Convince me to get a Toyota...

[Andrew]

Hey everyone-

Some of you will recognize me from the old 4x4Wire days... still a great forum, but it seems as though the daily driver/non-beater 4Runners are stationed here now (and that other forum, where the average IQ is roughly the same as my waist size- and I'm pretty skinny!)

Anyway, I have a 2002 Grand Cherokee V8 that I have really mixed emotions on. I LOVE the actual vehicle- it's my favorite SUV I've owned (I had a 2000 4Runner and a 97 Mountaineer). It has a terrific ride, handles well, is more than capable off road, has a strong V8, and at 27,000 miles it's more solid than my 4Runner ever was- that Toyota rattled like none other. However, it has not been nearly as reliable as my Toyota. While I'm convinced that Jeep uses higher quality materials, their assembly quality and mechanical precision simply cannot compare to Toyota. I've had a recurring tick in the steering column when I turn that's driving me crazy at the moment, and the tire pressure sensors are constantly squawking at me to tell me that a tire is low when they're fine.

So it comes down to this... I've really enjoyed the Jeep, but I'm ready for something different. I toyed with trading even for a 2001/2002 4Runner SR5, but couldn't find one in the right color that didn't have problems. (I learned that there are PLENTY of red 4Runners out there if anyone is shopping... I don't like red! :artist: )

There is a totally redesigned Grand Cherokee coming out in the Fall. It has IFS and an available 5.7L HEMI V8 engine. It's also only about 3" longer than my 02, which makes it a great size for me. I'm also eligible for the Chrysler friends and family discount, which would make it extremely affordable. I have figured that I buy one with an MSRP of up to about $38,000 and be where I want to be- that gets me a close to fully loaded 04 and should be similar for the 05. I went ahead and placed an "order" for an 05, but I haven't specced it out yet- and I haven't put money on it yet.

However, I'm still considering a 4Runner- I drove one and was lukewarm impressed by it. I drove a Touareg right before, which of course made the 4Runner look cheaply assembled by comparison, but I just felt that Toyota picked the absolute cheapest materials to build the 4Runner. The metal panels are thin, the paint seemed like a single layer, and the interior materials were not what I expected in a $35,000 vehicle. I was also disheartened to learn that unless I ordered from the factory (8 weeks), I'd have to spend for a Limited to get the side airbags. I like the Limited features- they're similar to what I have in my current Jeep- but I don't really want to spend $40,000- keep in mind that my Chrysler discount is a lot bigger than a Toyota rebate!

So, here's what this essay I've written all boils down to... (can you tell I'm not real motivated to do work this morning? )

1) Convince me to buy a 4Runner over a Jeep.
2) Why did you buy your 4Runner? What "really sold you" on one?
3) What did I miss in my test drives? I drove a Limited V6 4WD and a Sport V8 4WD. I'd be more inclined to go for the latter and order to get the airbags- I'm not buying one without.


Hopefully this will get some good discussion going! I didn't write this thesis for nothing!

 

[Auburn 4Runner]

When I was shopping for a new vehicle two years ago I liked two suvs (4runner and grand cherokee). I drove several 2001,2002, and 2003 model GC. I also drove a 2002 and 2003 model 4runner. The reason I chose the 03 4runner was because it felt solid and this being my first vehicle that I had to buy I wanted something that would last me a while. The GC just drove and felt like they were cheaply built. All of them felt like they were going to fall apart while I was driving them. It is hard to explain but just through the feel in the steering wheel, I could tell they weren't nearly as solid as a 4runner. I will never spend 30+ thousand on a chrysler product until they can start proving to me that they are reliable. There are some things that I don't like about my 4runner such as the cheap silver trim on the dash and the paint chips easily, but I still love my vehicle. I got a 2wd V6 because I do mild offroading and the V6 gives me all the power I need. I wouldn't see where you would need the 5.7L Hemi unless you do a lot of towing because it is gonna guzzle gas.

