Consumer Reports April care issue

[peter78]

I saw that on page 19 & 20, Best Values they say for mid size SUV's, the Hyundai Santa Fe is the best value and the Toyota 4Runner is one of the worst values. Also, they rate the reliability of the 2010 as just average.

Anyway, I saw this link and I was able to download the entire magazine, I am not sure how long this link will be up. I did a Norton virus scan and it seemed fine.

Consumer Reports - April 2011.pdf

I saw this in the RAV4 forum. I am thinking of getting a small car for my next car. I still plan on keeping my 2 4Runners, but I have a 20 year old car that gets the worse mileage of all my cars.

Anyway, I have never seen getting the entire magazine on-line.

 

[Thai]

Honda CRV seems like a good buy but, strangely, its roof strength test was not good. Personally, i love what i got my father...Honda Element. Yeah, it gets average fuel economy (20/25 for FWD model and -1 each for AWD), but it built very well and has spectacular crash test scores all around. And my father is using it like a pickup truck for around the house stuff due to its waterproof seating and rubber flooring. The ride is more "truck-like" than Camry smooth. The space inside is remarkable. Honda is also not making the Element at all after 2011. So, you better pick one up now if you want new...and you should get a big discount.

The RAV4 is nice, but i keep on hearing minor (but annoying) quality control issues. It is not built to previous gen's quality...at least that is what i am hearing.

 

[JohnsD90]

The RAV4 is nice, but i keep on hearing minor (but annoying) quality control issues. It is not built to previous gen's quality...at least that is what i am hearing.

I've heard this about the 5th gen too, atleast at first, its a shame that its happening, in my opinion reliabilty was toyota's draw.

 

[DRC]

A Hyundai Soufflé better than a Toyota? I don’t think so! Two of my neighbors have Hyundai’s and they are always broken down and in for service. Just this past summer I saw both of their cars, one a min-van and one a Soufflé, towed to the dealer for service. One had the entire electrical system short out and the other the brakes stopped working.

If I am not mistaken Consumer Reports rated the 2004 Sienna as a top vehicle. I own one and it’s a piece of carp. Just start googling for Sienna problems and you will find post after post of problems that affect many owners. My wife has even had other Sienna owners pull up next to her at the stop light and ask “have you had such and such problem with yours?”

IMHO, reviews by any published magazine are highly subjective, even consumer reports. Never will you see a magazine call a product “junk” or a “waste of money”. Instead they try to give some ratings in such a way to keep them from the possibility of any ligation. Like the JD Power “Initial Satisfaction” review. What nonsense is this? Initial satisfaction…of course most people are going to be pleased with their purchase in the first few weeks of a purchase. Does this review provide any value? Ask that same person what they think six months or a year down the road, I bet you will get different results.

The best source for reviews is online post from real world people posting real world experience.

 

[Thai]

A Hyundai Soufflé better than a Toyota? I don’t think so! Two of my neighbors have Hyundai’s and they are always broken down and in for service. Just this past summer I saw both of their cars, one a min-van and one a Soufflé, towed to the dealer for service. One had the entire electrical system short out and the other the brakes stopped working.

If I am not mistaken Consumer Reports rated the 2004 Sienna as a top vehicle. I own one and it’s a piece of carp. Just start googling for Sienna problems and you will find post after post of problems that affect many owners. My wife has even had other Sienna owners pull up next to her at the stop light and ask “have you had such and such problem with yours?”

IMHO, reviews by any published magazine are highly subjective, even consumer reports. Never will you see a magazine call a product “junk” or a “waste of money”. Instead they try to give some ratings in such a way to keep them from the possibility of any ligation. Like the JD Power “Initial Satisfaction” review. What nonsense is this? Initial satisfaction…of course most people are going to be pleased with their purchase in the first few weeks of a purchase. Does this review provide any value? Ask that same person what they think six months or a year down the road, I bet you will get different results.

The best source for reviews is online post from real world people posting real world experience.

Well, i have a 2008 Sienna...same gen as your old Sienna...and have had zero problems with it and we're at 48,000 miles. My brother's '05 Sienna also is pretty much problem-free and he has over 70k miles. And yeah, the Sienna has been rated #1 by CR and JD Powers in terms of reliability/durability. My brother's 2008 Honda Ody just blew his torque converter! His memory seat can't remember anything. He has rattles because the sliding door and frame can't fit right...a very common issue that affects ALL Ody of that generation!

