Crawford Eco Block

[Canazes9]

Interesting discussion going on Tacoma World about the Crawford Eco Block. Crawford performance has people posting in the thread, giving explanations, logic seems sound. I think I'm going to call Crawford on Monday and order one for my wife's '13 4Runner...

Eco Block from crawford performance - Tacoma World Forums

David

 

[marshal]

Interesting discussion going on Tacoma World about the Crawford Eco Block. Crawford performance has people posting in the thread, giving explanations, logic seems sound. I think I'm going to call Crawford on Monday and order one for my wife's '13 4Runner...

Eco Block from crawford performance - Tacoma World Forums

David

Snake oil

 

[1engineer]

I'll take the OEM design. Report back and let us know how it works!

My reasoning:
A $40 part will increase your efficiency and mpg by around 10% according to the Tacoma guys. AND it increases HP?
Why don't the OEM engineers quickly add it to their engine? C'mon, 10% is HUGE. Toyota spends Billions on making their engines more efficient and we are talking only a few percent.

Logic dictates one of two things:
A. It works but will cause undesirable issues pertaining to reliability, longevity and durability.
B. It does not work when actual controlled tests are run.

Good luck everyone.

 

[mkeegan27]

i ended up skipping to the last few pages and peoples MPG did increase.....interesting!

 

[AudiTech]

All it's doing is taking away the computers ability to properly calculate load/air mass so it'll run lean. But the 02 sensors will see it running lean and adjust the fuel trims to compensate. You may see it lean out at wide open throttle and lean does create more power than running rich, the reason factory tunes always run rich under wide open throttle is because it's safer (when things lean out you can burn up valves or pistons) and heat creates NOX gases (emissions).

The only personal experience I've had with something like this is the boost tap APR makes for our (VW/Audi) gen3 2.0T TSI (in the newest versions of the GTI, A3, S3, Q3 base Q5 and A5 etc). The boost tap has vacuum nipples on it and sits in between the manifold and MAP sensor so you have a direct from the source place to hook up a boost gauge. Being a map sensor it works on pressure not flow but the IAT is built into it. When they spaced it away and pulled it out of the direct air stream it started misreading the intake air temp and in turn caused drivability problems that stemmed from ignition timing getting thrown out of whack.

For what's it's worth I wouldn't run a MAF spacer on my truck if it was free.


Edit - I typed that on my cell phone this morning, fixed the major typos

 

[STX4Runner]

I'll take the OEM design. Report back and let us know how it works!

My reasoning:
A $40 part will increase your efficiency and mpg by around 10% according to the Tacoma guys. AND it increases HP?
Why don't the OEM engineers quickly add it to their engine? C'mon, 10% is HUGE. Toyota spends Billions on making their engines more efficient and we are talking only a few percent.

Logic dictates one of two things:
A. It works but will cause undesirable issues pertaining to reliability, longevity and durability.
B. It does not work when actual controlled tests are run.

Good luck everyone.

Yeah, I like how the TacomaWorld post says Toyota sets their engines to run at 80% efficiency. Riiight; in this day in age of CAFE standards and eco wars between manufacturers, Toyota deliberately makes our engines less efficient, and a $40 part some guy in a garage makes will fix that.

 

[Canazes9]

All the answers are in the other thread, Crawford performance explains in detail how and why it works. They're not promising miracles - a very mild bump in WOT hp and a modest bump in gas mileage. I hesitated to even post over here because this is prrtty much the same reaction to every product like this. Some interesting reading in the other thread posted by the Crawford guy's....

Buy it/don't buy it, I don't care. As many people on this forum that complain about both mileage and hp of the 5th Gen's I thought there might be some interest.

David

 

[Canazes9]

Yeah, I like how the TacomaWorld post says Toyota sets their engines to run at 80% efficiency. Riiight; in this day in age of CAFE standards and eco wars between manufacturers, Toyota deliberately makes our engines less efficient, and a $40 part some guy in a garage makes will fix that.

I think if you need to read a little more carefully and pay attention to the difference's between open loop and closed loop operation.