 

[toybox]

I had a '96 GC and loved it. It had all the whistles and bells. At 133k it developed a couple of oil leaks and I could get a great deal on a '97 4runner so I traded it for the 4runner (mind you nothing happened to that jeep from 48k to 133k, it was very reliable) When I got the '97 4runner I misssed all the stuff in the jeep and the cockpit felt a little small and the radio was weak, It did not treat me bad but I was dying for the new 4runner to come out.

What sold me on the 4runner? I guess it comes down to reliability mostly and secondly the 4runner feels more solid. I also got an awesome deal on my 4runner so even with jeep rebates I'm sure it is comparable (V8 sport sticker $35,500...I bought it for $29,400)

 

[GreyRunner]

Here is my opinion.
Go with Toyota and don't look back. Due to a car accident I recently had to Purchase a new car('04 4Runner SE V6 Gray). However, I had to rent a car for about 3 weeks before a new purchase though.

I managed to end up in a brand new 2004 Jeep Grand Jerokee Laredo. It's nice on the surface and has a few nice features. However, Most of the interior is cheaply made and inferior compared to anything Toyota makes. I am a short guy and the ergonomics in the Jeep were terrible, and it was worse for my Fiance. Visibilty and blind spots were also a problem. Toyota has much better glass. The ride in the jeep made me feel sea sick and it bounced all over. I have also read and heard of a lot of mechanical problems with jeeps(ie you'll have to replace the brakes a lot)
The upside the Jeep is cheeper.

 

[EXTEX]

Jeepers

I don't know very much about Toyotas, 'cept I like mine: it's solid, & ain't broke yet. Of the 'defects' I read around here, I have zero.

I had been in Jeeps for 21 years, so feel as tho I can post w/some knowledge. I've had 'em good, bad, slo & fast.

A few observations: I think the influence of Daimler Benz cannot be overestimated. They have made many unexplained changes in direction, which defy logic. It is safe to say we don't know their intentions, because they don't either. Their 99 WJ [GC]was an abysmal failure, an ensuing years weren't much better. I just do not trust Daimler Benz, with their plans for Chrysler/Jeep.

I'm not into entering a debate as subjective as materials & build quality. AS sure as each individual vehicle is different, so are the owners judging them. No baseline; no gague here.

But what isn't subjective is money. And no one in this thread has addressed depreciation. [I'll give the domestic fans just a minute or so to run like hell]. A major reason I went Toyota - I was just flat over getting my eyes jabbed out on resale. You give $40k for something, how do they have the balls to tell you it's worth $20k in a little over 2 years? It's one thing to be patriotic & all, but now the $ going to Germany? Pisson'em. :rant: They simply would not be worth their $ if they were perfect, and they are far from that! Just my .02......and worth the price.

 

[Andrew]

Great comments

Everyone posted some great, insightful comments. I have a few responses and a few questions. Keep in mind that I currently own a 2002 Jeep and that I am looking at the 2005 model. They are entirely different vehicles- I've seen the '05 and I can assure that in terms of sensory appeal it is a significant step up from the '02 and, in my opinion, the '04 4Runner.

Why would I get a 5.7 Hemi in the Jeep? Because I like power and I can afford it. I would definitely get the 4.7 in the 4Runner- I liked that engine a lot on the test drive.

Auburn- Great advice on test driving a used model first. I actually drove a 2000 or 2001 (I forget) Jeep before I bought mine- it seemed fine to me. I think my Jeep has held up well- it's not as "new looking" as my 4Runner was with similar mileage, but it has fewer rattles and funny sounds.

Toybox- yeah, you got a GREAT deal! I'm hoping to find something with my price (not including trade or anything) of around $30-31k. That puts me in a 38k Jeep or probably a 36k 4Runner. The 36k 4Runners are Sport Editions with no leather and no side airbags, whereas the Jeeps are loaded Limiteds.