Real world people posting real world experience is also extremely subjective...actually, basing one's opinion on posts from a few persons (sometime the same person posting many times!) is equally useless.

Don't get me wrong, i am not a Hyundai fan, but their recent offerings have been impressive. The long term durability/reliability is still up in the air because they have redesigned their whole lineup. So, basing your opinion on some old Hyundai is probably not accurate about the current models.

JD Powers does 2 major surveys. Initial Quality, as you stated, is of lesser importance. But, if by your reasoning, then all cars should get great results, right? This is not the case unfortunately because, Land Rover for example, sucks to no end. VW sucks. Mercedes not so hot. Toyota, Honda, Lexus, etc. rank high. The 2nd survey is about dependability...they ask owners after 3 years about their vehicles and rank them. Surprisingly, the trend of Initial Quality does correlate to the Durability Survey! Does that tell you something? I don't know, but if you put the results together among the different surveys, then you get a general consensus...and THAT is why these surveys are important. No one in their right mine (hopefully) will look at just one survey and buy a car...if they do that, then that person deserves a Lemon!

Edit: here is the link to 2010 dependability survey: 2010 Vehicle Dependability Study Results | J.D. Power

And here are the top 3 in each segment for 2010 dependability survey: http://www.jdpower.com/autos/articles/2010-Vehicle-Dependability-Study-Results/page-3/

 

[peter78]

Don't get me wrong, i am not a Hyundai fan, but their recent offerings have been impressive. The long term durability/reliability is still up in the air because they have redesigned their whole lineup. So, basing your opinion on some old Hyundai is probably not accurate about the current models.

It seems odd to me that Consumer Reports says that Hyundai is so good. In last years issue the two worst reliability records after 10 years was a tie with Hyundai and VW. Well, if they are the worst, are they now making cars that are as reliable as Toyota, it seems to be not driven by facts.

I am also surprised they don't say too much about the Honda Accord, it is OK, but the Hyundai is so much better. I wonder if a person after say 7 years of ownership would say the same thing.

 

[peter78]

I just notice that this issue had a graph of who is most reliable after 10 years. It seems to me that there is now a 3 way tie for dead last.

Toyota and Honda are still at the top of the heap.

 

[neoliu918]

no any brands are perfect..keep supporting:bluejump: the ones you like..

 

[Thai]

It seems odd to me that Consumer Reports says that Hyundai is so good. In last years issue the two worst reliability records after 10 years was a tie with Hyundai and VW. Well, if they are the worst, are they now making cars that are as reliable as Toyota, it seems to be not driven by facts.

I am also surprised they don't say too much about the Honda Accord, it is OK, but the Hyundai is so much better. I wonder if a person after say 7 years of ownership would say the same thing.

Well, i think that CR's recommendations are based on their test drive reviews, and not necessarily on a car's long term durability. For example, they recommend the BMW 3-series despite it having average reliability. The BMW 3's performance outshines their average reliability...thus, CR recommends it. I assume that is the same thing with these new Hyundais...their features and performance outshines their unknown reliability.

With Toyota, their performance and features have never been really class-leading, but their reliability has...so CR recommended them in the past. However, with recent Toyota troubles, Toyota's reputation has been tarnished...and thus, their one major advantage over the competition is gone. So, this explains CR's current recommendations and ratings. We all know that CR did not like the 4runner's soft suspension and poor performance otherwise for an on-road car...i don't believe that CR puts much emphasis on off-road capability other than being able to do dirt roads...so, what did you expect?

 

[gptoy96]

Is JD Power a better source for results when all a person wants to consider is reliability? If CR is basing a portion of it's results on subjective items then it really could be different from person to person. (The results of the new 4R seems to be affected because of this rather than facts).

I'd like a survey that just bases it's results on facts, things regarding if the vehicle has issues or breaks down or not. I really don't care if one person doesn't like where the window switches were put or that a grill looks funny to them.

 

[Satter]

Are 4Runners still being made in Japan?

 

[Thai]

Is JD Power a better source for results when all a person wants to consider is reliability? If CR is basing a portion of it's results on subjective items then it really could be different from person to person. (The results of the new 4R seems to be affected because of this rather than facts).

