stated policies and strategy of their presidents. That's not what happened here. In announcing he had "accepted" his battlefield commander's resignation, Obama acknowledged he and McChrystal "are in full agreement about our strategy." This week's firing was simply political theater designed to enhance Obama's stature as a "leader" in the eyes of his supporters and critics.

As an active duty military officer, I am embarrassed for Oliver North. This comment is so inconsistent with everything we stand for that he should be ashamed, and his viewership should plummet. If there was a republican president in office North's comment would be the exact opposite. "This week's firing confirms that President Conservativenuts isn't going to allow politics to interfere with the good order and discipline of his military. He showed true leadership on this one." I effing HATE FOX!!!!!!

McChrystal was relieved because a thin-skinned president couldn't take criticism in "the press" and needed to prove he's "the boss." The intemperate, published remarks made by General McChrystal and his staff in Rolling Stone provided an opportunity for President Obama to show his left-wing base that he is "in charge."

Blah blah blah, BS idiot.

The task of commanding 140,000 U.S. and NATO troops in Afghanistan now falls on the shoulders of General David Petraeus. In accepting the assignment, General Petraeus has not only stepped down from the more senior post as head of U.S. Central Command, but he has also been thrust into the role of "America's only competent general." One critic suggested, "He's very good, but it does make us look like we're a banana republic." Another, a senior officer, said, "Petraeus has accepted 'mission impossible'; herding coalition cats, getting the cooperation of a completely corrupt regime in Kabul and meeting the often conflicting expectations of an inept regime in Washington."

Leading the unruly coalition in Afghanistan may well prove to be far more challenging than what General Petraeus had to do in Iraq from 2007 to 2008. In Baghdad, he had a close working relationship with U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker, the respect of other coalition leaders, a supportive, united White House and backing from a bipartisan coalition in Congress. The command in Kabul offers few of these advantages, for the O-Team is nearly incapacitated by internal rivalries and enormous egos.

"Why would General Petraeus take what amounts to a demotion?" I asked. The answer, from an admirer, was revealing: "He was selected because he is a proven commodity. Everyone knows Petraeus is a battle-tested commander and a patriot. In Iraq, he showed how to work every military, diplomatic and political angle necessary to get the job done. By taking the evidently thankless job in Kabul, he just guaranteed he will be the next chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff."

Perhaps. But first, Petraeus has to convince this commander in chief how to say, "victory." He has a year to do it.

If I continue I might puke.
 
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IMHO. In the military, you don't say anything about your boss especially the Commander In-Chief. He's lucky he gets to retire as a 4-star. If it were me, i prolly get Art 15, BCD, and jail time. I'm retired now so i'm FREE. :D
 
The only quote in the artical by McChrystal was the line about Biden "Who's that". Everything else was by other people in the base. Meh, who in Washington actually reads anything they have an opinion about anyway?

I think McChrystal had to go for other reasons. This COIN isn't working, and because of polotics it takes a new leader to change ROE.
 
Freedom of speech is overrated, right? Apparently it's a right as long as the president agrees. Our president is an empty suit and can't take criticism IMO. Chiplee, where is the research to back up your rebuttles? I know you serve in the military and I thank you for that, but I believe those to be opinions more than facts.

Why has Obama recieved pretty much no criticism on his handling of the war? He's not doing anything different than the last administration - although he promised us he would have our troops out of there by now when he was trying to get our votes. LIAR.
 
Freedom of speach doesn't give military members the right to badmouth their leadership.

Of course, based on the link I posted above, I'm not confident he did to any significant degree.
 
When the Commander in Chief has zero military or tactical experience, it is a scary thing to think that our experienced generals and the like aren't "allowed" to criticize. I would equate this to Mozart not being allowed to critique Justin Beeber.
 
People's feelings for Obama aside, surely you guys know if you're in the military, you check your freedom of speech at the door and chose your critical words very carefully and who you say them to. There are proper channels to bring these issues up and you don't breach protocol. Arguing against that basic tenet is ridiculous and should evoke a null response. Choose a different tactic.

http://www.airpower.maxwell.af.mil/airchronicles/aureview/1980/may-jun/moran.html
 
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I wasn't talking about a normal military situation like a private critiquing an officer or something more typical. I totally understand the concept of relinquishing your personal freedoms when you join the military. But IMO, at the highest command level, there absolutely needs to be some freedom for our top brass to give personal input and be able to critique a president who has no knowledge or experience.

In the past the rule still existed, but people like Patton ignored particularly bad orders and spoke their mind for the greater good and we are damn lucky they did. But that was in a time where common sense and just getting the job done was the thing that mattered. These ideals didn't take a backseat to egos and protocol so easily. All right I'll shut up now.
 