David

 

[STX4Runner]

All the answers are in the other thread, Crawford performance explains in detail how and why it works. They're not promising miracles - a very mild bump in WOT hp and a modest bump in gas mileage. I hesitated to even post over here because this is prrtty much the same reaction to every product like this. Some interesting reading in the other thread posted by the Crawford guy's....

Buy it/don't buy it, I don't care. As many people on this forum that complain about both mileage and hp of the 5th Gen's I thought there might be some interest.

David

I appreciate you posting it; it's always interesting to see what the aftermarket comes up with. And you're right, people are constantly *****ing on here about the 4Runner's mpgs, which I don't understand. We've got a BOF 4x4 vehicle that is basically the size of a 100 Series Land Cruiser getting 20+ mpg stock and even lightly modified. That's pretty good.

 

[STX4Runner]

I think if you need to read a little more carefully and pay attention to the difference's between open loop and closed loop operation.

David

I probably didn't read enough into that stuff. But, I'll go ahead and admit most of it is way over my head anyway. I think the main takeaway for me regarding these kind of parts is there is always some trade off. If this part works it probably changes (even if only slightly) durability or reliability of some components.

 

[Canazes9]

I probably didn't read enough into that stuff. But, I'll go ahead and admit most of it is way over my head anyway. I think the main takeaway for me regarding these kind of parts is there is always some trade off. If this part works it probably changes (even if only slightly) durability or reliability of some components.

Yup, there is. The Crawford guys discuss that as well. The trade in durability and reliability is minor, but it's there.

David

 

[mo_mo]

I think if you need to read a little more carefully and pay attention to the difference's between open loop and closed loop operation.

David

Please educate us on open vs. closed loop
When the machine will currently operate in one condition over another? (Baseline)
How the addition of this component will modify when the machine will run in one condition over the other.

Please also fill us in on how this will negate the ECU learning to adjust the fuel/air maps from the O2 sensors after a couple of tanks.

If you paid me $40 and gave me one for free I still wouldn't install it!

layball:

 

[Bourbonator]

My very basic understanding of open vs closed loop is that in open loop, the ecu isn't looking to the o2 sensor for feedback info. I believe this happens when you're at, or close to, wide open throttle.

The product moves the location of the MAF sensor to trick the ecu into running the engine leaner. In closed loop, I think this effect is largely negated due to the o2 sensor feedback; however, in open loop, the ecu doesn't get the feedback from the o2 sensor and the engine continues to run leaner.

From what I understand, and I may have misinterpreted, the engine is running overly rich in all circumstances, and the product helps achieve a more efficient tune (using enough fuel, instead of too much). I think someone said something to the extent of running rich improving emissions, which could be a factor in Toyota choosing the tune that they have, instead of opting for maximum mpg and power.

I probably left stuff out.

 

[Canazes9]

Please educate us on open vs. closed loop
When the machine will currently operate in one condition over another? (Baseline)
How the addition of this component will modify when the machine will run in one condition over the other.

Please also fill us in on how this will negate the ECU learning to adjust the fuel/air maps from the O2 sensors after a couple of tanks.

If you paid me $40 and gave me one for free I still wouldn't install it!

layball:

Please check [MENTION=80472]Bourbonator[/MENTION] 's post below yours - that pretty well describes the differences between open loop and closed loop operation. The only thing he didn't mention was the slight bump in ignition timing you will get, even in closed loop operation.


The addition of this compnent shouldn't affect when the open loop / closed loop operation occurs.

As for the ECU learning and adjusting the air/fuel map in closed loop operation - it will, no one has ever implied differently. The only difference you can expect in normal light throttle, closed loop operation is a slight bump in ignition timing.

No one is holding a gun to your head, I'm not selling them, makes no difference to me if you install one or not. I am a little curious about the hostility and implied serious deleterious effects. Exactuwhat calamities do you think acan or will occur from the installation of this product?

Again, the Crawford guys answered all of these questions (and more) in detail in the other thread. It's there to read if anyone is so inclined.

David

 

[mo_mo]

Please check [MENTION=80472]Bourbonator[/MENTION] 's post below yours - that pretty well describes the differences between open loop and closed loop operation. The only thing he didn't mention was the slight bump in ignition timing you will get, even in closed loop operation.