I'd like a survey that just bases it's results on facts, things regarding if the vehicle has issues or breaks down or not. I really don't care if one person doesn't like where the window switches were put or that a grill looks funny to them.

CR also tests reliability, but that is NOT their only criteria in recommending a car. If you look at their magazine, then you will see a circle for reliability rating. But, they do look at other things too. So, i would look at both if i want to know about reliability, durability, and dependability.

Are 4Runners still being made in Japan?

I believe so.

 

[Satter]

Is JD Power a better source for results when all a person wants to consider is reliability?

On an am station here in Houston is a guy who hosts a car show program. He's a semi-retired who started out as a used car dealer 30+ years ago to becoming the owner of multiple dealerships in Texas, Oklahoma and California. I've heard in say on 2 different occasions how JD Powers was an absolute joke. He said that their "initial quality" ranking was just that, initial quality. If everything worked on the car at the moment of purchase, it passed the initial quality test. If something as small as the cigarette lighter was broken it didn't pass the test. Other than that it tells you nothing about the true quality of the vehicle. I've found the best publication to give you a real impression of a vehicle's reliability is CR. Other than that, word of mouth.

 

[Thai]

He said that their "initial quality" ranking was just that, initial quality. If everything worked on the car at the moment of purchase, it passed the initial quality test. If something as small as the cigarette lighter was broken it didn't pass the test. Other than that it tells you nothing about the true quality of the vehicle. I've found the best publication to give you a real impression of a vehicle's reliability is CR. Other than that, word of mouth.

Ok...isn't that what JD Powers says in the title of the survey?? It is not like JD Powers is lying about the purpose of the survey. Why is that Houston car salesman mad about the survey when it says EXACTLY what it does? I think that your salesman is wrong about another thing...the JD Powers survey is just a survey to random consumers of a particular product...it is NOT a testdrive by JD Powers. It lists the issues/complaints by actual owners within the first few months of ownership. Thus, there is no "test to pass."

Word of mouth? Well, that can get quite tricky.

 

[Satter]

Ok...isn't that what JD Powers says in the title of the survey?? It is not like JD Powers is lying about the purpose of the survey. Why is that Houston car salesman mad about the survey when it says EXACTLY what it does? I think that your salesman is wrong about another thing...the JD Powers survey is just a survey to random consumers of a particular product...it is NOT a testdrive by JD Powers. It lists the issues/complaints by actual owners within the first few months of ownership. Thus, there is no "test to pass."

Word of mouth? Well, that can get quite tricky.

He's not mad. He says it's a ridiculous survey. And I would have to agree. I mean, in recent memory has their been a car produced that had a lot of noticable defections in the showroom? No one really finds how well the car was put together until well after they've driven it off the lot. Again, just my opinion. Things seem to run "perfectly" when they're brand new.

EDIT: I think we may be talking about two different things. If you're refering to JD Powers Initial Quality survey has been what is says, then I agree. The point I was trying to make is that I don't believe their tells you anything as far as the true quality of a product. Just my opinion.

 

[Thai]

He's not mad. He says it's a ridiculous survey. And I would have to agree. I mean, in recent memory has their been a car produced that had a lot of noticable defections in the showroom? No one really finds how well the car was put together until well after they've driven it off the lot. Again, just my opinion. Things seem to run "perfectly" when they're brand new.

EDIT: I think we may be talking about two different things. If you're refering to JD Powers Initial Quality survey has been what is says, then I agree. The point I was trying to make is that I don't believe their tells you anything as far as the true quality of a product. Just my opinion.

I would agree with you that it is useless IF every car got perfect grades...but, that is NOT the case. There are many brands out there that scores LOW on these initial surveys...how do you (or the car salesman that you mentioned) explain that?

Initial quality may not mean dependability, but it does show you how a car manufacturer pays attention to the small details or how a branch of the manufacturer (aka DEALER) prepares a car for sale. Is that not important to you? It is to me. That is how i look at it. Is it as valuable as Dependability survey that JD Powers (or CR) does? No, but is it useless? Personally, i don't think so...because more often than not, the Initial Quality ratings is backed up by the Dependability survey ratings. Coincidence? Not really since this has been a trend since JD Powers did their surveys many moons ago.