GreyRunner- I already have a 2002 Jeep (same as the '04). The '05 is a totally redesigned model- shares very little with the 04. I'm pretty happy with my '02- I find it to be well-built, if not as (over) engineered as a Toyota.

EXTEX- First, the WJ was designed while it was still ChryslerCorp. I'd like to think that Daimler improved Chrysler- have you seen the new 300s? I think they're impressive. The Pacifica, Durango, and Ram have all received above average reliability rankings, so I'm hoping that Daimler helped Chrysler in that case. However, your point about depreciation really struck home. My Jeep is technically 2 years old but will soon be a 3 year old model (I bought a late 02). I paid 28,000 for it. Right now I can expect about 17,000 in trade-in on a real good day. That's pretty lousy. A 4Runner that would have gone for the same price (somewhat basic 4Runner, mind) would trade-in for at least $2,000 more. A loaded 4Runner will hold its value even better. Toyota resale values are terrific and Jeep's are "good for a domestic," aka mediocre.

EXTEX and toybox- what made you trade your Jeeps for Toyotas?

 

[toybox]

Re: Great comments

EXTEX and toybox- what made you trade your Jeeps for Toyotas?

As I said the jeep was getting up there in mileage (133k) and developed a couple of oil leaks (I probably could have fixed them but it was time for something new). Also my father-in-law was trading in his '97 4Runner on a highlander so he sold it to me for the trade-in price which was a great deal. I wanted more than the '97 4runner had to offer (in terms of whistles and bells) but I could not pass on the deal.

I got real tired of not having awd coming from a Landcruiser and then the GC. That and the fact that it did not have a cd player, heated mirrors and some other stuff I found important. I really could not wait for the 4th gen 4runner. I knew they would have a lot more standard features and I was finally in the position to afford a new car. And lastly, being as this was my first new car, anything comparable had very bad reliability or resale value and that scared me.

 

[ckon]

Hi, Andrew,

All I can tell you is that I've been driving Toyotas since 1982 and they've NEVER let me down. They're not perfect and there are nice features on a lot of the domestics, but I'll trade some of that for the durability, reliability and resale of the Toyotas, ...and the satisfaction of owning them. They are not the tops in any one particular category, but they usually offer the greatest value when you reach the bottom line.

Another thing I've become pretty well convinced of over the years is that many manufacturers just seem to make their offering as cheap as possible and then improve it in the field with recalls, etc., when necessary, while IN MY EXPERIENCE (YMMV), Toyota generally makes their products as well as they possibly can at the price point where they enter the market. That still doesn't make them perfect, but it usually makes them perform better in the long run and it keeps me out of the dealership.

I would never want to talk you into any purchase that you weren't totally comfortable with, but just thought I'd pass on my own experience. Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[Guest]

Everyone has an opinion but you have to live with it. If you don't like the 4Runner, don't buy it.

Buy what you enjoy not what you have to be convinced to buy, especially for $38,000.

 

[Mark86]

When I was shopping for an SUV, I knew I wanted something that was a true SUV and it had to have a rugged feel to it. I remember my dad had a 1994 and then a 1996 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited which were bought brand new. The 1994 developed a leak in the rear that could not be fixed. The dealer ended up drilling a hole in the bottom so the water could drain even though my dad told them not to. He finally decided to trade it in for a 1996. He drove it out of the showroom and the power steering gave out. He barely made it to his office. My mom had to go pick him up and that took two days to fix. He also had many tranmission and electrical problems that could not get fixed. After that, guess what he traded it in for? A brand new 1996 4Runner Limited. He loved that truck. He did not miss the features of the Jeep. My dad ended up keeping that 4Runner for three years with no problems. The 4Runner was the only truck I test drove. That is the truck that I fell in love with the minute I stepped into it. Some of my friends have Jeeps, and yes they have many interesting things in them. When they are pulled over on the side of the road awaiting a tow truck, I just cruise by in my 4Runner which is criticized for not having leather seats!