The addition of this compnent shouldn't affect when the open loop / closed loop operation occurs.

As for the ECU learning and adjusting the air/fuel map in closed loop operation - it will, no one has ever implied differently. The only difference you can expect in normal light throttle, closed loop operation is a slight bump in ignition timing.

No one is holding a gun to your head, I'm not selling them, makes no difference to me if you install one or not. I am a little curious about the hostility and implied serious deleterious effects. Exactuwhat calamities do you think acan or will occur from the installation of this product?

Again, the Crawford guys answered all of these questions (and more) in detail in the other thread. It's there to read if anyone is so inclined.

David

No hostility in this forum. I'm glad it makes no difference to you if we install one or not

The other forum was utter chaos of people just resetting their vehicle mpg computers after 5 miles of driving and going yeah me! I read a few of the Crawford posts and laughed and yes I will laugh at you if you lose $40 to them.

Do I think any 'calamities' can occur with this? I don't see anyone implying that 'calamities' will occur, but you'll be out $40 which I can buy gas with!

Let us know how it works out for you

I'm curious what CARB thinks of this product and what 'patent' crawford claims (I couldn't find a number).

 

[Canazes9]

No hostility in this forum. I'm glad it makes no difference to you if we install one or not

The other forum was utter chaos of people just resetting their vehicle mpg computers after 5 miles of driving and going yeah me! I read a few of the Crawford posts and laughed and yes I will laugh at you if you lose $40 to them.

Do I think any 'calamities' can occur with this? I don't see anyone implying that 'calamities' will occur, but you'll be out $40 which I can buy gas with!

Let us know how it works out for you

I'm curious what CARB thinks of this product and what 'patent' crawford claims (I couldn't find a number).

Wow! If that's you not being hostile, I don't think I want to see hostile.

Have a good day!

David

 

[Donkey]

Warming temperatures and the switch to summer blend fuel is the perfect time to convince people this works.

"The manufacturer’s tune of the engine only utilizes 80% of its capability leaving room for improvement of both fuel economy and performance." LOL

To each his own and all...no thanks!

 

[Engineer]

They mentioned it was tuned, then he mentions his math isn't good, and by the way the product is multi use across many brands, engines etc. I have almost no doubt there was no "tuning" or verification of what, if any difference this type of spacer makes and while I do understand the theory of getting the MAF out of the center of the pipe (where max velocity is) It is madness to assume that OEM's left 20% of the power on the table and that a maybe $2 dollar part (PS your getting wrecked on cost.......unless they are including R&D cost hehe).

Your truck, your money

 

[Quirt]

I'll take the OEM design. Report back and let us know how it works!

My reasoning:
A $40 part will increase your efficiency and mpg by around 10% according to the Tacoma guys. AND it increases HP?
Why don't the OEM engineers quickly add it to their engine? C'mon, 10% is HUGE. Toyota spends Billions on making their engines more efficient and we are talking only a few percent.

Logic dictates one of two things:
A. It works but will cause undesirable issues pertaining to reliability, longevity and durability.
B. It does not work when actual controlled tests are run.

Good luck everyone.

A) = true, as everything does come at a cost... nothing is free! Keep in mind we are not talking about a 75% increase like from a turbocharger. The power increase will be less than 10%.

B) = false, the product was designed in 2011 and has years of testing behind it. We even ran them for a full race season on two race cars.

 

[Canazes9]

Warming temperatures and the switch to summer blend fuel is the perfect time to convince people this works.

"The manufacturer’s tune of the engine only utilizes 80% of its capability leaving room for improvement of both fuel economy and performance." LOL

To each his own and all...no thanks!

If you read that statement then you should have understood the full context in which it was made - what exactly is troubling you with this statement?

Hopefully Quirt will join in this discussion, I sent him a link...

As to the fuel mileage improvements being outright dismissed, I find the arrogance of some of the members of this forum amazing. Everybody at Tacoma World that has tried it have reported immediate improvements in gas mileage. Not one person has said it didn't work as advertised. Apparently Crawford performance was able to carefully organize a North America wide swap from winter gas to summer gas to be carefully timed with the delivery and installation of the eco blocks. I had no idea Crawford performance had that kind of power!

David