But IMO, at the highest command level, there absolutely needs to be some freedom for our top brass to give personal input and be able to critique a president who has no knowledge or experience.

There is, but not publicly. This is a tricky thing to explain so bear with me for a second here. So long as an individual is serving in the military, at ANY level, their responsibility to command relationships transcends their moral obligation to "speak out" when they don't believe in their leadership. You have to handle things in house. You don't have the option to get the media on your side or appeal to public opinion to win the argument like a politician. Let me explain why.

Generals in particular are expected and even strongly encouraged to question their leadership, but they have to do it via the proper channels, ie. straight to their faces. If a General doesn't agree with the orders he's given, it is his responsibility to refuse to execute those orders. If an agreement can't be made and the general still doesn't believe in the orders then he should pound his fists and jump up and down on the president's desk refusing to execute. In the end, if there is still no resolution, the general must resign. When a General behaves like ole Stanley here, no one suffers more than the troops that are expected to execute the orders in question. This is because they will have their doubts already, and having those doubts affirmed by a blabber mouth general crushes their morale. This is the ONLY reason we obey the chain of command. It has nothing to do with thin skinned presidents who didn't serve in the military. Obama did exactly what he should have done, and the spin the right is putting on it comes as no surprise to anyone whose awake.

In the past the rule still existed, but people like Patton ignored particularly bad orders and spoke their mind for the greater good and we are damn lucky they did.

No. They undoubtedly got thousands of men killed by behaving that way. We will never know how much more effective the United States military might have been if those Generals hadn't been grand standing glory seekers who put their egos ahead of the welfare of their troops.

But that was in a time where common sense and just getting the job done was the thing that mattered. These ideals didn't take a backseat to egos and protocol so easily. All right I'll shut up now.

You have it backwards, but I can see how an outsider would take it that way. The "ways of the military" aren't intuitively obvious to those who haven't seen it from the inside for a couple of decades.
 
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When the Commander in Chief has zero military or tactical experience, it is a scary thing to think that our experienced generals and the like aren't "allowed" to criticize. I would equate this to Mozart not being allowed to critique Justin Beeber.


Again, this is not a freedom of speech issue. Generals are not only allowed, but encouraged to critique the president and his decisions. That's why they advise him. They are not, however, allowed to publicly undermine his authority and give the troops in theater a legitimate reason to doubt whether they're operating under a clear commander's intent. Popular opinion of this issue demonstrates ignorance of the of the importance of clear command authority. The military is NOT a democracy, and for good reason. Republicans understand this, but they never miss an opportunity to twist something for political gain. They are disgusting.

edit: Oh and, since you asked, my "references" are Military Doctrinal publications, 4 years enlisted as an 0311 (basic rifleman) and 12 years commissioned as an F-18 pilot. I'm a graduate of the resident Expeditionary Warfare School and I'm currently enrolled in Command and Staff College and business school for an MBA. This General screwed up, and this president did exactly what he should have done.
 
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Well, I said I would shut up now, but this is too good! It's interesting to talk about this, especially with a soldier and pilot like yourself chiplee. Obviously we have different political views, but that's cool.

I won't try to pretend like I know the chain of command or military protocol like you do, so after reading what you had to say about how the general conducted himself, I can see how there probably was a better and more effective way of going about it. But, when a general stands up publicly against the president like that, it does kind of put up a red flag and make me question his policy. The fact that I don't support many of his other policies just adds to it. Your experience no doubt provides insight into military protocol, but politics are still politics when it comes to republicans, democrats and the president, which I am none of (independent).

No. They undoubtedly got thousands of men killed by behaving that way. We will never know how much more effective the United States military might have been if those Generals hadn't been grand standing glory seekers who put their egos ahead of the welfare of their troops.

I think Monty was a glory seeker, but he wasn't the tactician that Patton was, Holland being the prime example. Patton became a legend in his own time and the Germans respected and feared him like the Allies feared Rommel. He took heavy casualties at times because of his ego, but he also gave em. The more I've read about Patton, the more I realized that he really was brilliant albeit extremely unconventional. He never lost a battle and knew how to defeat the enemy's morale.

I'm sure as a military officer you know all about this, but one could argue that D-Day also owes much of it's success to Patton and the reputation he built for himself in Africa and Sicily. When Normandy came around, the Germans did not send the reinforcements they could have because they were convinced that we would never leave Patton out of the main invasion. That made them keep key panzer divisions on hold that could have been used in Normandy and potentially could have turned the tide. Patton broke protocol, but many would argue Patton's intuitions were ultimately a key to winning the war, at least in an indirect way. Eisenhower capitalized on Patton's reputation and used him as an ace up his sleeve.
 
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