 

[Jayded]

...still a great forum, but it seems as though the daily driver/non-beater 4Runners are stationed here now

So you're saying that people like myself aren't welcome here on the forum?

 

[Good Times]

Instead of having us convince you to get the Toyota (since we're not your parents ), you should tell us which way you're swaying towards.

Both are indeed quality vehicles as neither manufacturer will sell junk (there are a few mfg's out there but then again it's cheap. you get what you pay for). Anyway, I think it really boils down to how much you really want to spend for something that will either last a lifetime or a few years. I'm definitely not saying one or the other is a lemon either.

Vehicle longevity significantly determines on the owners maintenance records. If you baby it, it'll last a lifetime. If you play hard in it, it'll break down earlier.

And since you're actually planning to spend alot of $$, you should ultimately decide on a few factors:

What you plan to do w/ it? Daily Driver, Trail vehicle etc etc. This will greatly determine which vehicle is best suited for you.
Lease or Buy?
Resell in 5/10 years or keep it indefinitely?
Safety track record? (i.e. airbag, etc etc you know all of those useless stats ppl say their suv is better than another... lol if you're concerned about safety, just get a minivan! doh!)
reliability?
mpg? obviously this is lame but some ppl do pick according to this!
and the ultimate $$$ factor.

Good luck!

 

[Kanab]

Quality and DC should not be spoken in the same sentence. I've owned the products they are not in the same league with Toyota. Why do you think they have big rebates on DC products??? I know, it's because they are in such high demand that DC thought they should give people additional $$$ to buy their high demand products. Do not count on a good deal on the 4runner, no rebates and you can plan on getting maybe 10% off sticker. Check Edmunds and other resources and you will understand. At 10% off the dealer is only making a few hundred $$ profit. The Hemi engine is a gas hog and low tech. Lets have you play a role. Your an executive and need to promote one of your employees. Employee "A" (Toyota 4runner) has outstanding work reviews and great recommendations. Employee "B" (Jeep) has average reviews and the recommendations are hit and miss. During the interview you notice that employee "B" fits your personally a little better and you like his looks more than employee "A". Who will you promote? If you were ENRON you picked employee "B" as your CEO Good luck with your decision.

 

[Andrew]

Quality and DC should not be spoken in the same sentence. I've owned the products they are not in the same league with Toyota. Why do you think they have big rebates on DC products??? I know, it's because they are in such high demand that DC thought they should give people additional $$$ to buy their high demand products. Do not count on a good deal on the 4runner, no rebates and you can plan on getting maybe 10% off sticker. Check Edmunds and other resources and you will understand. At 10% off the dealer is only making a few hundred $$ profit. The Hemi engine is a gas hog and low tech. Lets have you play a role. Your an executive and need to promote one of your employees. Employee "A" (Toyota 4runner) has outstanding work reviews and great recommendations. Employee "B" (Jeep) has average reviews and the recommendations are hit and miss. During the interview you notice that employee "B" fits your personally a little better and you like his looks more than employee "A". Who will you promote? If you were ENRON you picked employee "B" as your CEO Good luck with your decision.

I loved the Enron analogy! What a great response

Well, I'll admit that I'm leaning towards the Jeep. I guess I could have been a little more specific in what I plan to do with the vehicle:
- daily driver. I drive about 15-18k a year, it's either long highway trips or urban gridlock- My driving is almost always in one of those extremes. So interior comfort is a priority for me. I found my 4Runner (3rd gen) to be weak in this regard because of the narrow interior and lack of features- the Jeep has a fancy radio, trip computer, and lots of innovative interior storage. The new Jeep looks even better in this regard. The 4th gen is a huge improvement over the 3rd gen, but is now just about "equal" to my current Jeep.
-Safety is important. The 4Runner does well in crash testing and based on Chrysler's recent vehicle performances, I expect a lot out of the new Jeep. To get side airbags, I'd have to order a 4Runner and according to the dealerships I've spoken with, even that's a shot in the dark- Toyota won't necessarily be building them with the airbags and cloth seats. I'd get a Limited, but it's at least $4,000 more than I am willing to spend right now.
-I plan to keep it for at least 4 years. The Toyota will hold its value better, I have no doubt.
-I won't tow much, but I do anticipate a move to a different state during my ownership of the vehicle, and I'll use a U-Haul trailer for that.
-Reliability. This is really what draws me to the Toyota. The Jeep is somewhat of a gamble- I'd be buying one of the very first off the line.
-Off roading. I will use it occasionally, but not regularly. I'd do EC4RJ if I bought the Toyota and probably a few Jeep Jamborees if I bought the Jeep. I doubt I'd lift.

I'm going to go test drive the Toyota again, probably next week to decide for sure, this forum has provided some great discussion and a few things I definitely want to think about. I'm leaning towards the Jeep, but it's more like 55/45!

 

[bluewolf]

I think you should go with the Jeep Grand Cherokee! People MUST be happy with them because I see literally dozens of Grands on the road every day.

Of course, you see hoards of them on the used car lots too, even the '03 and '04 models... well, there's sure a lot to choose from!

Hmmm... I wonder why there are so many Jeep Grands everywhere? Maybe it's because they carry a much cheaper price tag. You can get into a '03 Jeep Grand Limited V8 for $22,000! Wow, just a year or two ago when it was brand new it cost nearly twice that amount... what a deal!!

But why ARE they so cheap after just one or two years? And why ARE there so many late-model used Jeeps to choose from? And jeez, why does every Jeep Grand owner I run into seem so bitter and unhappy about their vehicle choice? Weird!

I had an '02 Jeep Grand, but I dumped it... took a huge loss. I won't bore you with all of the reasons. But like you said, the '05s are completely different, and what's wrong with a little $38K gamble now and again! I'd get the Jeep!!

 

[boston_kevin]

Jeep vs Toyota

I feel your pain... There are compelling arguments for each side, and like a previous post, you have to keep in mind what you are buying the vehicle for.

Getting a toyota you will get:
- a quality vehicle with a much higher resale value
- 4Runner is wider (more stable) and longer (less bounce) than the Jeep
- 4Runner weighs in a little heavier which translates into a more solid ride (less bounce)
- Available 3rd row (Limited or SR5)
- Better MPG (even with V8)
- Totally redesigned 2 years ago (2002) so almost all problems have been resolved
- Same platform as Lexus (with the V8 - same drivetrain too)
- Rollover sensing side air curtains
- Side air bags (deployed from seat) for driver and passenger in front
- Higher towing capacity
- Body on frame construction - STRONGER
- power rear window (slides up and down)
- rear heat/ac vents
- best 4wd system for offroad or the street outside of Hummer
- slightly larger fuel tank (better range with the v8)
- and this forum with a wealth of great knowledge


Getting a Jeep you will get:
- lower resale in 2-3 years
- no 3rd row seat
- same platform for the last 9 years
- new engine in this platform (still some problems???)
- less cargo space
- no side air bags (side air curtains, but no side air bags from seat)
- Unibody frame/body assembly (off road capability?, twisting with the Hemi?)
- Rain sensing wiper system
- lower gas mileage
- rear hatch/window assembly (one piece?)

The question is, if money is not a problem, and you like to the amenities of the Jeep Limited, go for the 4Runner limited ( you also get Nav, backup camera). I love Jeeps. Owned them for years, but when you consider all of the options available (and the time the average Jeep spends in the shop over it's lifetime), I couldn't justify getting a Jeep.

 

[toybox]

I found my 4Runner (3rd gen) to be weak in this regard because of the narrow interior and lack of features- the Jeep has a fancy radio, trip computer, and lots of innovative interior storage. The new Jeep looks even better in this regard. The 4th gen is a huge improvement over the 3rd gen, but is now just about "equal" to my current Jeep.

This was my impression exactly to a "T"

 

[ScottAW]

I'll add my 2 cents to this topic, as this was one of the ultimate reasons I picked the 4-Runner.

When you are paying $35,000 for a vehicle, do you really want to be bringing that vehicle to the shop to get fixes done on it? Statistically, with a Jeep/Chrysler product you WILL BE visiting the service department A LOT MORE than you would be with a Toyota product. You can't argue this fact, the numbers speak for themself.

I remember my first new vehicle I purchased, a '99 Ford Ranger XLT. Initial satisfaction was great, I loved that truck. But once 10,000 miles passed, problem after problem started showing up. Being a fix-it-yourselfer and having worked on cars all my life, I had no issues with fixing problems. But, why the hell was I making $400 car payments on a new car that was in the shop once a month?!?!? Hell, I could've spent well less than half the money on a used vehicle and fixed the same amount of problems myself.

So, it was then I decided that when I was spending that much money on a new vehicle, it better not have the same reliability as a $500 beater car. I'm sorry to say it, but Chrysler products have worse than average quality control problems, it is hurting their sales big time.

I did go and look at the Jeep GC, as well as the new Durango and Explorers. New Durango is nice, but the Q.C. issues scared me away. The GC, sorry, but it looked cheap and outdated to me, I wasn't even interested in test driving it. Plus, everyone and their neighbor has an explorer or G.C., not only would I be another cow in the herd, but my resale value would suffer as well.

4-Runner was an easy choice in my opinion. I'm as Patriotic as they come, but when it comes down to spending $35G's, I'm not going to throw my money out the window.

 

[Kanab]

ENRON, here is another alternative. Look at a used 2000-2001 Toyota Landcruiser or Lexus LX470 with 50-65K miles on it. They sell for $30-35K. If you are going to run 18K miles a year and keep it 4 years the LC/LX will have 120K-135K miles on it when you are ready to sell (just broken in). The LC/LX's are quality and will be a ride you can be proud of and enjoy. It will give you low cost service and will be worth more then any 4 year old GC Jeep with 70K miles on it any day of the week. Also you will still have factory warranty on the used LC/LX to work through any used vehicle problems. JMHO

 

[Andrew]

Well, there seems to be a lot of confusion here. The 2005 Grand Cherokee is not the same as the 2004- they share very little- redesigned platform, two new engines, new transmissions, new 4WD systems, as different as the 3rd gen and the 4th gen 4Runners, for the most part. I can almost guarantee that your impressions are based on the 2004 (WJ) Grand Cherokee, not the 2005 (WK)- unless you saw it at the NY auto show or live near Detroit and have seen a test mule running around!

That said, everyone made some excellent points regarding the 4Runner.

Basically, I just don't want to be disapointed. I like my Jeep SO much more than my 3rd gen because (for me) it's a much better vehicle. I'm in the car for long periods of time and I appreciate a thoughtful interior with lots of features- I just didn't have that in my 3rd gen.

Pitbull- I'd consider a used vehicle, but a Land Cruiser is much more vehicle than I want- just too big. I sure do love them, though- have you seen that 99 with the roof cut off behind the C-pillar, SportTrac-style? So nice!

I'm going to go test drive the 4Runners one more time. Here's what else I looked at, just to give you an idea:

-Explorer. I actually really liked it- great steering, solid (if a little stiff) ride, well laid-out interior. It just didn't connect with me- too bland.
-Touareg. Now THIS is overengineering. Absolutely beautifully built, great ride, light but responsive steering, great features. It just wasn't much fun. The V6 is slow, too- it just felt too much like something my dad would buy (he loves them).
-Pathfinder. New model on the horizon is a stylistic atrocity, but the old one was nice- just really dated now in so many ways.
-Xterra. I felt like a 17 year old.